eh ... What does that mean?

CHRIST BEING THE TESTIMONY OF GOD

A. As the Living Word of God, Christ Revealing God and Being the Testimony of God in Reality

Revelation 1:5 and 3:14 show us that Christ is the testimony, that is, the testimony of God. Christ is the testimony of God because He is the Word of the living God. Whereas the Bible is the written word of God, Christ is the living word of God. John 1:1 says that in the beginning was the Word and that the Word was God. One day the Word became flesh and tabernacled among men so that men were able to behold the glory of God. This Word is Christ, who is the declaration of God, the expression of God. Therefore, Christ is the testimony of God.

B. Man Not Being Able to Know God outside of Christ; Man Being Able to Touch God Only through Christ

All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily. When Christ lived on the earth, He lived out God. Hence, Christ is the living testimony of God. Apart from Christ, man can neither know God nor find God. God is in Christ, and Christ is the embodiment of God, the testimony of God.

John 14:6-11 shows us this matter. Philip said to the Lord Jesus, “Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.” The Lord was surprised and said to Philip, “Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (vv. 8-9). In other words, the Lord was saying, “When I live before you, God is living before you; I am the living out of God.” In verse 6 He said, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.” This could be translated as, “No one can reach the Father except through Me.” This means that no one can contact God or touch God except through Him. In order for man to contact God, to touch God, and to reach God, he needs to do it through Christ and in Christ, because Christ is the embodiment of God, the testimony of God expressed.

THE HOLY SPIRIT BEING THE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST

The Holy Spirit is also the testimony of Christ.

A. The Holy Spirit, as the Transfiguration of Christ through His Death, Resurrection, Ascension, and Descension, Declaring All the Things of Christ to Men and Glorifying Christ as the Testimony of Christ

John 16:5-7 and 14:16-18 show us that after the Lord Jesus passed through death, resurrection, and ascension into the heavens, He would descend as the Spirit. Just as He is the incarnation of God, the Spirit is the transfiguration of Christ. God is in Christ, and Christ is in the Spirit. After His ascension, He came as the Spirit with all His elements. These elements include all that He is, all that He has, all that He has accomplished, and all that He has experienced; all of these elements are in the Spirit. Therefore, John 16:13-15 tells us that when the Spirit comes, He will declare Christ to us and glorify Christ. Furthermore, John 15:26 also says that when the Spirit comes, He will testify concerning Christ.

Let me give an illustration, even though it is not completely adequate. Sulfur is often present in the waters of a hot spring. The water is like the Spirit, and the sulfur in the water is like Christ in the Spirit. Before the sulfur was present in the water, there was no element of sulfur in it. But when sulfur is added to the spring water, the water has an element of sulfur in it. Thus, wherever the water flows, sulfur also flows. In like manner, the Spirit now contains all the elements of Christ. The various elements of Christ—all that He is, all that He has, all that He has accomplished, and all that He has experienced—are contained in the Spirit. For example, because He is God, He has the element of divinity; because He became a man, He has the element of humanity; because He passed through incarnation, He has the element of incarnation; and because He passed through death, He has the element of death; He resurrected and thus has the element of resurrection; He ascended and was exalted, so He also has the elements of ascension and exaltation. All of His elements are in the Spirit. When the Spirit with all these elements comes into us, the element of God comes, the element of uplifted humanity comes, and the elements of incarnation, death, resurrection, ascension, and exaltation all come into us. Therefore, we are united with God, and we have died, resurrected, ascended, and been exalted with Christ. This is similar to drinking a glass of grape juice. When we drink the juice, all of the elements of the juice come into us. It contains the element of grapes, the element of sugar, and various other elements. Once the juice comes into us, all of the elements in the juice come into us. In like manner, because the Spirit has all the elements of Christ, when the Spirit comes into us, He brings all the elements of Christ into us and testifies concerning Christ within us, letting us know the kind of person Christ is. When the Spirit comes into us and touches us within, we “taste” Christ. If there is sugar in water, we will taste the sweetness of sugar when our tongue touches the sugar in the water. In like manner, when the Spirit enters into us and touches us within, we feel glorious, holy, bright, and transcendent. What are these elements? They are Christ, because Christ is glorious, holy, bright, and transcendent. People may ask us, “What kind of person is Christ?” We can say, “Although I cannot explain, I have tasted Him within me.” People may ask, “Where is Christ?” We can say, “Although I cannot show you, there is a taste within me. I have definitely touched Christ. But I do not need to go to heaven to touch Him; He came down from heaven and He touched me within in the Spirit.” The Spirit, as Christ’s transfiguration, reveals Him within us. Therefore, as the testimony of Christ, the Spirit glorifies Christ.

