To nerf:

Marauder

Reduce hp / Remove stimpack / Reduce range / Reduce damage / None

Vikings

Reduce damage / Reduce range / None

Scan

Reduce scan area/ Remove detection / Detection available only in a centered area / Reduce scan duration/ None

Mules

Put a limit to number of mules called down / Input a cooldown (of X seconds for each mules) / None

Seige Tanks

Reduce damage / Reduce range / Increase tier/ None

Reapers

Reduce speed / Remove jumping down/up / Reduce range / Increase cost/ Reduce damage/ None

Helions

Reduce speed / Reduce damage / None

Ghost

Reduce EMP range/ Reduce EMP effectiveness (i.e. reducing less shields and energy) / Makes EMP to decrease 1/2 of the shields and energy remaining of the units targetted (i.e. a unit with 100 shields and 100 energy on it will suffer 50 shield damage and 50 energy loss and a 2nd emp will reduce it to 25 and 25 remaining) / None

Which would be the best option in your guys opinion? Want to pick more than one option? Some other ideas that isn't on the list? Terrans should not be nerfed? Discuss.

IMO:
The units and abilities that i had listed above are those that i find giving terrans a slight edge against the other 2 races.

Marauders as most of you had stated pretty much kills every t1 units

Vikings are the best anti air...as having a bunch of them can 1 shot everything and kite them away and take out another unit...rinse and repeat...however, in ground mode, they are pretty alright...it's like just a bonus that they can attack ground since air mode is so awesome

Scanning pretty much kills all cloaking units...especially with it's huge range

Having mules mass dropping down a new expo (especially if it's a high yield) is just insane

Seige tanks are pretty much okay...but it's range/damage needs something to be done with...especially against the zerg...as they rely on their hp to survive and they come in a group...constant splash damage on those units burns a zerg players income

Early mass reaper harass is just difficult to keep up with...and is very economy crippling while you can constantly mine at your own base (as found in the latest idra replay at the IEM) and transition into something else with ease later...but who here has those insane micro skills like those two, right?

Helions...are just pretty much zergs mineral bane as they roast drones easily...not so useful during a clash...but is really good for harassment

Ghost

If EMP isn't protosses kryptonite...then...what terran still have against them? the MMM ball i suppose...which can do fairly well even without ghost in that composition...this composition is probably weakest to the HT...as collosi just gets sniped out by marauders with stim and if the collosi go high ground to do damage, the terrans have the medivac/scan to counter the high ground advantage...so, it's basically ht vs ghost...and ghost can spot ht's much easier than one can spot the ghost in the marine ball (AOE vs precision clicking too as well)

so, what's the best option which you guys could think will balance the gameplay a little/ more? Discuss.

I don't see why Terran units need to be nerfed... If medic is available for multiplayer games then yes, I think that would be too imba but currently I think it is quite balanced.

my friend in diamond league and uses protoss as a main.
he rapes 90% of terran players so i dont see why terran shud be nerfed.
and the zerg is damn imba. but just friggin hard to controll their stupid army only cos of the number of units vs their low hp

If you are playing at diamond league, then you maybe be able to see and exploit the benefits of terrans at a higher level...but let's just assume that you are

Have you ever went pure MMM and find yourself winning maybe 70% of your matches against toss/ zerg...throw in some seige vs zerg and some ghost vs toss and have a slightly easier victory

As the main reason why terrans are OP at the moment is because you will need to tech to T3 to counter a T1 build (MMM) and maybe still lose with T3 units and they cost a LOT and takes ages to make...XD

this thread is so insta ban/close on TL forums ololololol

+1

terran imba isnt so much their MMM.
its their mech vs zerg thats imba.

toss HAVE answers for MMM AND mech. zerg doesnt (not solid ones at least. unless ur TLO and lol mass ultra with like 6 bases). just that.

i dun go to TL forums...XD but yea, i heard that if someone claims terran is imba at a non specified post (to discuss about it)/ or a high level pro player then it will get banned...=(

zerg now has something called the magic box for mutas...which probably will give them the slight edge against mech?

protoss is HT for MMM...but it's hard...not impossible, but it's just hard

For pros...maybe it'll be easier?XD

This post has been edited by LostWanderer: Aug 25 2010, 11:50 AM

true the terran imba-ness is mostly due to their flexibility vs zerg...
imagine a terran with more map control over a zerg

toss is pretty decent vs terran but the early marauder opening would just kill any non-high lvl toss

Terran is stupidly imba against Zerg.

