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 20 Most Overrated Supplements, aka useless supplements AFAIK

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TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 01:24 PM, updated 15y ago

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http://www.livestrong.com/slideshow/550744...ed-supplements/


Weight Gainers

The Claim: Weight gainers are typically marketed towards people who are desperate to put on muscle. The Facts: These products typically consist either a simple carbohydrate, or a complex (yet empty-calorie) carbohydrate such as maltodextrin, with protein, fat, and micronutrients rounding out the minority of the contents. People are deceived into thinking their gains in scale weight are quality pounds, but often it’s just a matter of packing on a bunch of fat along with muscle. The solution is understanding how much muscle can realistically be gained: about two to three pounds per month for beginners, one to two pounds a month in intermediate trainees, and about half a pound to a pound a month in advanced trainees.



Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA)

The Claim: CLA is a naturally occurring fat found mainly in meat and dairy foods. After showing spectacular success in helping rodents lose fat, it was assumed that similar effects could be seen in humans. The Facts: Depending on the funding source of the study, CLA has had both positive [7] and negative reviews as a weight loss aid [8]. However, in the only study to-date examining CLA’s effects on the athletic population, it was ineffective [9]. To top things off, CLA has been seen to adversely affect glucose metabolism, insulin sensitivity, and blood lipids [10]



L-Arginine

The Claim: Arginine is a conditionally essential amino acid touted for its ability to increase nitric oxide (NO) production, which in turn is hyped to promote training performance, muscle growth and recovery through vasodilation, better pumps, and enhanced nutrient delivery. The Facts: In a recent scientific literature review, 3 out of 5 short-term studies, and 4 out of 8 longer-term studies showed significant performance improvements from arginine supplementation [24]. That’s a pretty mediocre track record, especially considering that two other recent studies showed a lack of significant effect [25,26]


L-glutamine

The Claim: L-glutamine is a conditionally essential amino acid that has the potential to improve immunity and certain diseases of the digestive tract. It has been heavily marketed toward bodybuilders and strength/power athletes for its supposed ability to enhance muscle size and performance. The Facts: In spite of the hype, glutamine has a consistent track record of failure to enhance training performance or muscle gains [27-30]


L-carnitine

The Claim: L-carnitine is a nonessential amino acid abundant in the heart and skeletal muscle. It carries long-chain fatty acids across the inner mitochondrial membrane for oxidation. In other words: your fat is hypothetically burned as energy. It’s been assumed that an increase of carnitine within muscles would increase the oxidation of fatty acids, and in turn result in weight loss. The Facts: There is no compelling evidence that muscle carnitine is the rate-limiting step for fatty acid oxidation. Even worse, L-carnitine supplementation has failed repeatedly in studies examining its effect on weight loss [17,18]


Whey & Casein Hydrolysate Protein Powder

The Claim: Protein hydrolystates (as opposed to protein isolates or concentrates) are further broken down into peptide fragments from their original intact/protein-bound state. This quality is touted to make these proteins superior for muscle recovery & anabolism due to their more rapid absorption. The Facts: There is no compelling evidence that the substantially more expensive protein hydrolysates are better than concentrates or isolates for muscle anabolism. The research thus far comparing intact proteins with hydrolysates is contradictory for both whey [42,43] and casein [44,45]. This means that spending double or triple for worse-tasting protein hydrolysates is a big leap of faith



Synephrine (Citrus Aurantium, AKA Bitter Orange Extract)

The Claim:: Synephrine is an alkaloid structurally similar to ephedrine (the powerful weight loss drug), so it’s been touted as a worthy replacement after ephedrine was pulled off the shelves. The Facts: Only one peer-reviewed study exists supporting citrus aurantium’s beneficial effect on body composition [22], but it’s impossible to tell if it caused fat loss because it was part of a supplement mixture. To quote an exhaustive literature review by researchers Fugh-Berman and Meyers [23], “Unless and until the short- and long-term safety and efficacy of C. aurantium extracts are established, consumers should be advised to avoid C. aurantium – containing weight-loss products…"


Tribulus Terrestris

The Claim: Tribulus terrestris is a plant native to warm temperate and tropical regions of Africa, Southern Europe and Asia, and Northern Australia. But more importantly, this herb has been hyped to raise testosterone, and thus aid in size & strength gains. Think steroids, without the shrunken goods. The Facts: Tribulus terrestris has consistently failed to show an increase in testosterone production [34-36]. And in tests of its impact on body composition (less fat) and training performance (more strength), it has also failed repeatedly [37,38]



Chromium

The Claim: Chromium is an essential trace mineral that showed potential in lowering fasting blood glucose and insulin levels in type 2 diabetics. The assumption was made that it could help with weight loss. The Facts: Multiple controlled studies across a wide range of populations have shown its ineffectiveness for weight loss [2-6].


