The modern world is a place in which faith and reason are totally separate. Faith has its place, reason has its place. Schools are secularized, so are many hospitals. In short, faith and reason are seen as incompatible. It is believed that in order to individually excel, both need to go their separate way.

However, this view is very new. In the Middle Ages, this was not the case. While most view the Middle Ages as dark and chaotic, this was a period of intense illumination. The works of Aristotle and Muslim philosophers were rediscovered and spread in Europe. Universities first appeared during these times. Scholars wrote extensively on philosophy, science, theology, astronomy, and mathematics. Yet, we owe all this to the Islamic world, since they preserved this knowledge as Rome fell. We owe it to the Catholic Church, to who translated and copied this knowledge when the Islamic world declined.

Those people believed that faith and reason were, not only compatible, but senseless if separated. How can knowledge and values be separated? Are we now, after abandoning this world, living in a world in which people “know the price of everything, but the value of nothing?” (Oscar Wilde).

Well, in my point of view (as a Muslim) faith and reason cannot be separated. So, when someone said "a modern world is a place in which faith & reason are totally separated" that is not an absolute statement which explain the present modern world we are living now. The koran taught us to search for knowledge (the power of reasoning) as it makes one's status above frm others not only in the eyes of human but also our Creator. At the same time, to use it wisely according to faith. For instance there was a famous group of Muslim group called the 'Muktazilah' which depend solely on the power of reasoning. They said that ppl in the hereafter will not be able to see God since our Creator is not confine with time & space while we as the creatures are bound to it. Therefore, we cannot see God since since we are bound to time and space.

Then, emerged a famous Muslim philosopher named Al-Ghazali arguing about this matter. Since Al-Ghazali is a sunni Muslim (Muslim that use both the power of reasoning and faith) answering them. He said according to our logic and limited knowledge that we have now, we are sure to answer that way but that's not it. If we can conclude that this so called Allah (which means God, Creator) is powerful and almighty it's not a problem to Him to make us instead no longer confine to space and time. The logic behind it? Hereafter is a place where we are ageless and the place of hell and heaven is indeed not to be bounded by time and space (that's why heaven and hell is said to be eternity) or else we could have find it by now.

The lesson we can learn frm here is that we cannot depend solely on reason, so is faith. Muslim are taught to be wise and use their power of reasoning simultaneously with faith. One cannot just use faith solely like praying to God and ask for help without doing nothing! that's called stupid. So is reasoning, if we keep using reasoning solely we would end up thinking that we are GOD OURSELVES since other creatures doesnt posses the same intelligent humankind possessed and start playing God in the end.

The battle of reasoning and faith have started even before the creation of humankind. Erk, sorry for typing too much u guys might as well got bored reading all these @_@ i'll tell more if anyone wants to hear about the battle of reasoning and faith later on

the problem is faith often demand we abandon reason. how many religion welcome skeptical view of their god and holy books during their religious gathering?

knowledge and value should always be seperate, knowledge are universal, gravity work the same way everywhere in the world, but moral value are different everywhere in the world.



This post has been edited by robertngo: Apr 11 2010, 09:45 PM

The following event pretty much sum up the topic.

Faith is to commit oneself to act based on sufficient experience to warrant belief, but without absolute proof. To have faith involves an act of will. For example, many people saw Blondin walk across the gorge below Niagara Falls on a tightrope, and believed (on the basis of the evidence of their own eyes) that he was capable of carrying a man on his back safely across. But only his manager Harry Colcord had enough faith to allow himself to be carried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blondin

While almost everyone has good reasons (they saw that happened many time before) to believe that this act is doable, only his manager Harry had faith to allow himself to be carried.

Although faith and knowledge are not absolutely separate, but they can determine each other
faith determines the knowledge, OR
knowledge determines the faith

people believed this Blondin that he could walk over niagara falls over and over. But why did not they allow themselves to be carried?
It all goes down the the Murphy's Law and most importantly their own experience.