B. Apart from the Holy Spirit, Man Being Unable to Know Christ; Man Needing to Be in the Holy Spirit to Be Able to Touch Christ

Apart from the Holy Spirit, there is no way for man to know Christ. Man must be in the Holy Spirit to be able to touch Christ. First Corinthians 12:3 says, “No one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit.” Those of us who are saved truly have this experience. Often when we touch the Holy Spirit within through fellowship or prayer, we spontaneously say, “Jesus is Lord! Jesus is the Lord of all!” When we say this, we feel glorious, bright, sweet, and peaceful. This indicates that we have touched Christ in the Holy Spirit. Once we are in the Holy Spirit, we touch Christ, because the Holy Spirit is the transfiguration of Christ and the testimony of Christ.

Hi Elisu,

The Bible is very clear that Salvation lies via Faith in Jesus Christ alone. And The Holy Spirit is careful to let us know it is by Grace. When you say Baptism and Holy Communion is a must for Salvation, it becomes of works. This is where many Christians becomes confuse. Is it of Grace + work? or Grace Alone? The Bible answers it in

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

You cannot mix both.


Well Yes our Faith should transform into works but you must understand ours work is not justification before God for Salvation but is for Man to see it as a testimony that we walk our talk.

Conventional Christians who does not have proper revelation of James 2 have always misquote this to justify Salvation when it is not. The same goes for Baptism and Holy Communion. I've explained
Why Holy Communion is not a requirement for Salvation in my previous post, it's just couple of pages before. But here is the re-post.



In 1 Corinthians 11, many have interpreted in the sense, before taking Holy Communion (Eucharist to you), you have to ensure that you have no sin. Otherwise you bring judgement and death upon yourself. Conventional Church would ask you to search your heart to see if you have any sins and confess before partaking linking it to requirement for Salvation. But If you read carefully the whole context of 1 Corinthians 11, that is not what it says.



Paul was addressing this particular problem (highlighted in red) during holy communion, there are those who treat it as meal time, instead of The Lord's supper where they should have taken a proper meal at home before coming. In this way it is disrespecting the Holy Communion. (1 Corinthians 11:22) Because there are some who could not wait due to hunger, went ahead and eat first without waiting for the rest. Some was even drunk. All these speaks of people taking advantage of the Holy Communion as meal time and disregarding the significance of it's meaning.

This is what the Holy Spirit meant about not discerning the Lord's Body that brought judgement upon those disrespecting in this manner. It's not talking about past sins or salvation. In 1 Corinthians 11:30 it talks about weak, sick and asleep. Meaning to say when you partake it in a reverent and properly discerning the Lord's Sacrifice, the opposite too will be true which is, Strong, Health and Alive. That means the Holy Communion brings healing.





The word "you see" is mentioned twice(highlighted in red) in this passage, who is it that the Holy Spirit is emphasizing and referring to? The answer is all of us. It is not towards the Lord.


As for Baptism by water, give me some time, I will explain later.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 20 2013, 11:47 AM

A generation after Jesus’ death, when the Gospels were written, the Romans had destroyed the Jerusalem Temple (in 70 C.E.); the most influential centers of Christianity were cities of the Mediterranean world such as Alexandria, Antioch, Corinth, Damascus, Ephesus and Rome. Although large number of Jews were also followers of Jesus, non-Jews came to predominate in the early Church. They controlled how the Gospels were written after 70 C.E

Yet today, there are few Biblical scholars– from liberal skeptics to conservative evangelicals- who believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John actually wrote the Gospels. Nowhere do the writers of the texts identify themselves by name or claim unambiguously to have known or traveled with Jesus.