ZMA (Zinc monomethionine aspartate and Magnesium Aspartate)

The Claim: ZMA is a combination of zinc, magnesium, and vitamin B6. It’s hyped for its ability to improve performance and body composition in bodybuilders and pretty much every other type of athlete under the sun. It is also commonly hyped as a testosterone booster and a way to improve sleep and recovery. The Facts: ZMA showed positive effects in a study funded by the supplement’s creator & patent holder, Victor Conte (famous for the Balco Labs steroid scandal). However, subsequent independent research showed that ZMA failed to affect testosterone levels, strength, and body composition [46, 47].

This post has been edited by darklight79: Nov 26 2011, 01:27 PM
92alvin
post Nov 26 2011, 01:34 PM

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thanks for the info. smile.gif
TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(92alvin @ Nov 26 2011, 01:34 PM)
thanks for the info. smile.gif
*
nod.gif
icon_idea.gif
cool2.gif


Added on November 26, 2011, 1:37 pmWould also like to add that it's whey HYDROSYLATE which is useless, NOT normal whey protein before all those online sellers start lynching me.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Nov 26 2011, 01:37 PM
92alvin
post Nov 26 2011, 01:45 PM

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QUOTE(darklight79 @ Nov 26 2011, 01:36 PM)
Would also like to add that it's whey HYDROSYLATE which is useless, NOT normal whey protein before all those online sellers start lynching me.
rclxms.gif thumbup.gif
mikehuan
post Nov 26 2011, 01:45 PM

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l2count. only ten there! icon_idea.gif

but good read lol. sticky material!
TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 01:53 PM

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Lol I only picked the ones relevant.
mikehuan
post Nov 26 2011, 01:57 PM

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tell la, thought u listed em all so didnt click on the webbie

this should be included though! i wants jelly beans!

Sports Jelly Beans
The Claim: Sports jelly beans (also called sports beans) are touted to enhancing endurance performance. The Facts: Sports beans are not more effective than carbohydrate-based sports beverages or a carbohydrate-based sports gel [50]. However, sports beans were recently compared with raisins (Sunmaid brand), which performed equally to sports beans for enhancing endurance performance [51]. But subjects rated the raisins more pleasurable to consume. So raisins might be the better choice as they are 3-4 times cheaper, and contain more health-promoting phytonutrition.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/slideshow/550744.../#ixzz1emvsGYex


TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 01:58 PM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Nov 26 2011, 01:57 PM)
tell la, thought u listed em all so didnt click on the webbie

this should be included though! i wants jelly beans!

Sports Jelly Beans
The Claim: Sports jelly beans (also called sports beans) are touted to enhancing endurance performance. The Facts: Sports beans are not more effective than carbohydrate-based sports beverages or a carbohydrate-based sports gel [50]. However, sports beans were recently compared with raisins (Sunmaid brand), which performed equally to sports beans for enhancing endurance performance [51]. But subjects rated the raisins more pleasurable to consume. So raisins might be the better choice as they are 3-4 times cheaper, and contain more health-promoting phytonutrition.
Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/slideshow/550744.../#ixzz1emvsGYex
*
I LIKE JELLY BEANS! GO DAI PLS!
VeeJay
post Nov 26 2011, 02:01 PM

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To old timers sifu's here...do you guys take supplements (whey protein, creatine etc)?

If you do, which ones (primary) and have you tried with/without it?

Just curious here smile.gif

Further if you had taken (/are taking) at which stage it was beneficial for you, as a beginner, intermediate, or advance (no professionals); stage or of your training .