People have sat on different chairs many times, commonly without the doubt that the chair will support their weight and stay intact. They placed more faith In the chair than Blondin, and they have experienced enough with chairs to do so. People know that if you fall off the tightrope, you will be dead meat without the safety net. Most importantly the person him/herself has never experienced the ordeal before and therefore succumbing to the murphy's law , thinking " he might fall" subconsciously or consciously, they will not risk their lives for a minute on television. In this case Harry Colcord has enough knowledge about Blondin to put faith in him, filling up the rest of the gap with bravery.


This post has been edited by Keith321: Apr 12 2010, 03:35 AM

Faith and reason are separate. I believe in God by faith, but I can’t prove it to an atheist. It does not mean that I don’t use reason. On the issue of God, I chose faith and reject reason. On other issues I may chose reason over faith. It is in the individual’s preference when to choose one over the other.

Erm, well actually u can use reason to believe in God faceless. That's why we are taught to use faith and reason simultaneously in the first place. Those who follow religion blindly will always end up astray from the right path and use religion as a tool in the end by interpreting it according to whatever they want since they dont know the why and how correctly.

The power of reason can eventually strengthen one's faith faceless try look more into quantum physic and study more about our galaxy. You'll find the answer and beat any atheist u want since the answer is obvious. But remember, if they doesnt want to believe it, let them be. There's no harm in believing one.

before you say anything please provide evidence to show how does quantum physics support god...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 01:28 PM

From my understanding, it's impossible that the universe exist the way it it 'coincidentally' or 'accidentally' with so many hole that would leak to differences of matter and existence of the present. To make it easily to be understand, read this:

Albert Einstein was struck by the wondrous orderliness of the world.

You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way . . . . [T]he kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the "miracle" which is being constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands.
(Albert Einstein, Letters to Solovine (New York: Philosophical Library, 1987, 131.)

To summarize, for life to exist, we need an orderly (and by implication, intelligible) universe. Order at many different levels is required. For instance, to have planets that circle their stars, we need Newtonian mechanics operating in a three-dimensional universe. For there to be multiple stable elements of the periodic table to provide a sufficient variety of atomic "building blocks" for life, we need atomic structure to be constrained by the laws of quantum mechanics. We further need the orderliness in chemical reactions that is the consequence of Boltzmann's equation for the second law of thermodynamics. And for an energy source like the sun to transfer its life-giving energy to a habitat like Earth, we require the laws of electromagnetic radiation that Maxwell described.

Our universe is indeed orderly, and in precisely the way necessary for it to serve as a suitable habitat for life. The wonderful internal ordering of the cosmos is matched only by its extraordinary economy. Each one of the fundamental laws of nature is essential to life itself. A universe lacking any of the laws shown would almost certainly be a universe without life. Many modern scientists, like the mathematicians centuries before them, have been awestruck by the evidence for intelligent design implicit in nature's mathematical harmony and the internal consistency of the laws of nature. Australian astrophysicist Paul Davies declares:

"All the evidence so far indicates that many complex structures depend most delicately on the existing form of these laws. It is tempting to believe, therefore, that a complex universe will emerge only if the laws of physics are very close to what they are....The laws, which enable the universe to come into being spontaneously, seem themselves to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design. If physics is the product of design, the universe must have a purpose, and the evidence of modern physics suggests strongly to me that the purpose includes us."
(Paul Davies, Superforce (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1984, 243.)



This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 12:19 PM

It hints, quatum prove nothing for now...U should start read more about Stephen Hawkins books.....Physics fall under the study of physical existence, but doesn't mean we can't get any hint from there. Science discovery is based on our hints, our intuition and of coz our willingness to approach new way of thinking. How can we know how big is the sun if we don't even take a closer look??