Even if there was a historical Jesus lying back of the gospel Christ, he can never be recovered. If there ever was a historical Jesus, there isn’t one any more. All attempts to recover him turn out to be just modern remythologizings of Jesus. Every “historical Jesus” is a Christ of faith, of somebody’s faith. So the “historical Jesus” of modern scholarship is no less a fiction.

It’s true enough that the majority of Biblical historians do not question the historicity of Jesus – but then again, the majority of Biblical historians have always been Christian preachers, so what else could we expect them to say?

Many modern Biblical archaeologists now believe that the village of Nazareth did not exist at the time of the birth and early life of Jesus. There is simply no evidence for it.

copy pasta from Atheist website?

http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/jesus-...-existed-at-all

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/rob...ce/fiction.html

Tak payah la. Kalau Aku jawap pun, bukan nya ko paham.

Already state that Nazareth exist, you just copy this line as a reply?

Ni mcm reply kat robot.

BTW Christianity is not just about texts. Try and brain that if you understand.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 20 2013, 03:50 PM

Plagiarism spotted. Shame on lowyat.

Anyway, I understand why people workship God. Just for one main purpose = to be blessed. Honestly, its shame too to live in imagination.

Our living personal testimony/miracles that correspond to the truth of the gospel defy all these allegations from atheist.

We have millions of believers if not billions who can attest to this. There goes the word, imagination.


BTW, while it's true certain quarters who lacks knowledge may see God as such but To be blessed is really nothing wrong in of itself.

It's just one aspect, it's not the conclusive goal.

When you know God and have a relationship with Him, You will worship Him inevitably because of the revelation of His goodness and love for you.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 20 2013, 04:18 PM

ignore those historical lahh... Just believe n use faith ? is that difficult ? :-)

If he have google it in wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth

The evidences are all there

The earliest mention of Nazareth in ancient sources is the 4th century AD - that is also about the time the Bible was organized into a religious document.
Nazareth is not mentioned in any ancient texts other than the Bible. There were 63 towns listed in Galilee in the Talmud. Nazareth is not one of them.
Josephus mentioned 45 cities in Galilee, Nazareth was not one of them.
There is a cemetery under the Church of the Annunciation. A cemetery was never located in a Jewish village, it was prohibited by the Torah. Those tombs date to around 70ad - the time that the canonical gospels were being written and redacted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth


Nazareth is about 25 kilometres (16 mi) from the Sea of Galilee (17 km as the crow flies) and about 9 kilometres (5.6 mi) west from Mount Tabor.

The United Nations and world geography accepts and recognized Nazareth.

If Atheist cannot accept it, it's their delusional problem.

Haha ... actually the the earliest reference to Nazareth outside the Christian gospels, by Sextus Julius Africanus (c. 200 AD), speaks of “Nazara” as a village in "Judea" and locates it near an as-yet unidentified “Cochaba.”

Nazareth is so small at that time .... probably uninhabited ... why would it mentioned as one of the big towns ..... go figures E. Meyers & J. Strange, of his book, Archaeology, the Rabbis, & Early Christianity estimates only 480 .... small kampunglar!!

The bible describes an earth that is a dome covered flat and stationary island-like surface that is the center of the universe in which it is magically suspended.
You want me to believe that?

Who is the father of Joseph? Jacob or Heli?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Haha ...

Here the genealogy says that "Jacob begot Joseph," but Luke 3:23 says, "Joseph, the son of Heli." Luke's record was "according to law" (a literal translation of "so it was thought" in Luke 3:23), indicating that Joseph was not actually the son of Heli but was reckoned his son according to the law. Joseph was the son-in-law of Heli, Mary's father. This may be a case according to Num. 27:1-8 and 36:1-12, in which a regulation was made by God that if any parents had only daughters as heirs, the inheritance would go to the daughters, who would then have to marry a man of their own tribe in order to keep their inheritance within that tribe. Even such a regulation in the Old Testament is related to the genealogy of Christ, showing that all Scripture is a record of Christ.