Even Morrow admitted that.
Idra whines about it on every game he plays against Terran.

Mass reapers -> MMM -> Thor iz hya -> dead Zerg

unless u are idra, u would probably die after the mass reaper stage

spoilers for the IEM round 1



idra died in the IEM after the mass reaper stage

go play with ur magic box and letme know whats the result then. lol.

magic box does nothing actually...
it looks amazing when idra does it on tarson but it was tarson's mistake as a whole for clumping his thors together and not having support for his thors...
korean terrans (ogsSTC etc) usually support with marines using the marine/thor compo with some medivecs...

spoiler tag it then. lol

but yeah, lol idra

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Added on August 25, 2010, 11:57 amcombo, medivacs. what kinda dictionary/autocomplete ur on anyways >.>

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 25 2010, 11:57 AM

ya nerf terran

hardly spoilers since i think most of us here stream it live >.<

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Added on August 25, 2010, 11:59 amcompo = short form for composition
u play wow arena u should know this rite

as for medivacs, sincere typo from me as i am a toss lol (changed back to toss for 2s after my partner bug me that my terran macro sucks T.T)

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Aug 25 2010, 11:59 AM

well, i think that the magic box does help somewhat...at least the muta's aren't dying to thors that easy i guess, still...there are marines to worry about

we use setup more any anything. lol. or LOLCLEAVE LOLWIZARDS

usually i lose like hell when opponent T goes 2 thor 4-ish hellion few MM and a few tanks..nothing i can do as a zerg player

i can hold on my front door quite nicely but when the tanks start to push in step by step and start blasting my base at that moment there is nothing i can do but to push out with my entire army end up lose all of them

i wish there is a counter for those army combination

the only thing that i think to be nerf is battlecruisers... they pretty much own the ground units, even the air units cant do much except corruptor for zerg, dont know about toss.. so hard to counter it if using zerg against mass battlecruisers =_=..

but then i think this only happens in practice league where i cant harrass them.. giving them chance to mass battlecruisers..

Some of the suggestions are just ridiculous.

maybe smaller range for seige? 13 range is pretty too far i think...>.<"

you blast at their buildings when they are hiding...you blast at their units when they come out...XD...of course, you can throw down a nydus and backdoor into the base...but who win's later? Also, terran buildings can fly off it that happens...haha

Hey, not all suggestions are and will be brilliant...and, well...i'm not a game developer and even game developers do carry out imbalances in the game itself...
i didn't say that hey ppl...pick that option and it's you guys who should pick it...and maybe weed some of those bad ideas out...but oh well...thanks for the 1 line "compliment" too i guess...=)

This post has been edited by LostWanderer: Aug 25 2010, 12:15 PM

hardly heard anyone complaining BC is OP.. If you gun down 1 BC it is gonna cost them a lot, and feedback from HT work really well against bc

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Added on August 25, 2010, 12:13 pmThat's what tank for.. if not what is tank for?

This post has been edited by Sky.Live: Aug 25 2010, 12:13 PM

wat is magic box

hmmm when the terran have marines, going to the magic box (flying hover then pressing s) would kill around 5-6 mutas from the marine balls...
i would suggest going dimaga's build (dimaga vs tarson 3rd place game for IEM2010)

server thing i guess...

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Added on August 25, 2010, 12:15 pminfestors mind control!

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Aug 25 2010, 12:15 PM

Either they nerf Terran or buff Zerg. Either ways I'm happy

tanks had been nerfed many times in the game...from 70 base dmg till 50...still it pretty hurts much zerg players most with that insane range and damage...protoss can still kind of counter tanks with some phoenixes...but oh well...maybe that's for the zerg players to create another plan to counter?

as for infestor to mind control BC...it's a bit risky as infestors are squishy...if there's only 1 or 2 bc, the infestors may survive...but if there is a pretty decent amount...will gg too

still, probably best bet is infestors against t3 units for zerg

This post has been edited by LostWanderer: Aug 25 2010, 12:21 PM

Zerg players already have their hands full trying to counter mass Reaper

The hesitation in your post just shows that you arent sure.

Also, half of the suggestions you make are unreasonable, as it will make a decent unit to a totally useless unit or changes the race's intended design.

Siege Tanks are fine the way they are.

I think the problem lies on Zerg themselves, as there are claims saying that they are lack one unit, like a Lurker. Or maybe just buff Roaches back. I just hope Zerg doesnt have that fundamental problem which is hard to fix. Something like DoW's Tau or Tyranids where they either can be too strong or too weak.