This post has been edited by VeeJay: Nov 26 2011, 02:05 PM
mikehuan
post Nov 26 2011, 02:02 PM

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QUOTE(darklight79 @ Nov 26 2011, 01:58 PM)
I LIKE JELLY BEANS! GO DAI PLS!
*
go buy raisins pls kthxbai
TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 02:03 PM

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QUOTE(VeeJay @ Nov 26 2011, 02:01 PM)
To old timers sifu's here...do you guys take supplements (whey protein, creatine etc)?

If you do, which ones (primary) and have you tried with/without it?

Just curious here  smile.gif
*
I don't take protein shakes anymore. Only multivites and BCAA's from time to time. Real food = WIN
mikehuan
post Nov 26 2011, 02:07 PM

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QUOTE(VeeJay @ Nov 26 2011, 02:01 PM)
To old timers sifu's here...do you guys take supplements (whey protein, creatine etc)?

If you do, which ones (primary) and have you tried with/without it?

Just curious here  smile.gif

Further if you had taken (/are taking) at which stage it was beneficial for you, as a beginner, intermediate, or advance (no professionals); stage or of your training .
*
imho you wont go wrong with the big four:

1. whey protein/blend
2. multivits
3. creatine
4. bcaa

myself, am taking whey atm. have tried creatine and bcaa before this. no drastic change in performance imo. had more endurance while consuming bcaa. still beginner, so no comments on your last question.
TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Nov 26 2011, 02:07 PM)
imho you wont go wrong with the big four:

1. whey protein/blend
2. multivits
3. creatine
4. bcaa

myself, am taking whey atm. have tried creatine and bcaa before this. no drastic change in performance imo. had more endurance while consuming bcaa. still beginner, so no comments on your last question.
*
Creatine is the only supplementation which has been proven to work time and time again. BCAA's, well the science experts still have varying opinions but personally for me, they work.
kelvinftg
post Nov 26 2011, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(darklight79 @ Nov 26 2011, 01:36 PM)
nod.gif 
icon_idea.gif 
cool2.gif


Added on November 26, 2011, 1:37 pmWould also like to add that it's whey HYDROSYLATE which is useless, NOT normal whey protein before all those online sellers start lynching me.
*
Meh.. So does this say something about the new and improved Gaspari Myofusions?
statikinetic
post Nov 26 2011, 05:25 PM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Nov 26 2011, 02:07 PM)
imho you wont go wrong with the big four:

1. whey protein/blend
2. multivits
3. creatine
4. bcaa

myself, am taking whey atm. have tried creatine and bcaa before this. no drastic change in performance imo. had more endurance while consuming bcaa. still beginner, so no comments on your last question.
*
I'm on all 4. Just those 4.
The BCAAs I threw in as experimentation, half a tub left. Not sure if I'm going to continue when it's finished though.
TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 05:29 PM

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QUOTE(kelvinftg @ Nov 26 2011, 05:22 PM)
Meh.. So does this say something about the new and improved Gaspari Myofusions?
*
It's ok as long as they don't use it as an excuse to increase the price.
VeeJay
post Nov 26 2011, 07:57 PM

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Thanks for sharing darklight and mike.

Just a little bit on my part... biggrin.gif

I started weight back in 1997 had continued till 2002.....being in US then, you name it I have tried everything (supplements only...nothing on "fat chicks/juice") , while being with a trainer for 2 yrs and intermittently one year there after while guiding the newbies there....its was fun

I was more into bulking then.....and did pretty well..

came back to Msia later; been slacking in between work, and couldnt start seriously while trying to re-settle here...and been handling sports injuries to arm and knee (too much badminton and soccer)

finally last july put my mind to restart....

This time around, I had decided to go on natural food for nutrition and supplements, rather than any powders...

started with cutting for 2 months on serious diet and weights and cardio. manage to reduce from 22% to 13-14% (currently on 5th month).

but this time around, my goal is just going lean rather than bulking. I have manage to maintain my weight at 70-72kg (174cm in height)

Natural food had been good, thus far...although I have not or reaching any of my previous lifting weight, but overall kinda very happy with the results.

