Well, this friend of mine started two years ago with initial investment of 500g then later topped up to 4KG. From time to time, he would show us the cheques, some amounting 20~40K. One might think he was showing off, but we knew he was trying to convince us to join, he is not an agent of Genneva though. I am not sure about his situation now, I did try to contact him yesterday but couldn't get through. Anyway, I don't think I want to call him at this moment, thinking that he might have lots of mess to handle now. For those who pulled out from this investment after completed the contract before the raid, they should have earned.

If you accumulate the monthly payout to topped more gold bars and without selling back it is actually your own money. Worst case is those recently topped and still waiting to collect their gold bars.
This money go round game Genneva have already calculated.

This post has been edited by transform: Oct 4 2012, 02:45 PM

Genneva Gold incident is a good lesson learnt for public. I have read many comments and feedbacks by the investors, agents and street public. I realized that generally most of people are lacking the truth knowledge of business and investment. If all these people know the knowledge as good as simple school math's like 1+1=2, this incident never could happen.

The raid is definitely a right move by the respective authorities. They are executing their duty and responsibility which are to prevent the suspicious business from becoming disaster.

As pointed out by many "clear mind" people, the return by Genneva Gold is too good to be truth. The offer is really too good and not easy to resist. It has crossed over the boundary of any ordinary investment plan in term of guaranteed return. A news in Sin Chiew this week was reporting that China's steel entrepreneur complained their earning of selling one ton steel is just equivalent to a simple dinner dish. Could you imagine the challenging in business world to make a profit of more than 10% a year. If you still believe that depositing a sum by earning 25% annually with guarantee is a possible investment plan for long term, I suggest, you need to read more about investsment. Otherwise, you make these entrepreneurs and Warren Buffett look stupid.

There are some defenders, mostly investors or agents, repeatedly saying the company has not in default to any investors since the business operates few years ago. This statement proves that these people are seriously lacking of common sense in investment and business. It is just simple as it is - the problem exists but not yet mature for surface. It takes time. But, it is absolutely sure, the problem definitely surfaces later or sooner. The action from the authorities is to prevent the problem grows too big when it bursts. Otherwise, you can think of the victims are not 60,000 investors, it could go to million investors, if the authorities do not send the clear message to the public. By then, these huge crowd investors would press the government for rescue plan. The plan is basically spending tax payers' money to recover their losses. This is absolutely unfair to all the tax payers. The money is not for rescuing their greedy and wrong investment.

From the facts that I gathered from the media, basically, Genneva Gold is not a pure gold trading company. It is a money game scheme as it introduces buy back and "hibah" . The game can goes on and on until one day the balance sheet is unbalanced for repayment. This happens when the gold price fluctuates too high and the market is saturated from new investments by exiting investors or new investors.

I always like to think of the popular money game - the pyramid. The game sells no product except member fee. Let say, a member enrolls by paying RM1,000. He introduces 5 members by getting bonus of RM1,500. He makes profit of RM500 happily. His bottom line members do the same. This pyramid is spreading widely. The company has no problem of paying as their collection is more than payout. But, one day, new members counts are insufficient to sustain the payment, the pyramid is collapsed.

This explains Genneva Gold is still able to fulfill their payout promises as of the raid. However, the hidden is that the risk of payment default grows day by day as well. It is like blowing a balloon without stopping. The balloon is definitely burst.

If the blowing balloon can go indefinitely, all the business and investment theories and concepts have to be re-written again. All the professors in Harvard school have to be re-trained their expertise.

By P. GUNASEGARAM

Ten questions to ask before you put your money in the wrong place.

AH, people’s greed! It knows no bounds and everyone wants to make a quick buck with little effort.

They just can’t resist the opportunity to make easy money but too often they don’t stop to think. And they get burnt!

The sad thing is this happens over and over and over again despite all the caution that the authorities urge.

Eventually, when the scheme topples because the pyramid is teetering on the point and not resting on its base, and the sham is exposed, it’s to the authorities that the victims turn to.

So let’s not make noise when the authorities investigate money-making schemes, especially when they are too good to be true. Let the authorities investigate thoroughly because usually they investigate only after some complaints. And complaints are the first sign of trouble.

If there is absolutely nothing wrong with their business, and everything is legal and right, they will be allowed to operate again.

Nothing much would have been lost and they start again from where they left off.