Im Protoss player,hence, i have nothing to say on the balance of the game.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: Aug 25 2010, 12:26 PM

related : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=terran+OP

ask the zerg in this mutha fxxker

It isn't Terrans that is OP. Its the Zerg that needs a buff.

replace vikings with goliaths,
remove reapers for their madness harvesters/buildings sacking,
nerf battlecruisers,
nerf banshees (or make it +1 tech) (their cloaking and attking early game sucks),
yes i agree nerf marauders, their dmg is insane for a lvl 1 unit,
terran has the best defence, air-to-air vikings (and they can transform to vs ground wtf!! imagine 30 of those coming! gg!), and stupid reapers to make u waste more time after 10 harvesters are gone...
and they have nuke ==

isnt that enuff to prove their imba-ness?

and yes i pity the zerg, they are weak in SC2. Really weak especially early game, unless u get 3 hatcheries running with some tech and many unit types to build (mutalisks, hydras, roaches, zerglings etc)... (all with speed, range upgrade)

This post has been edited by Davidtcf: Aug 25 2010, 02:04 PM

Do Protoss have any problems against Terrans?

What's the point of this thread? You won't gain anything by posting it here nor in TL. Blizzard programmers are doing their jobs and such threads are pointless

It's pointless but we need some rant too when we loose xD.

It's good to whine once a while, it makes u feel good especially when u loose many times to terran.

On the other hand i think toss is fair strong against terran, not sure how big is emp affecting toss since I am neither a terran or toss player

The point of this thread is just to know what's on your mind when you are against a terran...and how a terran thinks of the game i guess

I do agree that Terran vs Protoss is not as bad as terran vs zerg...XD

TvT...don't know much about this matchup...rarely heard anything about this matchup too

you aren't supposed to build only mutas. on top of magic box, for mutas to work against terrans you have to add ling/blings. you just need 2 or 3 blings to reach their marines and they'll be all dead.

There's already strategy threads for all the races, this is just like an overlap or what its available. I guess we should create nerfing threads for all the races eh? gosh ._.

battlecruiser is super pricey and it takes a lot of time to make one. It is not as easy as it said " Mass battlecruiser and gg zerg " HT + Overload airdrop banelings works well againts MMM..

Stop whining which race is imba and think of how to counter back is much more better.

Alright, lets go with Protoss:

Warp Ray that can OMGWTF pawn everything in seconds.
Chargelot that can charge towards your unit.
Perma invisible DT and Observer.
Colossus that pawn everything on ground.
Warp Gate allowing you to warp in from anywhere.

Lets nerf all of them.

Thank gawd Blizzard didnt you lot doing their balancing.

Pointless thread.

The point of this thread is to say TERRAN'S OP.

This thread is pointless , those that have been winning using terran will obviously say there's nothing wrong with Terran.

If there are more than 1 or 2 BC and there is no counter, something is wrong with you, not overall Terran balance.

I think it's more like Zerg isnt very well designed in the first place.

Im still not a fan of Hydra can only build after Lair.

You pwned by terran a lot isn't ?

it's void ray cheese...not warp ray...=p

anyway, a charged vr is really powerful...no doubts

also, i did also kinda wanna see how people react to such topics...asians and (majority?) westerners...as i made the same exact post in gfaqs sc2 board...

and amazingly...i found that gamefaqs people are pretty open more to discussion topics than simply ranting about such a topic was created

more elites here than over there i guess?XD

This post has been edited by LostWanderer: Aug 25 2010, 03:04 PM

not nearly as OP as Terran

Yah I admit I purposely used Zerg for the past week all the time to see whether there is anyway to counter the MMM rush/ Reaper.

Protoss player here.

A lot of units are "overpower" but when it comes down to economy you cant fight terran, cuz they dont need as much to pump their CHEAP UNITS.

Dont need to talk about late game or tier 2.

Lets talk 3 rax MM. vs 3 gate Zealot/Sentry/Stalker

25 SCV vs 25 Probe = equal (cost wise)
3-4 supply/pylon=equal
3 rax vs 3 gate = equal
2 tech lab 1 reactor (150 min 100 gas) vs Core = Toss leading 100 gas
Concussive Shell 60 seconds vs Warpgate 140 secs (close to 70 if spend 4 chrono boost) = almost equal

Army (this is where it goes IMBA)
3 marauder 2 marine (400 min 75 gas) vs 2 zealot 1 stalker 1 sentry (375 mineral 150 gas) = equal considering toss was leading 100 gas.

then ask yourself this 3 marauder 2 marine vs 2 zealot 1 stalker 1 sentry OR any combination you want with similar cost.