How I did...., the first 2 months, I loaded myself with 60& protein, 10-20% carbo and 20-30% fat); generally I was only concentrating on protein and fat intake as major diet. and to trigger the anabolic state, I loaded my self about with about 3000-3500 cal a day doh.gif rclxms.gif it was tough thumbup.gif

general food roughly about 2 full grilled chicken, 6-8 cans of tuna, 8 eggs, and lots of vege. split meals 5-6 meals or when ever I feel hungry...had my brown bag with me all the time...so no cheat meals

morning 1 hour cardio and evening weights... thats it for 2 months strictly...

the good thing was I did not put on any major weight other than +/- 1-2kg

thats my side of story..... hope did not bore you folks... tongue.gif

This post has been edited by VeeJay: Nov 26 2011, 07:58 PM
TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 08:00 PM

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QUOTE(VeeJay @ Nov 26 2011, 07:57 PM)
Thanks for sharing darklight and mike.

Just a little bit on my part... biggrin.gif

I started weight back in 1997 had continued till 2002.....being in US then, you name it I have tried everything (supplements only...nothing on "fat chicks/juice") , while being with a trainer for 2 yrs and intermittently one year there after while guiding the newbies there....its was fun

I was more into bulking then.....and did pretty well..

came back to Msia later; been slacking in between work, and couldnt start  seriously while trying to re-settle here...and been handling sports injuries to arm and knee (too much badminton and soccer)

finally last july put my mind to restart....

This time around, I had decided to go on natural food for nutrition and supplements, rather than any powders...

started with cutting for 2 months on serious diet and weights and cardio. manage to reduce from 22% to 13-14% (currently on 5th month).

but this time around, my goal is just going lean rather than bulking. I have manage to maintain my weight at 70-72kg (174cm in height)

Natural food had been good, thus far...although I have not or reaching any of my previous lifting weight, but overall kinda very happy with the results.

How I did...., the first 2 months, I loaded myself with 60& protein, 10-20% carbo and 20-30% fat); generally I was only concentrating on protein and fat intake as major diet. and to trigger the anabolic state, I loaded my self about with about 3000-3500 cal a day  doh.gif  rclxms.gif it was tough  thumbup.gif

general food roughly about 2 full grilled chicken, 6-8 cans of tuna,  8 eggs, and lots of vege. split meals 5-6 meals or when ever I feel hungry...had my brown bag with me all the time...so no cheat meals

morning 1 hour cardio and evening weights... thats it for 2 months strictly...

the good thing was I did not put on any major weight other than +/- 1-2kg

thats my side of story..... hope did not bore you folks...  tongue.gif
*
=( I admire your dedication. If I don't eat triple cheeseburgers and maggi goreng 3 times a week I go crazy.
VeeJay
post Nov 26 2011, 08:41 PM

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QUOTE(darklight79 @ Nov 26 2011, 08:00 PM)
=( I admire your dedication. If I don't eat triple cheeseburgers and maggi goreng 3 times a week I go crazy.
*
Agreed rclxms.gif now i do that as well..... thumbup.gif my favorite as ( triple cheeseburgers) well; and KFC and maggie once a week.

coming back to topic, I think many beginners concentrate too much on supplements, rather than diet and workouts; once you you have stabilized your body and you know your needs and how to maintain your physique; its pretty easy to maintain it....just my take...

This post has been edited by VeeJay: Nov 26 2011, 08:45 PM
shiloong7081
post Nov 26 2011, 09:08 PM

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are whey hydrolysates useless , or are they equivalent to normal whey, so there's no need to pay the extra premium for it ?
TSdarklight79
post Nov 26 2011, 10:46 PM

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QUOTE(shiloong7081 @ Nov 26 2011, 09:08 PM)
are whey hydrolysates useless , or are they equivalent to normal whey, so there's no need to pay the extra premium for it ?
*
No need. It's a marketing gimmick.
Mr. Z
post Nov 28 2011, 12:58 AM

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if lets say currently i m not bulked up, but i need more chest and biceps, at the same time trims the flabs at the belly, should i go on a bulk up diet or weight loss diet?