Research ... research ...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 20 2013, 05:16 PM

While I agree believers of Christ Jesus have every single chance of salvation, I do not agree with this not needing to receive Eucharist to receive Eternal Life. I hope bro unknown warrior can see my point of view ..which Ill back up with Scriptures.

Protestants believe when Jesus said Luke 22:19 'do this in remembrance of me'
It is a symbol.

Jewishly (Historical Account)
There is no record in any of the gospels concerning the Last Supper of anyone present eating a regular Passover Lamb; rather they ate a consecrated piece of motzah bread that Jesus said was His Body, and we all know that Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God. And always remember, the Jews had to physically eat the Passover Lamb to complete the Passover meal, not a symbol of a Passover Lamb.

If the Eucharist is really only a "symbol," then Jesus and His followers didn't really understand anything about the Passover Meal, and that is very hard for any Christian to fathom. Some people say that when Jesus said "This IS My Body," that he was speaking metaphorically, like when He said "I am the Door," or "I am the Vine."

Now think, in the cases of the door and vine analogies, no one said "How can this man become a wooden door or a climbing plant. BUT, in John 6:52, His disciples did say, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" In other words, His followers understood Him EXACTLY to be speaking literally, not figuratively, in regards to the Eucharist.

He even let them leave Him over this "hard saying," and did not go to them and explain to them that he was speaking symbolically, like he did with other parables that he had to explain (like the parable of the sower and the seed).

Really think, did He [Jesus] say, six times, “eat my flesh,” in order to offer a vague misunderstood parable, without offering a concise and accurate teaching? Now, what was His response to the Jews who asked, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"



Remember, Jesus [God] cannot lie or deceive....



He took an OATH and SWORE [Amen Amen] that we must eat His flesh, and even added that we must drink His blood to have life in us. He also stated that if we do not do so, we have no life in us. There is nothing even remotely resembling a parable here. He corrected their mumbling, and even allowed those that could not accept this teaching to leave Him, never to follow Him again (cf. John 6:66), as “many drew back and no longer walked with him.”

1 Corinthians 10: 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion of the body of Christ?

Symbolic? Or Real Presence?
Jesus said at the Last Supper, “This IS my body” (Matthew 26:26), not “This represents my body.”

Paul says that if you eat the Eucharist without discerning THE BODY (1 Corinthians 11:29-30), then you eat it to your own condemnation, and could get sick and die. Yes, like u said, not taking it seriously.

Jesus Himself says His Flesh is real food and His blood is real drink (John 6:55).

Just like the Adam physically ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and died (Genesis 3:3-17), just so, we are to physically eat Jesus’ (the new Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:45) flesh (John 6:51-56) from His tree (the Cross, Acts 5:30) and live forever.

When Jesus says that “the flesh is useless” (John 6:63), He is not referring to His flesh (John 6:51: 54: 55: 56), but rather our human flesh in general. Otherwise, it would mean that Jesus’ flesh is useless, which would negate everything He just said in the entire chapter of John 6.

'As much as you dont see oxygen, The Real Presence of Jesus is hidden in the Eucharist EXACTLY like the divinity of Jesus was hidden in His manhood.'

Nobody who looked at Jesus could tell he was God by looking at him (except during the Transfiguration), and the Eucharist on every altar of every Catholic/othodox/lutheran and anglican Church is just like that. You can't tell by looking at a consecrated host or the Precious Blood that it is truly Jesus, but, IT IS!



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Early Christians and Transubstantiation

Here’s an interesting fact.
One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism.
Why? You guessed it.
They heard that this sect regularly met to eat and drink human blood.

Did the early Christians say: “wait a minute, it’s only a symbol!”? Not at all.

When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: “For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ’s body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages, until a guy called Zwingli - claimed to be inspired by Holy Spirit, questions the Real Presence of Body and Blood. In fact, Luther argued vehemently with him, insisting that that is the real body and blood of Christ, after the incantation through Persona Cristi in the Mass.

In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I’d look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I’d still substantially be the same old guy as when I started.

St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can’t be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ’s body and blood.

A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the “sub-stance”, what “stands-under” the surface, came to be called “transubstantiation.”

What makes this happen? The power of God’s Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: “This is my Body, This is my Blood.” Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read “Spirit”) whips over the surface of the water and God’s Word resounds. “Let there be light” and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation.