Can the toss win? with the concussive shells? NO NO NO!

that's not even considering the fact that if terran all in marauder which means lesser scv MORE units.

Is there a way to beat this? NO.

its basic math. 100 min 25 gas unit >>>>>> 125 min 50 gas units or 200 mineral (2 zealot) or 150 mineral (1 zealot 1 sentry)

You statements are amazing.

Oh,try Team Liquid too.

Terran isnt that bad too.

you cant do the maths like that...

1)Protoss have Chrono Boast so they must have more probes than the terran
2) Toss need only 1 probe to build stuff without wasting mineral digging time = 1 probe build while the other 2 dig mineral.
3) Terran need to sacrifice 3 SCVs mineral digging time because of building barracks.
4) Techlab + Shell = around 140 seconds
5) Reactor need to be built as well
6) Since protoss have more money, people usually go for 1 zealot 2 stalker 1 sentry.
7) 2 stalker + 1 sentry = 1 hit ko for marines.

no. it served its purpose. i get to see that terran is op rap outta it.

Funniest balance thread ever, and I thought people in TL were blabbering idiots.
I don't know in which universe dropping MULEs in high yield give insane incomes, MMM becoming imba, BCs OP, Cloak banshees are too early tech (I LOL'ed hard for this); and how counters like proper scouting, low HP and tech requirements can be excuses for other races but not for Terran units.
But the best is

Is it just me? Or doesn't this statement obviously go two ways?

BCs are really really slow...
if u watched some videos of pro zerg players, they punish terrans going BCs with infestors to mindcontrol them shooting other BCs...
then move in with hydras...

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Added on August 25, 2010, 3:56 pmsurprisingly idra went pure mutas vs tarson in iem semis and did pretty well...
as i said, better for zerg to go with the dimaga build against terran

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Added on August 25, 2010, 4:00 pmthe problems with mules as stated by even the progamers is that the 0 cooldown for them...
in other words u can just spam mule when u have high energy especially at ur new expansion vs the periodic need to spawn larvae (zerg) and chrono (toss) as those does not stack...
jz put a 2 sec CD on mules would solve mules...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Aug 25 2010, 04:01 PM

Depends on whether it's really imba or not.

er, for

Reaper rush
plant a sunker in ur base can counter it.

bro, u forgot to calculate the costs and time needed for protoss units compared to terrans..

that's why in the end terran still own... especially if it starts from early game up till the end

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Added on August 25, 2010, 6:00 pmexactly, well said

This post has been edited by Davidtcf: Aug 25 2010, 06:00 PM

wow i not even talking about mule and chrono boost.
and i'm talking about marauder not marine...
2talker 1 sentry 1 hit ko marine? wow of course la but marauder?
1 zealot 2 stalker 1 sentry? wow you try vs 3 marauder and see with concussive shell you dead.

Well Hydra can't exactly be a Tier 1 unit now, considering the insane DPS they have now.

Zergs are doing pretty well in korea though well that only makes you wonder if the zergs there are actually playing the game and figuring out counters rather than whining like all zerg's players here are visibly doing .

This post has been edited by Laguna: Aug 25 2010, 06:41 PM

put it simple.

if Terran pwnz both Protoss and Zerg, then Terran needs to be nerfed.

if Terran vs Protoss can stand pretty well but Zerg having problem, then Zerg needs to be buffed.

That said, perhaps Reapers would require a specialty key for them to jump the ledge? Something like Protoss' Blink function. Takes energy to jump and has a cooldown time.

more like their speed and their ability to be massed vs zerg with easy transition =p

don underestimate high templar, MMM ball can be smashed like taufu if u know how to use it... if u know how to... IF....

btw , terran pwn u too much isn't ? y feel so offended ? lol.....

This post has been edited by Nandeska: Aug 25 2010, 06:49 PM

ability to be massed? build time is quite slow though but resource wise it's much lesser than marauders and with huge moving advantage + high dmg towards buildings and units.

or even make them weaker?

how many buildings to reach high templar? and they're so slow.

of course if you manage to get a few of them - how much damage can you do with medivac healing them? and the quantity they already have?

Yeah. I pretty much fear any Toss player who knows how to use HT correctly.

