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 V3. Swiftlet Keeping Discussion, Home of Fuciphagus Domesticus

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Cergau
post Aug 8 2010, 02:23 AM

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QUOTE(penpower @ Aug 7 2010, 09:50 PM)
Heritage Trust group is a group that fight for heritage status,whether swiftlet keepers will prevent georgetown from listed as heritage site is not really matter. As long as they Think that it is a threat to them, they will get rid the thread.

They will not cares if hundreds and thousands of malaysians who depended on this industry to survive, please spread this word to them, survive, not making profit but purely for survival to feed elders, to feed childrens.

To them they really don't cares if these keepers will have no food to feed their families, have no money to pay for basic needs and even more if millions of birds die.

Tell the ruling party in penang, this industry is not about how much profit we can make, it is how many families in georgetown that depended on it for survival.
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Read here as posted earlier
http://www.www.igeorgetownpenang.com/opini...elines-in-place

The writer does not claim that BH will threaten the heritage status.
She is merely writing about BHs and the heritage status in the same article.
If you do not read it slowly you may get the impression or get confused that one is a threat to the other.
The heritage status was granted with the present BHs in existence!!!

She just wants peace and quiet and the fear of bird borne diseases removed from Georgetown.
She also wants DVS to guarantee and be accountable if ever any swiftlet borne diseases ever breaks out.
She's probably been fed lots of hogwash about swiftlet borne diseases.

I've got suggestions for her,
1)it's wiser she moved away from Georgetown to somewhere else more to her liking.
2)if the cost of her wishes runs into 100s of millions RM and thousands w/o the means of a livelihood and 100s of thousands of dead swiftlets...if she has the resources ...let her buy up all the Georgetown BHs and kill the swiftlets herself when she shut them down and still face those hungry and angry folks at her door.

And to the Png govt...wise up....FDIs will start to trickle in only if they see local entrepreneurs treated right!!!!
1 person's wants is never equivalent to the thousand's needs.

Maybe in addition to Png having the Lizard King... wants to add a swiftlets mass murderer...
Every animals rights and heritage NGOs ever listed on the net will get to hear of this mass murder.
Cergau
post Aug 12 2010, 11:49 AM

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QUOTE(penpower @ Aug 12 2010, 09:25 AM)
Mr Lucas could be from another planet or he is from the past as no one from the present generation think liked our forefathers who fought for nothing but rightous. No compromise, no self centered, and with no fear.

Unfortunately, you might be the only one left. Maybe Tengku Razaliegh is right that the present generation in power just let the future generation down. The future generation of swiftlet keepers and malaysians will have to clean up all the mess that the present swiftlet keepers left.

I think the present generation of forumer's here are more interested to talk about how good their swiftlet keeping skills and etc and etc.
i am delighted that some of you shared the same view in not suggesting to the authorities that only existing farms allowed to stay, but how many of you had done just that when you meeting with the authorities? very very few and none from this forum. when pushed by them, you all will say it, please at least allow the existing to stay in order to protect you own investment.

this is not a popular subtopic here, please go on and talk about how good your swiftlet skills are. tq.
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Brave words.
What are your proposals to clean up the mess?

This is a special interest group forum for EBN, as such the talk is about EBN, we all try to avoid politics (though not successful always biggrin.gif ).
Maybe if you have shared some specifics instead of general opinions you may be able to generate more discussion.

Cergau
post Aug 13 2010, 07:36 PM

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selected lies, insinuations and fear mongering from an article on the Png Forum in the Sun paper....
One can easily surmise the author's leaning

1)Not only do the birds leave their dung all over the place;
2)If such bird farming is allowed in an urban or heritage area, what next? If someone opts to rear chickens, goats or pigs, would that also be allowed?
3)Many bird-nest operators are plying their trade in heritage buildings even though the Municipal Council of Penang Island forbids bird nesting in places gazetted as heritage structures or zones. (Any truth to this statement????)
4)Added to that is a contention that local stakeholders such as heritage groups, the state government and residents likely to be affected by the breeding of swiftlets in their neighbourhoods, were not consulted during the formulation of federal guidelines for the industry.

And instead, the Association of Swiftlet Nests Industry was consulted. Its representatives have been put in the technical committees to approve applications (for bird-nest farming), raising questions of conflict of interest.

