No we dont. As a matter of fact there have been at least 5 Eucharistic Miracles to Doubting Thomas like you who resents Catholic Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano <---- Not even Scientist can Disprove it.

And no, We dont worship Mary. If you want to believe so because of anti-CC sites you have visited, be my guest.

We may have doctrinal differences, but I certainly wont go my way into it in a public forum. Peace be with you.

Quote It Fully if you want to be scriptural

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.


Obviously you did not bother to read what I posted but to selective pick Scriptures that you see fit as Romish when indeed it was written so.

It was not even A Romish CATHOLIC tradition to begin with. All the Early Christians BELIEVED in it.

Did the early Christians say: “wait a minute, it’s only a symbol!”? Not at all.

One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism.
Why? You guessed it.
They heard that this sect regularly met to eat and drink human blood.

In fact 2/3 of the worlds Christian, Catholics Orthodox(Greek Syriac), Egyptian Coptic, Nestorians, Anglicans even LUTHERANS believe in Transubstantiation.

You are implying that all those who lived before you are wrong, and you are right? Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ’s body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages, until a guy called Zwingli - claimed to be inspired by Holy Spirit, questions the Real Presence of Body and Blood.

During the last supper, Jesus declared that He was going to remain with his disciples under the form of bread and wine. In the institution of the Eucharist, Jesus consecrates the bread and wine with the words “this is my body”(Luke 22:19) and “this is my blood” (Luke 22:20). His Flesh is real food and His blood is real drink (John 6:55).

Jesus states this as an absolute, and is in no way left up to interpretation. “This is a hard saying who can listen to it?” (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, “Don’t go – I was just speaking metaphorically!”

Do this in remembrance of me” (Luke 22:19). It is interesting to note, that the word remembrance in the Hebrew sense is not a word meaning “to recall a time in the past,” as it is generally used. Rather, the word remembrance means “to call forth the past into the present.” In other words, Jesus was instructing His apostles to bring this event into the present, which is what the priest does at each Mass.

Jesus preached the Gospel in front of hundreds of Disciples in John 6 and they left him saying, "How can this man give us His Flesh to Eat"...They understood full well what Christ meant and Christ left no "Human Option" on the table. No "come back" plan. No lay away option.

Whenever Jesus preached, he preached the Gospel. And John 6 included the Gospel. There cannot be a single shred of doubt about that teaching on that day even a moment. Jesus had a Divine mandate to correct his Followers and he didn't. He let them go thinking exactly as Catholics believe today. "The Bread I WILL Give Is My Flesh so that the World may Live"... Notice, "Will give" is in the future tense describing the Last Supper. If this word had symbolic meaning it would be said "The Bread I GIVE is My Flesh..."... But it wasn't what he said, was it?

So, we are not imagining really. The power of God’s Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: “This is my Body, This is my Blood.” Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read “Spirit”) whips over the surface of the water and God’s Word resounds. “Let there be light” and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_miracle - Fact is I trust in God and in What He Said. And all these miracles u may say as UNbiblical and SATANIC. But Hey, Satans dont have this much power where the miracle mystery stays hundreds of years after its transformation isn't it? Which we call Transubstantiation and you call - Imagination. I dont follow Romish traditions blindly, but I too, do hear the word of God.

Obviously you know very little about Catholicism.
"Most people really don't really hate the Catholic Church; they hate what they think is the Catholic Church."

Catholics consist not just ROMISH.

Western Tradition:
Latin Church

Byzantine Tradition:
Melkite Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Romanian Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Croatian Greek Catholic Church
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
Russian Catholic Church
Slovak Greek

Antiochian or West Syrian Tradition:
Maronite Church
Syriac Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

Chaldean or East Syrian Tradition:
Chaldean Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church

Armenian Tradition:
Armenian Catholic Church

Alexandrian Tradition:
Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church

The Bride of Christ consists of so much more

In fact, there were instances of people who just want to live on Eucharist alone and refuses bread on earth. Doctors call this: Anorexia Mirabilis. Miraculously they survive and have no diseases. You can search it up. It is no less disbelieving that to believe in Pentecostal 'speak in tongues' and 'Diamonds falling from the sky' do they?

This was the problem of history and problem of men, Let this be.

I wish to drop this. If you think 2 thirds of Christians on earth are having useless traditions, then dont try to pick a fight. It lands you in no good shoes. The fact is Zwingli and you protested and called it imagination. And if you think we are just eating wafers, then this is what I can present to you, that I stand firm and believe in what Jesus said of His Body and Blood as True Flesh and True Drink, YET, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ as showed here:


You never wanted to understand why Catholics believe something differently than you... You just wanted to pick a fight.. and you wanted to try to prove a catholic wrong. Why not just agree to disagree...

