long explanation is ok, just not toooooo long

I still learning here don't tembak me.

Sorry, for the sake of complete understanding of the Bible, it is necessary to write in long. I will of course, try my best to be concise, but all information must be complete.

The problem is If I write it short, I cant convey my message fully. Now that is disrespectful to myself and to the people I want to convey my message.

Problem is yours is too long.

you got learn to send simple messages

in a way people get it.

I don't think there's that many people who actually read short book format in a forum like this.

you see pehkey's devotion?

Simple but easily understood.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 1 2013, 05:22 PM

First and foremost, I agree with Prophetjul. Babbling brings no purpose. No edification.

Rationally saying:

The charism "Speaking in Tongues" is only used to instruct unbelievers in their native language. It has no other function or purpose. The instruction offered is the edification of the charism.

I'll entertain this idea, the hypothetical absurdity, the what if of Saint Paul: to "Speak in the Language of Angels"

Who would be instructed (edified)?

The Angels, infused with perfect knowledge, that serve God, whom have a dwelling place in Heaven, are forever in good standing. Surely, we are not evangelizing or instructing them... that would be absurd!

The Angels, infused with perfect knowledge, that do not serve God, whom no longer have a dwelling place in Heaven, are forever in bad standing. Surely, we are not instructing or evangelizing them... as that too would be absurd!

Who benefits? If the angels had an audible non-human language and/or we could imitate it in any manner, a single utterance, what would be the purpose?

It serves no purpose. First and foremost, they all [the angels] know our languages, therefore understanding everything we say already. All the angelic spirits believe (more so than we do); the heavenly and the hellish, the triumphant and the fallen. None are unaware of the Truth. The angelic would not be edified, the believer would not be edified, and the unbeliever would not be edified. Neither moral instruction or salvific knowledge would be obtained by anyone attempting to perform such an absurdity as "angelic tongues", just to entertain the idea.

Since when Speaking in tongues is to edify others?

Purpose of Gift of Tongue to certain men

Truly, Truly... the “Gift of Tongues” is a real GIFT of Heaven, and for the expressed purpose of communicating the "Gospel" to others that do not speak the same language. Gifts are given only to those who are filled with the Spirit of God, to do His work. Not everyone is given the same gift, and no one who glorifies themself has the Spirit within them, rather the sin of pride abides. Recall the episode of Peter and John when they confronted Simon, who wrongly wanted power for the sake of power (cf. Acts 8:14-25). When we seek such things; for money, fame, affection or for the mere sake of power, we do so with a heart full of bitterness, captive to sin.

Scripturally:

What point is Paul trying to get across to the reader?
Ø (1Corinthians 13:1), “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.”


Pentecostal = Charismatic Movement (for those who dont know)

Charismatic theology assumes that Paul is teaching that people can and do speak in an angelic language. This certainly would be a language unknown to man. However, in every single biblical encounter that man had with an angel, he never had a problem understanding or communicating with them. So, if there were some angelic language, this would be the only scriptural reference to it. It is important to understand that in this passage Paul is not teaching that we can speak in an angelic language. Scripture never refers to tongues in this manner. The context reveals to us what Paul is actually trying to teach. Paul said "If" I speak the tongues of angels, and do not have love, it means nothing. He said he would only be making unnecessary noise. He is not telling us that anyone at all has the ability to speak angelic languages, but that even "If" it were possible it would be completely useless without Love.

Paul makes a similar statement in regards to the importance of love in the very next verse:
Ø (1Corinthians 13:1-2), “If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”

Again Paul is making a hypothetical absurdity to show that love should be the motivating factor behind all the gifts. "If" he had the gift of ALL prophecy and understand ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge, and even "If" he had the Faith to move mountains, but did not have Love, then he would be nothing.

One could argue that Paul represents one of the greatest characters in the entire Bible. He certainly was given special gifts by God (Acts 19). If anyone has ever had enough Faith to move a mountain, certainly Paul would have been one of them. Yet, the Scripture does not teach that any saint has had these gifts. Paul understood he did not have these gifts, but rather, he said "IF" he did, and did not have Love, it would be a meaningless Faith. Likewise, to understand ALL mysteries and possess ALL knowledge would be an admirable trait, but Paul only said "IF" it were possible to do so, without Love it would be meaningless.