Read more here.....
http://www.sun2surf.com/article.cfm?id=50579
Cergau
post Aug 18 2010, 01:14 PM

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At long last an article on swiftlet w/o the bashing
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysi...ets-and-penang/
Cergau
post Aug 23 2010, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(htc @ Aug 23 2010, 09:16 AM)
Consumers fall for Nest-y scam
BY NG CHENG YEE
CHENGYEE@THESTAR.COM.MY
PETALING JAYA: “Blood nest” – a much sought after variety of bird’s nest – is actually tainted with dangerous chemicals to deceive consumers into paying double the price for a premium grade.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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Fear mongering to justify the centralised processing for the 5 (maybe more by now) plants already approved.
The timing of this article fit the spin cycle with the date you shared.. about the 1GP by the PM? 26/Aug?

...."high ammonia content to give them a uniform bright-red colour"
BH doesn't have high ammonia by it's nature?
Blood nest doesn't occur naturally?
You be the judge, this shot was taken 2 mths ago in Sabah by a fren hunting for BH locations.
The whole flock produces the same non white nests.
Maybe Sabah birds eat only fertiliser as both nitrates and ammonia are present in fertiliser biggrin.gif

I was told simple folks around here put up nets around their doors and windows of their houses to prevent the birds frm staying there.
Lucky people!!!
user posted image
Cergau
post Aug 23 2010, 02:26 PM

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QUOTE(West Wing @ Aug 23 2010, 01:35 PM)
As for some red nests in BH that I saw, could possible due to the mild steel sheet that some place over their ceiling to prevent theft and due to too high the humidity/ leaking of the roof  that the metal become wet and oxidation occured, thus bleaching the nest into red in color. The original red nest found in our BH @ town are not fully red as some part of the nest remain brown or lighter red unlike the uniform red nests found in the market.

That's what I believe and most of those Red EBN we saw in China are mainly manufactured Red Nests specialization of the Indo. You can send your brown nest there and in a week, return as red nest by paying a certain processing fee.
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Unc WW,
The thrust of my comment was that blood nest do occur naturally.
I wasn't disputing that the uniformly red ones are may be faked by unscrupulous folks.
The original news article imply that there are no natural blood nest and even if you find some they are 'doctored' and bad for health.

Instead of educating the public to differentiate the two, it implicitly tell the public to stay away from blood nest.

As to your possible explanation...how to you explain the brownish nest in a brick building as in the pics I posted?
Maximus? unlikely, I recall Maximus builds white nests with lots of feathers rendering the whole nest black..but you can see the white in between the feathers.
I am not relying on any documents or secondary source of info...these shots were received 1st hand and the sender fren didnt even notice the non white nests until I pointed it out.
I am convinced, blood nest do occur naturally. If recollection serves me well, there was a write up (dun recall where now) that speculated it's the difference in the food source or the water in their feeding ground.
The colour comes from naturally occurring minerals/polymers in their habitat that ended up in the swiftlet food chain.

I think arowana (maybe some others too) enthusiast feed their fish with prawns to bring out the colour...maybe I am wrong on this...and recollection is failing me. High levels of chitin?
Chitin is present in hard shelled (exoskeleton) insects like grasshoppers and others???
Cergau
post Aug 31 2010, 09:26 AM

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QUOTE(West Wing @ Aug 30 2010, 09:08 AM)
" Ask not what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for the country"
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The country need saving from the current government.
That is our patriotic duty,... not some hollow and hypocritical flag waving.
It is traitorous to let things continue as it is.

The COUNTRY you can't change, the GOVERNMENT?....certainly!!.


Cergau
post Aug 31 2010, 11:45 PM

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All,
A July Star report seem to indicate the 1GP is already in circulation.
http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?file...&sec=southneast

As shared earlier on the forum, Aug 26 has come and no news of Najib's 1GP launch.
Anyone with a copy of the 1GP, appreciate a PM.
Thanks in advance.
Cergau
post Sep 9 2010, 01:41 PM

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QUOTE(tuckfook @ Sep 8 2010, 07:00 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


If this is actively discussed, I'll then report on all results, which hopefully will guide everyone in one way or another.
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tuckfook,
Please do report your actions and results.
Any experimentation is interesting and a learning of either something to try out or something to avoid doing.