Like me and Bro Unknown Warrior, we have differences but we do respect each others opinion. Talk about it civil-ly, after all, we are bros n sis. Unless because I have that Holy Spirit labelled 'ROMAN' on my forehead, and you wish not be, then I can only say, Peace be with you.

dont be proud that you are a Protestant and you are 100% the truth. Dont be proud of Reformation. Luther was not the first.

Nestorianism and Church of The East from Nestorius and Cyril were the firsts. YOU AND ME, have a lot to thank for. It was Nestorius and Cyril that gave us the doctrine of TRINITY.

The Council of Chalcedon adopted their theological ideas but disregarded Nestorius, and Cyril followers arent satisfied either. Church of The East gave us the first evangelisation to Asia as well as BOOKS that you are reading now - They translated greek art, literature and poem into ARABIC. and Avicenna etc brought it to Europe.

Syriac Orthodox - what is left of Nestorianism gave us TRADITIONS that U Dislike.. Pentecostal guitar stringing, praise and worship of Protestants, Hymms and thanks giving of Catholics and Anglicans came from them. Hate them if you like.

Useless Traditions are traditions like circumcision, handwashing that St Paul mentioned. But Protestants want to strip the Sacraments, so be it. Dont come up and justify it to me, its not that God does not love the Catholic Christians anymore. In Fact what happened revolves around the centre. God still loves us all.

and may God forgives us, and we do not brood over injuries.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Feb 26 2013, 06:35 PM

So? Does that warrant you to burn people at the stake by shooting your darts of fire?

Don't take it to heart, prophetjul is like that.

The whole problem with these group of believers, they put themselves under the ministry of the old covenant.

The old testament ministry is really about the ministry of condemnation. Hells fire and brimstone. That's why you see these type surrounds themselves with verse like "beware of false prophet" or "repent or die in hell". They like to focus on the ugliness of Man rather than expound the beauty of Jesus Christ. They have more confidence in awareness of sins (flesh) as a mean to change people rather than Faith in the grace of God to change people.

The new testament ministry is really about Grace.

Grace is the person of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of the New Testament.

Not the Law of the 10 commandments.

Hi people, anyone staying in Salak Selatan, pls help our brother.

Haha, I am used to it. But he is more of a crusader. When we come to general Christianity and to explain against atheist, he actually supported and we are united. However really I am tired to discuss on what is romish traditions or not.. Just put it this way that: whatever way of worshipping our Lord brings edification to the person, why not we just let it be. I am edified receiving Eucharist and I live a happier life to be honest.

Same as my church pastor, they always mention and remind us 'bout those I highlight. They kept on repeating the very same statement. It always makes me to worry myself can't do much on what they told me to do, it reminds me to worry what I did is wrong. Its not that what I did is right but the word "worry" keep on spawning around my head last time.

I pray hard to this issue and now solve. I no longer having the word "worry", I walk with true faith. I break all BIG problems into smaller pieces and chew it daily just like my 3 times meals a day. And when all small problems arise, I chew it like snacks before it stake into bigger ones. Day after day pass, the word problems no longer arise as much as usual, its getting lesser n lesser. I'm not joking or making story here.. its my true history for pass 6 month until now.

I believe you.

Because Faith is like that.

It's not an imagination.

It's real.

When we act in Faith, God act in grace on our behalf.

This type of preaching does not build Faith but deminimize it.

Honestly I'm really not supportive of such preaching.

And sadly, it's quite common in Malaysia Church circle.

If we really want a revival,

It's time to start preaching Your sins are already forgiven where sin increase, grace super abounds and

Our heavenly Father wants us to call him "Abba Father" NOT in the Old Testament way where we fear God but here is where we can really cry Father

even if we have done wrong!

Edit:

I must warn you there will be people who will try and separate you from God by using fear and judgement the Old Testament way.

This people are the one who is blocking and stand in the way of God who is trying to reconcile to his people.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 27 2013, 12:18 PM

True and our father wants us to know how much he loves us. We must not hurt the one who loves us so much. Our father is always with us, satan around us making so much work to lead us away from father. We must be concious and aware of it every time. Do not be lazy to do our own part as simple as loving our father in the 1st priority.

not really bro.