But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: “you are what you eat?” The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.

adapted from Marcelino D'Ambrosio, Theologian Professor (Catholic of course)
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This post has been edited by Jedi: Feb 20 2013, 10:36 PM

Fear of sin because people say there is a hell and after life.

People thank GOD;
Kena Toto because God blessed.
Healed from sick because of God blessed.
Winning in Football match because of God blessed.
Able to reach office in time because of God blessed.
Able to avoid car crashed because of God blessed.

People say GOD plan;
Those thousand and thousand people died of AIDS and hunger everyday because God love them and its part of His plan. Or people say its punishment from the God for HUMAN ACT.


GOD love you because you said it. People said it. God didn't say it. You people think behalf of God?




This post has been edited by Rotoworldz: Feb 20 2013, 05:28 PM

and I also would here clear a misunderstanding that Priests re-sacrifice (and re-crucify) Jesus through our sacrifices in the altar.

Priests REPRESENT the sacrifice of Jesus, just as Jesus REPRESENTs his Body and Blood in the Passover.

This is what St John saw from His revelation in heaven in which all of us rooted in Christ will celebrate:

Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven's identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church's identification on earth.

Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.

Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.

Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as "alter Christuses" (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.

that is why I dont believe this as 'useless' Tradition as prophetjul said because to me everything is meaningful in Mass.

The origin of evil is not the Creator but the creature's freely choosing sin and selfishness

Who's to say we are good people? The question should be not "Why do bad things happen to good people?" but "Why do good things happen to bad people?" If the fairy godmother tells Cinderella that she can wear her magic gown until midnight, the question should be not "Why not after midnight?" but "Why did I get to wear it at all?" The question is not why the glass of water is half empty but why it is half full, for all goodness is gift. The best people are the ones who are most reluctant to call themselves good people. Sinners think they are saints, but saints know they are sinners. The best man who ever lived once said, "No one is good but God alone."

Who's to say suffering is all bad? "The man who has not suffered, what can he possibly know, anyway?" Suffering can work for the greater good of wisdom. It is not true that all things are good, but it is true that "all things work together for good to those who love God."

All our sufferings are transformable into Jesus' work, our passion into his action. That is why he instituted prayer, says Pascal: to bestow on creatures the dignity of causality.

We are really his body; the Church is Christ as my body is me. That is why Paul says his sufferings are making up in his own body what Christ has yet to endure in his body (Col 1:24).

You see, the Christian views suffering, as he views everything, in a totally different way, a totally different context, than the unbeliever. He sees it and everything else as a between, as existing between God and himself, as a gift from God, an invitation from God, a challenge from God, something between God and himself. Everything is relativized. I do not relate to an object and keep God in the background somewhere; God is the object that I relate to. Everything is between us and God. Nature is no longer just nature, but creation, God's creation. Having children is procreation. My very I is his image, not my own but on loan.

What then is suffering to the Christian? It is Christ's invitation to us to follow him. Christ goes to the cross, and we are invited to follow to the same cross. Not because it is the cross, but because it is his. Suffering is blessed not because it is suffering but because it is his. Suffering is not the context that explains the cross; the cross is the context that explains suffering. The cross gives this new meaning to suffering; it is now not only between God and me but also between Father and Son. The first between is taken up into the Trinitarian exchanges of the second. Christ allows us to participate in his cross because that is his means of allowing us to participate in the exchanges of the Trinity, to share in the very inner life of God.

Finally, no sane person wants hell to exist. No sane person wants evil to exist. But hell is just evil eternalized. If there is evil and if there is eternity, there can be hell. If it is intellectually dishonest to disbelieve in evil just because it is shocking and uncomfortable, it is the same with hell. Reality has hard corners, surprises, and terrible dangers in it. We desperately need a true road map, not nice feelings, if we are to get home. It is true, as people often say, that "hell just feels unreal, impossible." Yes. So does Calvary.

Ok. earth is flat and who is Saint Joachim?

Mark 15:25 says “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.”

John 19:14-16 says “…about the sixth hour…they cried out…crucify him….Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”

Please do referencing for the sources.