This post has been edited by Cergau: Sep 9 2010, 01:43 PM
Cergau
post Sep 12 2010, 09:05 AM

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QUOTE(tuckfook @ Sep 12 2010, 08:19 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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My initial hunch too was 'difficult flight path' as per aeiou228.
You have entrance/exits with diff features.
The west entrance is a free fall to the airwell whereas the north and south ones require some gliding to the airwell.
Is your west entrance the more popular one?

If none of the suggested problems rings true...I will hazard a wild guess....sound turbulences (if ever there was such a thing)??
I will assume all your tweeters will face the entrances as such may cause/cancel/create a sound phenomena that the birds dun like at the East end?

Planks are new??? Does it give off a strong smell??
Insufficiently dry? Sun/kiln dried?
Cergau
post Sep 25 2010, 11:14 PM

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QUOTE(West Wing @ Sep 25 2010, 10:14 AM)
If you are looking for BH @ MY AREA ie. Terengganu and Pahang, pm me on your requirement and mind you that the price will be based on location and most importance are the nests @ Rm800 =Rm1000 per nest. Still interested.....phone me as one BH is for sale and it got 2500 nests.


Added on September 25, 2010, 8:32 pmI believe that most of us here have downloaded a copy of the drafted 1GP but so far no one has any remarks on the GP. Is the drafted copy really OK but I have many reservation on it.

One of it is the height of the BH allowed @ agriculture land which stated only 12 m is allowed. As in agriculture land, higher is better to prevent thieves and also to attract birds. To build one @ 12 M is to leave the BH at the mercy of the thieves. I heard that land scape is the reason and what's a lousy reason and most of my friends that have BHs @ agri land are 45 fts high and still installed so many steel doors and 2 alarms system with multiple CCTV cameras which at time I joked that the thieves will just take away the sensitive quality CCTVs costing a few thousand ringgit, my friends.

Two weeks ago, the thieves tried to enter through the 45fts high birds entry hole and has triggered the alarm at 2AM. Only after 2 hours, My friends with the help of afew policemen went to the area and the thieves has long gone.   
Without the police friends along, I believe most of us dare not go alone to the agriculture land or else, something nasty may happen.

Do you know that I intended to build my BH at 56 fts ...and I will not care if they will prevent me from register my BH as I am concern for the birds, my nests and myself.
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Unc WW,
What date does it say on the so called 'draft 1GP' you are quoting from?
Cergau
post Sep 26 2010, 06:14 PM

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QUOTE(West Wing @ Sep 26 2010, 11:30 AM)
I am referring to 1GP issued on Jan 2010 and I believe you too have downloaded one. The Fed/ local Asso. has promised long ago to get me a drafted copy but I still cannot get it. So, have to download from internet and I Have spoken to the Fed. Asso. Head on the matter and since he is from Trg., he assured me that he will bring the matter to be considered by the MB of Trg but I don't know about other states or that the all well with the rest of you all if implemented.
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A copy of the same was anonymously emailed to me...I didn't realise that that someone had made that available for download.
Barring anyone having a copy later than Jan 2010, we can discuss the contents based on the Jan 2010 copy.
Let's start with the height as from your pre posting...I too am puzzled by that.
What is the basis for the height limit? Did they pull the figure from thin air?
I dun like 'prescriptive' kind of guidelines that put a limitation on folks wanting to experiment.
If we stick to 12m we will never know if the swiftlets will ever prefer a 5m height for each floor, thus averaging 15m, do we?
Cergau
post Sep 27 2010, 12:16 AM

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QUOTE(tuckfook @ Sep 26 2010, 06:45 PM)
I may be wrong but I believe it has something to do with the building act/bye laws whereby buildings up to 3 flrs  have less stringent requirements and more floors require strict engineering supervision etc.

Perhaps an architect or civil engineer cam clarify.
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Am assuming you are correct on this, but it's by floors...not by height.
If by floor then it's more generic thus leaving height free for experimenting.

Was informed that DVS had a 1GP workshop in KT today.
Cergau
post Sep 28 2010, 11:13 AM

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QUOTE(Rangnok @ Sep 27 2010, 10:49 AM)

Added on September 27, 2010, 11:00 amsorry to so many sifus,
how about 'live cable' installed for security purposes, it is against the law in malaysia?
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I have seen electrical fences installed at those oil palm plantations encroaching into the wilderness.
Also there are quite a few smallholders who install those off the shelf electrical fences to keep away pests like wildboars.
You can g**le for them in BM, they are mostly written up in their blogs.
I dun think they are 'live' but stepped down to low amps but high voltage.