But, if there is something wrong, the poker game is up and the house of cards will come tumbling down. In that case, all distraught investors can hope for is a share of whatever is left which often is not much.

There have been many kinds of scams over the years. Basically, all of them operate pretty much the same.

They actually pay out insane returns and dividends for a while and when enough people are attracted in, they disappear in a wink with all the money that people have put into the schemes, scams or shams.

And they pay attractive commission to those who get them customers.

It’s similar to stock market investors in ramped up counters: they know the fall will come but they hope to be among the first who get out before the values crumble and people start disappearing. That’s a high-risk gamble which for the most part is just not worth taking.

Here are 10 questions to ask before investing in a money-making scheme:

1. ARE the returns too good to be true?

If someone promises you 20% a year when fixed deposits pay 3%, that’s a damn good rate of return. But you need to find out what the risk is. Typically, the higher the return, the higher the risk.

2. DOES it claim to protect your capital?

If your returns are high and the scheme promises to preserve your capital, run as fast as your two legs will carry you. No one, not even the greatest investor the world has seen – Warren Buffett – can promise you that.

3. HOW is your capital protected?

If capital is protected and the return is reasonable, ask this question. If it is merely the word of the scheme or the company that is running the scheme, it will not be worth the paper it is written on if the scheme collapses and goes bust.

4. WHY does the company not make the money for itself?

If you are still convinced that they can give you such a return with no corresponding risk, ask yourself this question. They can very well borrow some money from their bank, sell all their assets or beg from their relatives if they can get that kind of returns instead of letting you make the money. Generosity like that does not exist.

5. HOW much work do you have to do?

The less work you have to do for the returns, the more suspicious you should become. If you are in direct selling, you have to work hard to get your commissions.

But if you are sitting back, kicking off your shoes and putting your feet up on the stool while watching the world go by and your money flow into your bank account, let me tell you something: It won’t last!

6. DOES it pay you when you recruit someone else into your scheme?

If it does, be very careful because that’s the classic way of spreading the scheme. You recruit someone, you get paid, your recruit gets someone, he gets paid – it spreads in geometric progression like wildfire.

But don’t forget, you most likely have not recovered your initial investment. The scam is still accumulating money and waiting for the last minute before it packs up, money and all, and flees.

7. DOES it claim that it has a proprietary product, service or method?

Oldest trick in the book, this one. They have such a fantastic advantage over the rest with this and they are so generous that they want to share it with you so that you will gain from it too. Charity from those who have not made enough money to be that charitable is rather suspect.

8. WHO are the promoters? Are they reputable people with solid track records and businesses built up through hard work? Or are they commission salesmen and saleswomen who have a glib tongue with which they smooth over the pitfalls of their so-called business?

9. HOW long have they been in business?

If they are new to the game, better be suspicious than sorry later.

There are many reputable direct sales organisations and if you are a good salesperson, you can make some money but usually they have been around for a while. I won’t name them, you know who they are.

10. HAS it started delaying payments?

Oh, poor you! If you are in it after asking all these questions and were still, well, conned, it may well be too late.

If they are delaying payments, they either got it wrong and can’t pay you or they are in the process of running and leaving you high and dry. Get the investigators in and salvage whatever you can.

Finally, remember, these scams can be quite smart, sophisticated and rather persuasive. Put them to the test by asking and answering these questions — hopefully you don’t have to answer question 10 by which time it may be too late — and we guarantee you will be safe.

Or your money back. Promise!

> P. Gunasegaram is an independent consultant and writer.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...21017&sec=focus

Just a scam

KUALA LUMPUR – Transaksi jual beli dan pelaburan emas Syarikat Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd didapati tidak mematuhi sepenuhnya peraturan hukum syarak dan undang-undang negara. Ini disahkan oleh Pengerusi Muzakarah Jawatankuasa Fatwa Majlis Kebangsaan bagi Hal Ehwal Agama Islam Malaysia, Prof Emeritus Tan Sri Abdul Shukor Husin dalam satu kenyataan dikeluarkan di sini. Beliau berkata, muzakarah tiga hari majlis itu bermula Rabu lepas meneliti laporan dan hasil siasatan Bank Negara Malaysia terhadap operasi jual beli dan pelaburan emas syarikat itu.