Watch some korean replays instead of EU/US replay and u will get d idea

i get what you're saying la. just my thought on how long it takes to get to them when T already massed their MMM.

as you said. IF you know how to use it. good for frying burrowed zergs too.

That would be the case if high templars didnt require so much tech and research. MMM balls are formed really fast. My suggestion would be to nerf the concussive shells upgrade.. i think that would pretty much be enough. The kiting capability is pretty insane, especially with stimpack...

its more like a terran player having it can out micro any other players =p

Terran's are imbalance hmmm wait till you see proxy evo chamber rush into brood ling now that's just freaking ....... smart.

how about taking away the sensor tower? or at least reduce the radius.. it sure kills the element of suprise =_=

Nothing to say about that.

Bloody time bombs.

oh well might as well just nerf everything.. quit sc2 and play solitare

actually isntead of nerfing why not buff?

what we know: -

- PvZ is by far the most balanced matchup as agreed by pro gamers
- PvT is in the terran's favor if the terran turtle up
- TvZ is screwed up

- ZvZ is boring zergling/ baneling based
- PvP is highly dependent on the gate timings and ways around it (from day9 himself)
- TvT is pretty decent such as drops

in the end, the tweaking will involve every race in the game.

Terran is OP? I have more problems fending off Protoss considering Collossus and stalker rush rather than Terran bio-balls and Mech rush. Anyway, speaking about OP ? @@ Why not speaking about fixing the pathing issues of Ultralisks, they looks awful and cumbersome when it comes to surrounding the enemies.

it applies to all melee units la. look at how stupid zerglings looks when they can't reach their target. they run around in circles.

zealots also. DT also. marine i don't recall any close combat units, Firebats not found in multiplayer.

that's the point...
i could whine all days bout MMM with stim raping my 4gate army but its 3 race and it affects the balance...

No idea lol. Used to playing with SC1 still consider new with SC2. I hate terran w/o medics. But zerg is still my best race comes from SC1. Prwn a few terrans with zergling rush but still, mid~late game, total owned by both terran n protoss. Heck, new hydra hard to get. Worse is those pesky reapers coming from nowhere to ur base. Only way I find to counter it is mass burrow zerglings everywhere. Still, get owned most of the time. Oh well, still new to it. Maybe if I find some way to crazy play zerg I can share something. Love zerg anyway, too bad they change the soundtrack into somewhat cuter voice compare to SC1 tho.

dun worry, u will get used to it...
people who thought sc2 is the nicer graphics version of SC1/BW is usually surprised at how different the mechanic is...

btw, the terrans heal with medicvacs now which also serve as a dropship...

yup. it's different. earlier fren also told me is SC1 with nicer graphics.

with the introduction of new units and the removal of some older units, the game changed quite a fair bit.

thats what EVERYONE said during beta days till they ACTUALLY get to play the beta

SC2 is actually SC1+Red Alert 2..

i think is red alert 3, only 3 got those samurais with viking-like planes and mechs...

terran has bcome like the japs in RA3, just that more imba as they are not the softest at all... that belongs to zerg.

banshee = orca from RA2

as for RA3 jap unit...

that one is air to ground and ground to air...

viking is air to air and ground to ground...still, one of those transformation units...haha

no units can jump ledge like reapers can though in the RA series

collosus = from tiberium wars from skrin (sp?)...forgot what unit is that called

True, i just cant accept it that it is a high dps after Lair anti air unit.

What i think is, a faction of a strategy game like Zerg, which relies on numbers with weak individual units are generally hard to balance.

Blizzard will get it right, but it will take a lot of time.

Even in other RTS like DoW2's Tyranids, DoW1's IG, CoH:EF's Russians, C&C3's Scrin had the same problem: it's either they are too strong or too weak. They all share similar characteristic.

Because it's done by the same guy who designed those games. And he is in Blizzard now.

There is a Viking cousin in RA3. Tengu. Exactly the same.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: Aug 26 2010, 11:23 AM

to me, zerg has sort of become Scrin.

colossus is like the Scrin tripod.

You mean protoss.

haha goldfries multitasking posting in Starcraft and photography forum that's why 'tripod' come out haha.

My personal feel also is that Zerg needs a buff more than Terran needs nerf.

buffing zerg mess up the PvZ balance which is the most balanced matchup at the moment...

eh no leh. i'm referring to zerg, as in some of the units. infestor in particular. banelings somewhat remind me of Scrin units also, with that green bag at the back.

it's a mix la. scrin unit also go to Protoss in form of colossus.