This post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 12 2010, 12:28 PM

quantum physics does not tell you there's god,it's people that want to interpret the findings of science as evidence that support their personal belief so as to reduce the conflict between these two separate entities,it's easy and convenient to substitute god to the wonderings such as 'who is driving the conditions that eventually leads to evolution?','the atomic structure is so intricate,who made it?','the universe is so finely tuned,who did that?' etc,i can do that too,'god is driving evolution','god caused the big bang',etc... wow miraculous isn't it?god is behind all these!? but does science really tell you that god made and was the one that drove the process?the answer is NO...
I study science too but does it strengthen my faith?the answer is NO as well,instead i find it more and more convincing that god is not necessarily needed to explain everything and probably does not exist or absolutely does not exist,of course the study of philosophy does contribute a big part to my unbelief...
the reason i say this is purely on the ground to clear up your apparent misleading info that study science leads to a stronger faith,but then again,if i have to put a conclusion,i'd say it all comes down to individual to determine what's best that suits them,it's fine if you want to substitute god into the equation(that doesn't mean it's the truth),but does science really make one cling on to their faith more firmly?the answer is not necessarily...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 06:42 PM

Perhaps u should started to define your god here. God can be like an animal, human or even stone. If u suggested quantum proved nothing about God is an animal, then u probably right. Faith depends on where u wan to put

This post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 12 2010, 12:45 PM

Yup, it depends on how u relate it. Like i said before, there's no harm in believing one. If u prefer to look it that way, so be it. No one is forcing u. Im telling faceless how we can actually strengthen our faith through such discoveries. I respect u for your opinions and for being open minded thx. Btw, the answer for your question, it's for us. U have right for yours, so do we. Your statement "i say this is purely on the ground to clear up your apparent misleading info that study science leads to a stronger faith" somehow sounds like u owned science and nobody can interpret it any other way since it's contradict with ur belief i presume?

no,in your previous reply you sounded like you could defeat an atheist by using science+faith,i'm telling you you're wrong if you really think this way...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 05:38 PM

define god? the answer is simple. God to me is the Creator. That's all is enough for me. Doesnt matter how he/she/it/they look like I just want to believe that the world, especially our universe is created by something not accidentally or coincidentally happened. That's why i respect other religions and i dun mind them having different paths because at least we share something common which is to believe in the Creator and how we should be thanking them for creating us One thing for sure, our Creator is surely doesnt resemble with any of their creations.

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Added on April 12, 2010, 1:01 pmOh im sorry about that then if u found that offensive >_> just that faceless said something about to believe without base on reason and he said he cant do anything about proving god to an atheis. Thus, i told him what i knew. In order to strengthen our faith that's all and im wrong again for thinking that way? i guess the truth all lies within u then since i cant believe what i want

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 01:01 PM

I just hope life and this reality isn't a big joke, because i don't get it.

no,what i was trying to say was faith(take it as religion in this instance) is a weak spot,it's easily refutable,vulnerable to attack and often tends to lead to your defeat whenever you want to run a debate with atheists...

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 12 2010, 05:39 PM

U can define God??? That is the funniest joke i ever heard today. Like u said, god transcend the mere physical existence, and science is our way to understand it. So if u could define god, perhaps god is fall under your intellectual knowledge and just another fact in reality.
So my point is, God is huge topic, bigger than it could fix inside your brain.

This post has been edited by communist892003: Apr 12 2010, 01:14 PM

Im fine by that there's a time a Buddhist approach me and said hey u must be an idiot for believing in hell and heaven. But i just keep quite and talk to him slowly frm my point of view. I dont mind being criticize since it make us improve ourselves frm time to time. That's one the purpose i enter this forum, i want to know more about each others view and know my own weakness rather than keeping myself in my own shell and believe everything just because other ppl believe. My religion encourage me to study regardless of what is it about because knowledge is to be shared. If we keep staying in our own shell we'll never improve.

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Added on April 12, 2010, 1:26 pmIm fine by that thanks for sharing ur view on God.

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 01:26 PM

Blaze-hit,

I think now you can understand what I meant when I say "I cant convince an atheist". Thanks Clever d*** you had proved my point.

By the way, God as a creator is a bias difinition. I do not know much about Hindu except for what I learnt in school. They have Vishnu the Creator, Siva the Destroyer, and Rama the Benevolent. Form a muslim's prespective they are the same person as reflected in the names of Allah. Hey even faith has it own dispute monothesis versus polythesis. Imagine trying to convince an atheist