He did give a correct understanding of the Holy Communion. Prior to saying eating of his flesh and blood, Jesus mentioned John 6:35. That is the base of Holy Communion.

John 6:35 (NIV)
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:47-51 (NIV)
47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”


John 6:61-64 (NIV)
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”

He was giving them the spiritual truth. See the verse John 6:63 where Jesus mentioned, the words He spoke is spirit and He purposely mentioned He who feeds on this bread will live forever. (John 6:63)

The Bible mentioned Jesus as

1. The bread of Life ( John 6:35)
2. The Word (John 1:1)

Eating is referring to coming to God, Drinking is referring to believing.

What does the Bible says about coming to God?

Those who come to God (Jesus) (John 6:35) must come in Faith, (Hebrews 11:6).

It's not in the bread and wine, Jedi because Jesus did says the Flesh counts for nothing. (John 6:63).

In the same passage Jesus says to eat his flesh and YET he says the flesh counts for nothing! Think about that.

You should look away from strong reference to the physical bread (eucharist) and look on Jesus.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 27 2013, 03:38 PM

Yo friends

Tune your anxious heart to patience, walk by faith where sight is dim

hellow... sudah padam all of those fire ? :-)

This post has been edited by de1929: Feb 27 2013, 04:13 PM

lol.

as I told last time, here is my pre-wedding photo session -> http://shinodairy.blogspot.com/2013/01/pre...photo-2013.html

by coincidence, my wall sticker had a empty space which I did not reserve for the wall photo. lucky the wording match it perfectly!

ah thank God that my eyes are still correct

bro, the picture of those 2 birds i tot earlier looks like a hanging rope wakakkak ... sorry pizz maan

Yes this is true.



Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father

Abba for Jews are Daddy, not Father. Daddy is a more intimate version of Father. and When we call upon our Lord's name, we are invoking a very lovely dad as well. Just because He is God does not make Him any more less lovely than Daddy as our dads might be lawyers, judges, presidents does not make them less lovely a Daddy.

well, if I were to come to an agreement with your point of view, there is no possible justification of what you said on the flesh as Jesus Flesh being useless. There is a flaw.

Lets not say because I am a catholic I follow romish tradition. Lets just say I am a Catholic because of what I have read and I agree that Bible does not contradict itself, does not negate itself, Jesus never said a phrase, a word that is useless in our lives. The whole NT is to be taken as a whole .. If we cannot address one verse, we cannot address any verses..

When Jesus says that “the flesh is useless” (John 6:63), He is not referring to His flesh (John 6:51: 54: 55: 56), but rather our human flesh in general. Otherwise, it would mean that Jesus’ flesh is useless, which would negate everything He just said in the entire chapter of John 6.

Jewishly,
There is no record in any of the gospels concerning the Last Supper of anyone present eating a regular Passover Lamb; rather they ate a consecrated piece of motzah bread that Jesus said was His Body, and we all know that Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God. And always remember, the Jews had to physically eat the Passover Lamb to complete the Passover meal, not a symbol of a Passover Lamb.

Why is this night different from all other nights?

On all other nights we eat leavened products and matzah, and on this night only matzah.

On all other nights we eat all vegetables, and on this night only bitter herbs.

On all other nights, we don't dip our food even once, and on this night we dip twice.

On all other nights we eat sitting or reclining, and on this night we only recline.

1 Question and 4 Answers.

That is why my position is that anyone who believes in Jesus as Saviour by heart and proclaim by lips as written in Scriptures will be saved, but to receive eternal life like Jesus said here, one has to receive the Bread of Life.

The Bread of Life certainly can mean Faith, but in John Chapter 6 taken into all accounts of what Jesus had said:

It is the start of the feast of passover of the Jews, on the next day Jesus will be that passover lamb on the cross whose blood will be shed for all. Since Jesus is that passover lamb of the new and everlasting covenant - it must be consumed.... that is why he gave us his flesh and blood in the form of bread and wine -- to offer as our new thanksgiving offering ...thereby ending the thanksgiving passover of the Jews... and starting a new one that will give us eternal life...

Isnt that the meaning of Bread of Life here? It was no longer a metaphor. He knew His mission. That is why I said it was a divine mandate.

The word was made flesh. I agree with you. But why is it not possible that the word made flesh, also besides on Genesis, be applied on the account of Eucharist?

The word remembrance in Hebrew that I mentioned, to call forth into the present is its meaning. There absolutely is Divine Mandate because the apostles understood very well.