Katanya, operasi syarikat tersebut didapati tidak mematuhi sepenuhnya Parameter Pelaburan Emas seperti diperakukan oleh Muzakarah Jawatankuasa Fatwa. Majlis Kebangsaan bagi Hal Ehwal Agama Islam Malaysia kali ke 96 yang diadakan pada 13 hingga 15 Jun lepas.
Kenyataan itu menasihatkan umat Islam tidak melibatkan diri dalam aktiviti atau transaksi jual beli dan pelaburan emas oleh mana-mana pihak, sama ada syarikat di dalam negara atau luar negara yang bertentangan dengan prinsip jual beli emas seperti yang digariskan oleh syarak dan undang-undang negara.
Abdul Shukor berkata, transaksi jual beli mestilah memenuhi semua rukun jual beli yang digariskan hukum syarak, dan sesuatu transaksi dikira tidak sah sekiranya tidak memenuhi salah satu rukun jual beli. Beliau berkata transaksi juga hendaklah bebas daripada unsur-unsur riba, perjudian, gharar yang berlebihan dan kezaliman. – Bernama


Letter from Bank Negara

We note that you have raised issues with regard to the gold investment of Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd (Genneva). We would like to inform you that buying and selling gold or silver is not under the purview of Bank Negara Malaysia (the Bank), thus the Bank does not issue any license to any company who wish to conduct such activities.

However, if the gold/silver trading - investment scheme clearly offers investment opportunity by collecting deposits from the public and investors are promised investment returns/profits within a certain period of time, whereby the original investment will be refunded or in other words if a company appeared to be involving in illegal deposit taking by using gold/silver to camouflage its activities, it maybe contravene section 25(1) Banking And Financial Institutions Act 1989 (BAFIA).

We have investigated numerous instances involving companies having illegal deposit-taking and trading in gold as their underlying products that might contravene Section 25(1), BAFIA such as Genneva Sdn Bhd, Bestino Group Berhad, Gold Label Sdn Bhd.
For your information, we also monitor these activities very closely and we will not hesitate to conduct investigations should a company appears to be involved in illegal deposit-taking using gold to camouflage its activities.

With regard to the statement made by Genneva:

"The company has fulfilled all requirements and has been given approval by Central Bank as Scheduled Institution under Section 21(1) of the Banking and Financial Institution Act 1989. We are also a company being classified under First Schedule of Anti-Money Laundering and Anti-Terrorism Financing Act 2001 as a "Reporting Institution".

For your information, a scheduled institution has to notify the Bank for its operation under Section 21(1) BAFIA. However, we do not regulate its activities. In this instance, Genneva has submitted its application for change of name as previous notification was made under the name of other company which was acquired by Genneva. The activities described in the application are to conduct the leasing and factoring businesses. Genneva does not require the Bank's approval to conduct the gold bar trading as gold trading is not under the Bank's purview as mentioned above.

Thus, again we would like to take the opportunity to inform members of public that gold trading is not under Bank Negara Malaysia's jurisdiction. Members of public are to be reminded to be more cautious and scrutinize the risk associated with the gold investment before joining any investment scheme which promise higher returns in short-term period.

those who know actual victims, particularly those who invested their whole savings; its time for you to realize they are probably in their worst time of their life, please try to help them or at least talk to them.

Just look at Madoff's case.

It's a very simple concept, i.e. Ponzi Scheme.

People generally believe that gold is valuable and buying gold is believed to be a safer investment. Genneva uses selling gold as a mask. It's indeed a very good marketing trick; it wouldn't be so convincing selling things other than gold.

So, what is Ponzi Scheme?

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation. -- Ponzi Scheme, Wikipedia


-- extracted from http://www.ericgarland.co/2012/09/03/more-...s-ponzi-scheme/ without permission

Genneva operates in the aforementioned operation.

Let
x = market price of 10g gold
y = genneva price of 10g gold, y > x
z = y - x (so-called investment)

Similarly, Genneva pays returns to its "investors" from their own money (z) or the money paid (z) by subsequent "investors", rather than from profit earned by individual or organization running the operation.

Get it?

This post has been edited by Y-shapedTwig: Oct 4 2012, 03:25 PM

Any evidence?

if u care to read the last few pages, we had given ample warning
heck! even their facebook site & hardware zone gave warning
do u know how they treated our warnings when we blog with them, they called us names using human anatomy

when we ask to focus on the unsustainability of its business aspect
the pro-genneva defenders ask us to focus on legal technicalities, as advised by that punjabi lawyer
at least he got the courtesy so bid us farewell, coz he knows his retirement is paid for, thanks to 60k giraffes

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...1008&sec=nation
MCA Public Services and Complaints Department chief Datuk Seri Michael Chong said he almost invested in Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd too.