1GP contents.
1)Building height.
We'll leave that aside until more clarity available on the basis of such requirement.

2)GAHP requirements. (Section 4.4)
It's already a requirement to attend GAHP for swiftlets by DVS ...why is it necessary to transcribe the GAHP contents onto the 1GP.
It's superfluous and leaves room for selective interpretation.
It's like the ISA, when it was debated in Parliament assurances were given that it was meant for terrorist, see what's happening today.
I feel we shd not have contents whose enforcement depend on the goodwill and interpretation of the authorities.
That aside, it's repetitive and cluttering the 1GP.
What if the PBTs now want to transcribe all their local acts into the 1GP!!!
Eg
Kepakaran dan Tanggungjawab Pengusaha
It;s the owner's responsibility to ensure that workers/operators are sufficiently skilled including identifying possible symptoms of sick birds.
Does attending GAHP make them so, if not then why make us sit through the GAHP where feedback is almost unanimous that's it's useless and merely something to tolerate.
The permutations of a skilled worker is endless and CAN become a reason for turning down a licence.
I say no to such 'open-ended' conditions.... else define it...what constitute a skilled worker.
If they want to make the 1GP meaningful then define/remove these 'open ended' conditions and make it clear and simpler for us to adhere to.
Cergau
post Oct 2 2010, 05:46 PM

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QUOTE(tuckfook @ Sep 28 2010, 02:14 PM)
Electrification, as long as it not directly connected to the TNB grid, there is no law against electrification.
I use a neon transformer, 15,000volts across 2 wires and 7500 volts to earth. It zaps owls, cicaks and other unwanted guests.
Humans might find the voltage somewhat uncomfortable but it does not kill directly, the fall might !

Smarter unwanted human guests have learnt to short circuit the system, hence the 2 live wires to earth system. In any case as soon as the system is shorted the alarm will be triggered.
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I am quite curious, from my reading of the pro electrical fence used for cattle farming, the neutral is 'earthed'.
How does the perpetrator contacts both wires rappelling off your BH walls?
I believe with multiple 'live' it can't be shorted.
Was giving this some thought....the favorite entry... thru the LMB..can this be 'armed' if a non conductor rope is used to scale it?
Was thinking of a rope guillotine biggrin.gif

QUOTE(tuckfook @ Sep 28 2010, 02:14 PM)
in my honest opinion this 'idiot' is fully capable and considerably experienced to the the job, so I fulfill the requirements admirably.
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Anyway my point was to leave these 'funny' conditions from where they came from...GAHP for swiftlets.
Attending GAHP alone fulfills the requirement.
Putting these 'funny' conditions as part of 1GP makes us liable to fulfill them.

QUOTE(tuckfook @ Sep 28 2010, 02:14 PM)
Waste not your time seeking UTOPIA for it does not exist physically.
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Nudging them for decent service will be fine for the moment. biggrin.gif


Cergau
post Oct 2 2010, 06:26 PM

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QUOTE(dunsuntutmybuntut @ Oct 2 2010, 05:20 PM)
I mean... 18/18... if it were 15/18 ok la.... this is 100% approval rate. SO... to me this all shows us that..... even the PBT have no idea!!!
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That's when CLEAR guidelines comes into play.
What's the problem with 100% approval rate. What if 100% adheres fully to the guidelines?
Does making 75% avg (or some other %) approval the real measure of serious evaluations?
Making the 25% applicants sweat cos' they can't approve beyond 75%?
I think not. This is pure bureaucratic BS.

QUOTE(dunsuntutmybuntut @ Oct 2 2010, 05:20 PM)
1GP is just a guide. The reason it was left open ended was because... in the end, it is still the PBT's with the juice, the undang-undang kecil, acts and enforcement. DVS will just 'advise'. That is why... if a state enactment existed... it will 'facilitate' the industry. Now is the time for associations to educate PBT's (if the state DVS doesn't), educate the politicians (yes, kalau YB kata ok, most of the time PBT will follow suit) and the general population.
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No one wants additional NEW laws for SSPs.
Leaving some conditions to the PBTs is not open-ended. The PBTs DO have the relevant laws governing some activities.
That's been specific.
Eg 50/20m is for the PBTs to chose and enforce.
In the case of the GAHP, it is an end in itself and yet it is unspecific...there is no higher authority for these except DVS themselves.
Eg 4.4.1.6 Perihal Haiwan
How on earth does one provide sufficient food when the swiftlets are having difficulties getting enough?
How does one know? Does DVS provides courses for swiftlet-talk?
They are supposed to the the 'experts' providing the guidelines...who else do we ask? PBTs?.