In verse 12, Saint Paul tells us clearly that he only knew in “part.” Take him at his own word, it reveals that he did not possess ALL knowledge. Using this example demonstrates that to suggest he did anytime he said "IF" during his short Litany of Absurdities was not his purpose. Rather, he was trying to show that without Love, even the grandest of imaginative and fantastical achievments would serve no purpose. The next verse used by Saint Paul is also relevant:
Ø (1Corinthians 13:3), “If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.”


If anyone is under the impression that Saint Paul was teaching that we have the ability to speak in angelic languages, they would also have to believe we should all have enough Faith to move mountains and have the ability to understand ALL mysteries. They must then also consider giving ALL they have to the poor and surrendering their body to the flames. Obviously, Saint Paul is not teaching this should be the lifestyle of ALL, or any Christians! Saint Paul certainly never ordered such a thing, nor wanted anyone to die, and there is definitely no mandate here from him for us to do so. His point was again, that "IF" he did those things, without love, they meant nothing. Likewise, even "IF" he could speak in the tongues of angels (this would be assuming they had a language), without Love it would be worthless.


Saint Paul never teaches that we are to attempt speaking in some form of angelic language. Not once does he imply this idea. In fact, the context had nothing to do with angelic languages. It as an instruction concerning the condition of the heart. When they [the Corinths] exercised their spiritual gifts, no matter what gifts were to manifest, they were to do so in Love.

no. read again. I said it does not edify others and also self - if did not fall under the strict parameter explained by St Paul, and without love.

This is what most people who are encouraged to go to pentecostals and hopped into the Speak in TOngues bandwagon when in truth, not all have the gift, some just follow out of group sake shalidasha bambiobna shiladahbashada

Hey, I could speak in tongues during prayer with the pentecostals during our cell group when they say Bro u have the gift, just let the Holy Spirit edify you , speak and praise the Lord in your own tongues!!!

when deep down I know I dont, and they keep pressing on during prayer, I wont fake it for the sake of glorifying God for I know, it is not true purpose, fake, and putting on a show.


The converts in Corinth were in danger of coveting the idea of the "Gift of Tongues" for personal glory, desired for unjustified reasons.

Sadly today, like in the days of Paul, many mistakenly believe it makes them appear more holy or important.

Saint Paul corrects this view, offering words of wisdom and understanding. If no one understands the language, then one does not communicate Truth, thus it does not fulfill the original purpose for why the "Gift of Tongues" is offered. At least in silence one can meditate for personal edification, but to utter non-sensical blabber edifies nobody.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Mar 1 2013, 11:12 PM

Sigh, bruder, you're arguing out of context.

I'll explain to you tonight. later tonight.

I am saying that in my experience with Pentecostals, some have placed the worship team above God, gifts of Spirit above God.

When one becomes more concerned about the gifts than the Gift giver, one's understanding is misplaced. ALWAYS. God is our Father.
Which one of us (who acting as a parent) would like our children to be focused on the gifts that we give them rather than our love for them?

The gift is supposed to be a manifestation of our love--it is meant to draw the recipient nearer to the giver...until eventually the gift is not what the child seeks, but the attention of the loving parent.

We should not be seeking this and asking for this, but should be seeking God. It is up to God's grace as to who is enabled with a Spiritual gift.

Spiritual gifts are meant to enhance our faith and meant to be used to build up the Body of Christ--they should not be the sole thing that we seek.

This is misuse and misunderstanding. <-- and a wrong way to evangelise. Not all have the gifts.

Yes I agree that He encourages to pray in tongues, but you misinterpret what he said, he did not say everyone . Only some have this gift received according to his parameters. .

However, Paul WARNS us that tongue-speaking is not always a gift of the Spirit, but may originate out of spiritual PRIDE and IMMATURITY.
This is why Paul called the Corinthians immature (1 Cor. 3:1-3; 14:20), and said they were seeking the wisdom of men and not God (1 Cor. 2:5,13; 3:18).
Many people in the Corinthian church CLAIMED to have the gift of tongues, but were ACTUALLY MIMICKING the divine gift in order to gain ascendancy in the church. This caused arrogance, dissensions and jealousies among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:3; 4:6-7,18; 5:2; 11:17-22).