He said he was having bak kut teh with two friends two months ago when one of them told him about the gold trading scheme.

“He said he heard about it from another friend. It sounded like a good deal and I was very excited,” said Chong in an interview.

However, the friend who recommended the scheme later changed his mind.

“He said the deal sounds too good to be true and told us to hold onto our money,” said Chong.

He hoped people would be careful before investing in similar schemes.

“The more returns they promise, the more careful you should be,” he said.

“I think I should also thank my wife who is the one controlling my money.”

*ROLLING MONEY*

It isn't sustainable if no one buys gold from them (a.k.a invests in their company).

GOLD is just a tool they use to convince their customer to *invest* z into their company.

This is good news for Genneva investors & agents, GBEAM (Gold Bullion Entrepreneurs Association of Malaysia) believes that Genneva is Legit!

SOS - The Star

The whole process, for those who don't know:



I think there is something wrong here whereby the Malaysian investors are supportive of Genneva Malaysia but our Singaporean friends are the other way round. I really wonder why...

i like your point,somehow it reminds of lamberger if anyone still can remember,the gold is the perfume but end up still selling member fee

The agents get 0.7% per month. So yeah, there is a downline system similar to MLM.

Honestly, if everyone follows P. Gunasegaram style... even the normal insurance agent, real estate agent and ... also die because cannot make a living.

Source? macam takleh caya je...

Dude, please see below image, you might want to consider back what you just said about them. Honestly, I don't see the scamming anywhere. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Absolutely right!

The gold sold by Genneva is added with 20-30% premium. This premium in fact is MEMBER FEE.

SHEW me the money!

that punjabi lawyer has advised tuan to perfected his scheme, after learning lessons from genneva part 1, 2 & 3
the punjabi lawyer commission from RM5billion should be good money
the chicken feed from RM41mill from genneva part3 was just appetizers
look at all his money quote, he expected SHTF and business running on a non-going concern concept

those giraffes answer is in the court case that has been in coma since year 2007. yes, wait until neck long-long

opening a branch overseas and konon no 'checking' system in place but, they expected SHTF, so those giraffes lose either ways if dun transfer contract. is genneva world pte ltd still operating or not yet finish their con job

punjabi lawyer says 60k giraffes r smart and no one forced them to buy in first place

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
we are NOT whining

enjoy your holidays in dubai and remember sent some photos with the shirt, 'wish you were here!'

also must mention his academy award best supporting actor for constructing sentences with human anatomy
his job was to keep the 60k giraffe off focus and he did a good job, remember sent us postcard of your vacation too

http://klcisecretroom.blogspot.com/2012/10...eva-series.html
http://klcisecretroom.blogspot.com/2012/10...-series-ii.html

You buy RM10,000 gold. They promised to pay you "hibah" of RM750 (assumes 2.5 monthly hibah) after 3 months and you are given option sell the gold to them with mutual agreed price of RM10,000.

This means they borrow RM10K from you for 3 months and paying you with RM750 interest , which equally to 30% annuity.

This business is clean if:

Genneva uses your RM10K to make profit of more than RM750 within 3 months. They can use your money for any investments or any business operations so long the return is more than 30% annuity. Let say, they make 40% profit anuuity. After paying you, Genneva retains 10% profit as their profit and also paying for admin operating cost and agent fees.

I don't see any logic problem of this business model in fact.

BUT, what is the possibility of making 40% annuity profit consistantly? IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO DO IT IN BUSINESS WORLD!!!!!!! Don't read only the success stories, do read the failure business stories. The world statistic shows that 80% of business are failed. Talk to anybodu who runs the business before to get the fact. Don't talk to the successors only, as they areonly monority.

THUS, how Genneva makes the profit to substain their bussiness. Can they invest money better Warren Buffett as this rich guy is only can get 18-20% annuity return. Dare you say Warren Buffett is a non performance investor?

I know you believe Genneva says in their website that they have a good team who has 100 years experience of gold management business. Does this means that this team can earn better than Warren Buffett. If so, you really make Warren Buffett look STUPID!!!

Hope, you can see the problem here clearly!!!

If they can be that smart...they already can released book to share their experiences like Donald Trump, Robert Kiyosaki or Warren Buffet...but hell no, they are not as smart as those people I mentioned above....