Cergau
post Oct 3 2010, 08:54 AM

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QUOTE(tuckfook @ Oct 2 2010, 09:14 PM)
Pro electric fences are Direct current driven and use the earth/ground as a conductor. Normally about 7500 to 15000 volts DC. The electricity is pulsed, at about 1 pulse a second. These are safety features so that an animal can theoretically escape when trapped by the conductor. By using the ground as a conductor, it ensures that the current flowing is very small as well as saving the necessity of another conductor. US, UK, Aust. legal requirements.

A neon transformer is usually Alternating current and the transformer is centre tapped, meaning when the transformer is operating, one conductor is +7500 v and the other is - 7500v so the voltage between both conductors is 15000v. The centre tap remains at 0v and is grounded so the voltage between any conductor and the ground is 7500v.
This is practically on all the time so any animal caught in any of the conductors will get electricity all the time.

When using a neon trans. shorting one wire to ground will leave the other wire still live, as can happen when grass, wet wood etc touches one wire.

All electric fences can be shorted. Shorting will not destroy an electric fence charger or neon trans as very little current flows so produces minimal heat, not enough for a transformer meltdown.

Multiple conductor fences will not short conductor to conductor but will short to ground, whereas the neon trans. will short conductor to conductor.

You'll need a very clean non conducting rope to not get a shock as water/sweat etc can turn the rope conducting. There are easier ways to enter a BH.

Many BHs in Penang use a 'Bed of nails' under the in/out hole  so any unsuspecting wannabe burglar jumping in will get a painful reception. Some are using fish hooks instead of nails for nastier effect. Note that glass will show clearly when a light is shone over it whereas rusty nails and hooks may not.
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tuck fook, thks for the elaboration
I suppose with an inverter the neon-type will work off a battery pack?
Am assuming the pro-type (DC) will work off the battery pack.
..maybe deep cycle ones?

Cergau
post Oct 3 2010, 10:29 AM

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QUOTE(tuckfook @ Oct 3 2010, 10:09 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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That brings us to CCTVs and alarms
Does your night vision enabled CCTV run full time or upon sensor being triggered?
And it's IP connected too? Wired or wireless?
I am hoping to put together a 'ultimate' remote enabled system based on easily available technology.
When I last investigated a year ago, there were Chinese made camera systems that sends off shots upon triggering (PIR sensors).
Option of sending the shots to a predetermined web site or hand phone or both.
Even an option of handphone triggering a recorded voice message in situ in reaction.
Comes in a package of camera/s, sensors and a control unit.
You need to only plug in a GSM SIM card. (I was warned of the then incompatibility of Chinese GSM SIM and our local ones)
Just wasnt sure if they are being used locally and it's reliability.
Cergau
post Oct 10 2010, 08:34 PM

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Info for all.
There may be a BH item on TV1 at 9PM tonight (10Oct2010/Sun).
Cergau
post Oct 11 2010, 09:40 AM

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QUOTE(Cergau @ Oct 10 2010, 08:34 PM)
Info for all.
There may be a BH item on TV1 at 9PM tonight (10Oct2010/Sun).
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All,
The item was on TV as advised. I viewed the whole segment.
As expected, it was biased reporting and and half truths.
Generally there were 4 points
1)Noise and 2)hygiene 3)District council not taking action arising from complaints
4)the rich BHs operators DO NOT care about anyone except to make money

The location was Tg Sepat a Selangor coastal town.
The camera crew interviewed some nearby residents to listen to their grouses.
Insistently they interviewed the Kuala Langat council chief.

In 1 scene it showed bird dropping from inside a BH and that was used to emphasis the hygiene point.

Incidentally the next segment was from Penang on how fisherman are affected by the building of the 2nd bridge and not getting state help but receiving Federal help.
The location Pulau Aman at the mouth of Sg Juru which for as long ago as I can read has been classified the most polluted river in the country.
Is it coincidence...SG & PG? You draw your own conclusion and who is behind these....


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