Tongue-speaking can ALSO have DEMONIC origins. When people are unfaithful and motivated by PRIDE AND NOT LOVE for God, God can allow demons to enter the church to punish the unfaithful. These demons can appear holy and good, and inspire tongue-speaking and other speech, but they are really deceivers who wish to confuse the faithful and lead them away from the truth (cf. Ezek. 14:6-11; 1 Kings 22:22-23). Paul warns that some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1).

This is why John tells us to “TEST the spirits to see whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1).

Therefore, tongue-speaking can be a gift of the Holy Spirit, or may be of human or demonic origin.

Precisely.

Tongue-speaking has STRICT PARAMETERS.

(a) The person who speaks in tongues should pray for the power to interpret his own tongue (1 Cor. 14:13), or have someone who has the gift of interpretation present to interpret the tongue (1 Cor. 14:27). If the tongue cannot be interpreted, the person is to remain silent (1 Cor. 14:28). Therefore, tongues should not be unintelligible utterances, but should be understood (1 Cor. 14:6-12).

(b) In a congregation, only two or three people at most should speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14:27), and each must SPEAK IN TURN. This is the case even though there may be hundreds or even thousands of people in a church. The many Protestant churches that call upon many people, even hundreds during a service, to speak in tongues contravenes Paul’s divine mandate, and raises doubts about its authenticity.

© The tongue-speaking must be done for the edification of the Church (1 Cor. 14:5,26). Paul says that a person who speaks in tongues edifies himself (1 Cor. 14:4) which is good, but Paul also says tongues must edify the Church. This is why Paul requires one to interpret the tongue, and why Paul says only two or three at the most should speak in tongues during an assembly. A MASS PROLIFERATION of tongue-speaking in an assembly would LEAD TO CONFUSION. This would not be of divine origin because Paul says, in connection with tongue-speaking, that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

(d) After setting the parameters of tongue-speaking and warning against avoiding confusion, Paul says that “women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak but should be subordinate, even as the law says” (1 Cor. 14:34). This means that women are not allowed to speak in tongues in church. Paul is underscoring that this is a divine command from God when he ends his statement with “even as the law says.” Again, many Protestant churches contravene this divine command by allowing women to speak “in tongues” in their assemblies.

(e) Paul teaches that a proliferation of tongue-speaking in a church may actually be a sign of unbelief and God’s ensuing judgment upon them. When Paul teaches the Corinthians about the proper use of tongues (1 Cor. 14:21), he quotes from Isaiah 28:11-12: “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” Paul’s use of Isaiah is significant because he is referring to the apostate Jews of the 8th century right before they were destroyed by the Assyrians. To punish the Jews, God first allowed the Assyrians to speak in foreign tongues to them to confuse them before they were ultimately destroyed. God’s judgment being revealed in the form of foreign tongues was first prophesied to Israel in the 15th century, B.C. (see Deut. 28:49-50). Remember also how God sent unintelligible tongues to punish His people for their lack of faith at the tower of Babel (Genesis 11).


Therefore, Paul is warning the Corinthians that their ABUSE of tongue-speaking is a sign of God’s judgment against them. These abuses included many people speaking in tongues, out of turn, without an interpreter, and for PRIDE and not the edification of the church. This is why Paul says that “tongues are a SIGN…FOR UNBELIEVERS” (1 Cor. 14:22). This is the same “sign” that God gave the unbelieving Jews before they were punished.

This is also why Paul says that unbelievers look at the whole Corinthian church speaking in tongues and conclude that they “are mad” (1 Cor. 14:23). Paul is telling the Corinthians that their abuse of tongues makes them look insane, and this is a sign of their unbelief (that is why tongues are a “sign for unbelievers”; the “unbelievers” were the Corinthians themselves). This is the same reason why Jesus spoke in parables, to further harden the hearts of those who did not believe in Him, as a punishment for their lack of faith (Matt. 13:13-15).

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Thanks!

I'll respond on speaking in tongues in later part of my post because you seemed to repeat it there.

What I want to bring to your attention about speaking Angels Language.

First do not mistake me for charismatic and whatever denominations. I do not subscribe myself belonging to whatever denominations neither do I claim to belong to whatever charismatic movement.

Whenever somebody talks about the Christian Faith, I rely on the Holy Spirit in me to warn me if it's in line with scripture or not.

BY God's grace, it happens every time, God gives me verses to explain and to counter check.