What would have been hard for the people to believe if Jesus was only speaking metaphorically about having to eat his body, and drink his blood?. If Jesus was speaking metaphorically it would not be hard to believe, he repeated Himself two more times, because to show everyone he was speaking literally.

Communion is not pointless. It is an ordinance - but not to get saved. I agree. Faith is what is. and Hope and Love.

Now my Questions:

Ques 1: Symbolic presence contradicts

a) the Hebrew meaning of 'Do this in remembrance of me'
b) He did say it is His True Flesh and True Blood and repeated it 2 more times
c) The Apostles left Him and He did not call them back, unlike previously when Jesus was preaching Parables - which was really symbolic
d) It was not a regular Motzah Passover Meal
e) It negates all of Chapter 6 if Jesus would say His Flesh is useless. - Rather He was referring to human flesh in general (that u like this quote all the time: Cursed is the man who trusts in the flesh of man)
f) Gods works and miracles do not apply only on visible things that we see, also on invisible things: healing being one of them. The word Made Flesh is not hard to believe taken into account Genesis How God made the world and how The Word became Flesh in the womb of Blessed Mother.

Ques 2: I only accept Symbolic in the terms of WHAT they eat in the passover, not WHY. Since It was a different passover and Jesus knew of His plan of Salvation for Mankind.

Since the elements of Communion now are taken over from the Passover:
The elements like the salt water symbolized the tears of being under bondage, and how the parsley is symbolic of the putting the blood on the doorposts, and how the unleavened bread was like the bread made in haste when they left Egypt, and shankbone, the Zeroah, was symbolic of the Passover Lambs that were slain, and how the Charoset was symbolic of the harsh labor as slaves, but it is sweet because of sweetness of redemption. All are participants, there is a seder plate in front of them.

Exodus 12 was the time they started the seder.

Ques 3: You said:

My question: Spirit NEVER means symbolic. John says "God is Spirit". Is HE symbolic?
Is there a difference between THE flesh and MY flesh?
Is the flesh He gave for the life of the world to no avail?

and Here I will answer you on what He means as the Flesh, to justify why I said Jesus never negates what He said in John Chapter 6 about Flesh being useless.

- 1x
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
- 2x and He swore it when the Apostles have no faith
- 3rd Time

John 14:8 You judge according to the flesh
THE flesh indicates our fallen human nature. This is all the unbelievers see. They do not see His divinity veiled by His flesh.

This is why Jesus asked:

John 6:63
If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
He is a DIVINE person whose flesh, glorified in the Spirit gives life while the mere mortal flesh is of no avail. He communicates to us his divine nature through his glorified humanity. The WHOLE Christ is BODY, BLOOD , SOUL and DIVINITY. This is what He gives us who obey.

His glorified Heavenly body is not bound by space and time. He can appear when He wills, how He wills and in what form He wills.

Luke 24:13, 15-16, 27-31
And behold, two of them went, the same day, to a town which was sixty furlongs from Jerusalem, named Emmaus. And it came to pass that while they talked and reasoned with themselves, Jesus himself also, drawing near, went with them. But their eyes were held, that they should not know him. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things that were concerning him. And they drew nigh to the town whither they were going: and he made as though he would go farther. But they constrained him, saying: Stay with us, because it is towards evening and the day is now far spent. And he went in with them. And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread and blessed and brake and gave to them. And their eyes were opened: and they knew him. And he vanished out of their sight.
Luke 24:35
And they told what things were done in the way: and how they knew him in the breaking of bread.

still symbolic?

What is agreed upon between you and me now:

1: It's not just what day is important or what one eats, it's about giving thanks.
For it was said:
1 Corinthians 5:7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

2: Faith is what saves. Not eating a communion.
For it was said:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so. 10 We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat.

11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14 For here we do not have an enduring city


What I will never agree upon: Its a useless Romish Tradition. This was without scriptural basis and historical basis, but pure imagination and deliberate due to resentment of other Christians.

Malachi 1:11- the christian version of the TAMID - the daily offering of the lamb after sunrise and before sunset which God said it must be celebrated until the end .. .and only the Catholic and the orthodox celebrates this everyday on their altars

11 My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Feb 27 2013, 06:36 PM

Do you realised there is something wrong with the sentence here?

Or I'm missing something?

What do you mean "but"?

Isn't being saved = Eternal Life?

Or you mean to say anyone who confessed Jesus as saviour but does not partake Holy Communion is not saved?



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 28 2013, 12:08 AM