mikehuan
post Nov 28 2011, 01:33 AM

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QUOTE(Mr. Z @ Nov 28 2011, 12:58 AM)
if lets say currently i m not bulked up, but i need more chest and biceps, at the same time trims the flabs at the belly, should i go on a bulk up diet or weight loss diet?
*
so you have awesome lats, delts, triceps and leg development and only your chest and bi's are lacking? lets see some pics i wanna see this.
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post Nov 28 2011, 02:08 PM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Nov 28 2011, 01:33 AM)
so you have awesome lats, delts, triceps and leg development and only your chest and bi's are lacking? lets see some pics i wanna see this.
*
nah i didnt mean it that way... dun misinterpret... what i meant was... i only wanted that area sightly bulk but not overly bulked... i know u cant control the growth of muscle, but overall, what sort of diet should i aimed at? mass gaining? or fat losing?
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post Nov 28 2011, 03:46 PM

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QUOTE(Mr. Z @ Nov 28 2011, 02:08 PM)
nah i didnt mean it that way... dun misinterpret... what i meant was... i only wanted that area sightly bulk but not overly bulked... i know u cant control the growth of muscle, but overall, what sort of diet should i aimed at? mass gaining? or fat losing?
*
personal choice really...
you can bulk now and cut later, or vice versa

razorboy
post Nov 28 2011, 04:45 PM

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QUOTE(Mr. Z @ Nov 28 2011, 12:58 AM)
if lets say currently i m not bulked up, but i need more chest and biceps, at the same time trims the flabs at the belly, should i go on a bulk up diet or weight loss diet?
*
Your height and weight? And one thing, bodybuilding is about having a proportionate silhouette. Don't aim to just bring up a body part but your whole body altogether.
Mr. Z
post Nov 29 2011, 03:59 AM

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Weight: Approx 66kg +/- 1 - 2kg
Height: Approx. 175cm

yeah thts what i m aiming at too.. proportionate silhouette, because i think i m not that tall, if i m too bulked up, i ll look short..
razorboy
post Nov 29 2011, 07:35 AM

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QUOTE(Mr. Z @ Nov 29 2011, 03:59 AM)
Weight: Approx 66kg +/- 1 - 2kg
Height: Approx. 175cm

yeah thts what i m aiming at too.. proportionate silhouette, because i think i m not that tall, if i m too bulked up, i ll look short..
*
Dont worry being too bulky, chances are you won't ever be too bulky. Try to go to around 70 and see if you are holding too much fat, if yes thn start cutting, if no then continue bulking
ChinHong86
post Nov 30 2011, 01:22 AM

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good thread....
can add on supplements which works?
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post Nov 30 2011, 08:33 AM

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QUOTE(Mr. Z @ Nov 29 2011, 03:59 AM)
Weight: Approx 66kg +/- 1 - 2kg
Height: Approx. 175cm

yeah thts what i m aiming at too.. proportionate silhouette, because i think i m not that tall, if i m too bulked up, i ll look short..
*
bro im 173 cm and 76-77 kg. i dont look short at all.

u 175 66kg = must be skinny am i right? aim for 75 and see what u wanna do from there. continue bulk or cut.

p/s chicks dig thick looking guitarist tongue.gif
ccslink
post Nov 30 2011, 12:25 PM

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aaaargh! got conned by l-carnitine!
oRoXoRo
post Nov 30 2011, 01:49 PM

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so what are the "useful" supplements?

Without weight gainer, i'm small
John91
post Nov 30 2011, 03:50 PM

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I find weight gainer useful for filler meals especially for ectomorphs, helped me break some plateaus if taken correctly. 66kg is thin for 175cm, not proportionate.
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post Nov 30 2011, 10:06 PM

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How bout jack3d from USP Lab?
Mihawk7
post Dec 2 2011, 01:54 AM

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QUOTE(John91 @ Nov 30 2011, 03:50 PM)
I find weight gainer useful for filler meals especially for ectomorphs, helped me break some plateaus if taken correctly. 66kg is thin for 175cm, not proportionate.
*
im currently 65kg and 175cm. can see my belly is becoming "C" shape edi but not too obvious yet. i think its not the matter of weight to decide who's thin and who's fat. just look into the mirror n decide urself smile.gif
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post Dec 2 2011, 06:38 AM

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QUOTE(Mihawk7 @ Dec 2 2011, 01:54 AM)
im currently 65kg and 175cm. can see my belly is becoming  "C" shape edi but not too obvious yet. i think its not the matter of weight to decide who's thin and who's fat. just look into the mirror n decide urself smile.gif
*
There is such a thing as being skinny-fat.
Mihawk7
post Dec 2 2011, 04:12 PM