My Bible knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit. God in his grace speaks to me because I believe in Him naturally. I have simple Faith.

You don't have to explain about Angels language to me because I know Paul was replying tongue in cheek.

Speaking in tongues is not angels language. Well as far as the scripture is concerned, I've not seen whatever reference to it yet.

So can we drop this, oh you charismatic people thing? Anyway what's wrong with Charismatic? They are God's people too as much as you want Catholics to be.

Okay?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 2 2013, 12:44 AM

okay, nothing much for me to say here. It's a repeat.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 2 2013, 12:44 AM

Sheesh I would appreciate if you could just summarised the same thing and not repeat it.

Ok one matter, need to correct you on this.

Practically I wouldn't say it's right for the fella who said to you, hey you can speak in tongues just like that.

It's given through laying of hand and prayer. I'm sure you heard Baptism of the Holy Spirit? ( 1 Corinthians 12:13 and hinted in 2 Timothy 1:6 )

Wrong.

One thing I practise is not to judge people who seek the gifts of God because it is scriptural.

We may never know whether the person actually seek the gift more than God or is actually grounded with God but yet at the same time desire spiritual gifts.

Since we do not know, we shouldn't judge.

The problem with your type of thought is it's similar to Prophetjul's "Don't you dare talk about spiritual stuff, you got to love God more! the problem with you people, is that you don't love God!) While shaking your fist to the congregation.

1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

If you believe scripture is the word God, there you have it, God wants you to eagerly desire spiritual gift. Yes Yes I know you're going to say about the Love part, that I know.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 2 2013, 01:05 AM

actually, I support Charismatic Movement, especially Catholic Charismatic Movement.

I never said that I am against. I am saying that not all, have the gift of speak in tongues. I am also saying that when one do so, one should do it in the parameters that St Paul lined out.

I am also saying, we have to be humble even if we have those gifts.

and I am also implying my concern, that when pentecostal evangelists gather people to prayer, they expect everyone to speak in tongues, and some who had no clue of it, after one or two sermons on Acts of the Apostles, start to follow babbling with their prayer group even though they do it unnaturally - it became a habit. If I had not finish reading the Bible and go in as a new believer, I would do the same bambina shah shalidashah shilakamashah. You see, the gift is to serve our Lord. Not all pentecostals are doing it right, some are so heavily into greatness of evangelisation.

The context of the Bible got thrown out.

No doubt, the gift is real.

I have heard of testimony from pastors and priests of the real speak in tongues. In Ireland, a priest was praying for a Malaysian couple and laying of hands to bless them and together they repeated 'Our Father'. Upon finishing prayer, the malaysian couple got awe-shocked, asking how did he knew the Malay language.

The Priest said he was praying in English language.

So far to date: I only accept this as the real gift of speak in tongues.

And you are right, I am in no place to judge. Thank you for this reminder. However this is a discussion so I might put out personal experiences, and I will watch my writing

while you are a great advocator of grace, I am a great advocator of Love.

The Lord only looks at the love which we do our actions, not at the greatness nor the difficulty of it, nor is our successes.

Nonsense.

None of the scripture you provided relates it to speaking in tongues that come from spiritual pride and immaturity.

Yes it talks about worldliness but somehow I don't know why you link to speaking in tongues when It's not there.

1 Corinthians. See all the chapters you provided. (1 Cor. 3:1-3; 14:20) / (1 Cor. 2:5,13; 3:18) / (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:3; 4:6-7,18; 5:2; 11:17-22) Nothing in there relates or talks about speaking in tongues.

Brother, you should be careful when you talk about God's word to the public, don't simply say things if you don't understand.

You quote all those passages from the old testament (cf. Ezek. 14:6-11; 1 Kings 22:22-23), what in the world has it got to do with speaking in tongues?

None of it mention speaking in tongues can be demonic.

They are talking about different context and different subjects.

I'll give you the benefit of doubt;

Maybe I miss something here, why don't you pull out what verse then we talk.

Honestly I'm a bit headache when you repeat what prophetjul says when I've already answer it and even highlighted it largest font size to emphasize what Paul was talking about.

For the umpteenth time, (sigh) Paul is not discouraging speaking in tongues in a congregation.

What He's discouraging is speaking in tongues to another believers.

HERE

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

do you see that "you"? That is the key point.


All the rest are repeats, malas want to repeat answer, if you don't mind.