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QUOTE(-Dan @ Dec 2 2011, 06:38 AM)
There is such a thing as being skinny-fat.
*
exactly. low muscle mass but high fat mass. but most people doesnt realise this and consider themselves normal based on BMI alone. wait till they check their body fat %

This post has been edited by Mihawk7: Dec 2 2011, 04:15 PM
LeanSupp
post Dec 7 2011, 08:01 AM

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QUOTE(shiloong7081 @ Nov 26 2011, 09:08 PM)
are whey hydrolysates useless , or are they equivalent to normal whey, so there's no need to pay the extra premium for it ?
*
whey hydrolysates works or not, but i just felt, it is just a marketing strategy.
dont really care bout the hydro or such , juz trial and error since everyone is different.

arekey
post Dec 8 2011, 11:29 AM

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QUOTE(mikehuan @ Nov 26 2011, 03:07 PM)
imho you wont go wrong with the big four:

1. whey protein/blend
2. multivits
3. creatine
4. bcaa

myself, am taking whey atm. have tried creatine and bcaa before this. no drastic change in performance imo. had more endurance while consuming bcaa. still beginner, so no comments on your last question.
*
BCAA doesn't get into the big four. Replace it with Fish Oil (EFA).
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post Dec 8 2011, 11:50 AM

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QUOTE(arekey @ Dec 8 2011, 12:29 PM)
BCAA doesn't get into the big four. Replace it with Fish Oil (EFA).
*
i guess it differs from person to person?
TSdarklight79
post Dec 8 2011, 12:16 PM

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QUOTE(arekey @ Dec 8 2011, 11:29 AM)
BCAA doesn't get into the big four. Replace it with Fish Oil (EFA).
*
It does. I can do without whey. It's overrated.
Mihawk7
post Dec 8 2011, 12:55 PM

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I just started consuming salmon fish oil today also. See how it goes
arekey
post Dec 8 2011, 01:44 PM

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QUOTE(darklight79 @ Dec 8 2011, 01:16 PM)
It does. I can do without whey. It's overrated.
*
Whey already blend with BCAA. If you have whey, no need for BCAA.
Like you case, you take BCAA and not whey. it's similar.

I Know a guy who taking BCAA 10g before and 10g after and he ripped as you.

This post has been edited by arekey: Dec 8 2011, 01:49 PM
spamfish
post Dec 9 2011, 10:44 AM

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[quote=darklight79,Nov 26 2011, 01:24 PM]
http://www.livestrong.com/slideshow/550744...ed-supplements/
Weight Gainers

The Claim: L-glutamine is a conditionally essential amino acid that has the potential to improve immunity and certain diseases of the digestive tract. It has been heavily marketed toward bodybuilders and strength/power athletes for its supposed ability to enhance muscle size and performance. The Facts: In spite of the hype, glutamine has a consistent track record of failure to enhance training performance or muscle gains [27-30]
L-carnitine

Just to share my thoughts. the above statement if Glutamine is use as a primary goals in enhancing training performance or to gain muscle then probably the above is true. However, if the primary glutamine goal is for muscle recovery then the above statement might be misleading. It feels like presenting "massage" data to support one's perspective. Just my 2 cents.

People body composition and tolrance to subtsance varies greatly due to life-style, environement, placebo effect, etc so what works for 1 does not mean it will work for all. Hence keep an open mind on readings these articles.

Also as a base stack the below is still the best

1. Recovery + build muscle - protein powder
2. General health + recovery - Multi-vitamins-minerals
3. General health - EFA (essential fatty acids)
4. Pre-workout supplements (creatine, Nitric Oxide, etc)

Anything above the 4 will be base on your objective, ie lose fats, gain strength, etc...also how much moolah $$ u got. If you can afford them spend them.

This post has been edited by spamfish: Dec 9 2011, 11:07 AM
RootOfJesse
post Mar 29 2012, 12:54 PM

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Has anyone seen this video? It basically criticizes Casein's utilization by our body as compared to whey.

This post has been edited by RootOfJesse: Apr 3 2012, 05:53 PM

 

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