Well, in my point of view (as a Muslim) faith and reason cannot be separated. So, when someone said "a modern world is a place in which faith & reason are totally separated" that is not an absolute statement which explain the present modern world we are living now. The koran taught us to search for knowledge (the power of reasoning) as it makes one's status above frm others not only in the eyes of human but also our Creator. At the same time, to use it wisely according to faith. For instance there was a famous group of Muslim group called the 'Muktazilah' which depend solely on the power of reasoning. They said that ppl in the hereafter will not be able to see God since our Creator is not confine with time & space while we as the creatures are bound to it. Therefore, we cannot see God since since we are bound to time and space.

Then, emerged a famous Muslim philosopher named Al-Ghazali arguing about this matter. Since Al-Ghazali is a sunni Muslim (Muslim that use both the power of reasoning and faith) answering them. He said according to our logic and limited knowledge that we have now, we are sure to answer that way but that's not it. If we can conclude that this so called Allah (which means God, Creator) is powerful and almighty it's not a problem to Him to make us instead no longer confine to space and time. The logic behind it? Hereafter is a place where we are ageless and the place of hell and heaven is indeed not to be bounded by time and space (that's why heaven and hell is said to be eternity) or else we could have find it by now.

The lesson we can learn frm here is that we cannot depend solely on reason, so is faith. Muslim are taught to be wise and use their power of reasoning simultaneously with faith. One cannot just use faith solely like praying to God and ask for help without doing nothing! that's called stupid. So is reasoning, if we keep using reasoning solely we would end up thinking that we are GOD OURSELVES since other creatures doesnt posses the same intelligent humankind possessed and start playing God in the end.

The battle of reasoning and faith have started even before the creation of humankind. Erk, sorry for typing too much u guys might as well got bored reading all these @_@ i'll tell more if anyone wants to hear about the battle of reasoning and faith later on

Erm, well actually u can use reason to believe in God faceless. That's why we are taught to use faith and reason simultaneously in the first place. Those who follow religion blindly will always end up astray from the right path and use religion as a tool in the end by interpreting it according to whatever they want since they dont know the why and how correctly.

The power of reason can eventually strengthen one's faith faceless try look more into quantum physic and study more about our galaxy. You'll find the answer and beat any atheist u want since the answer is obvious. But remember, if they doesnt want to believe it, let them be. There's no harm in believing one.

From my understanding, it's impossible that the universe exist the way it it 'coincidentally' or 'accidentally' with so many hole that would leak to differences of matter and existence of the present. To make it easily to be understand, read this:

Albert Einstein was struck by the wondrous orderliness of the world.

You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way . . . . [T]he kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the "miracle" which is being constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands.
(Albert Einstein, Letters to Solovine (New York: Philosophical Library, 1987, 131.)

To summarize, for life to exist, we need an orderly (and by implication, intelligible) universe. Order at many different levels is required. For instance, to have planets that circle their stars, we need Newtonian mechanics operating in a three-dimensional universe. For there to be multiple stable elements of the periodic table to provide a sufficient variety of atomic "building blocks" for life, we need atomic structure to be constrained by the laws of quantum mechanics. We further need the orderliness in chemical reactions that is the consequence of Boltzmann's equation for the second law of thermodynamics. And for an energy source like the sun to transfer its life-giving energy to a habitat like Earth, we require the laws of electromagnetic radiation that Maxwell described.

Our universe is indeed orderly, and in precisely the way necessary for it to serve as a suitable habitat for life. The wonderful internal ordering of the cosmos is matched only by its extraordinary economy. Each one of the fundamental laws of nature is essential to life itself. A universe lacking any of the laws shown would almost certainly be a universe without life. Many modern scientists, like the mathematicians centuries before them, have been awestruck by the evidence for intelligent design implicit in nature's mathematical harmony and the internal consistency of the laws of nature. Australian astrophysicist Paul Davies declares:

"All the evidence so far indicates that many complex structures depend most delicately on the existing form of these laws. It is tempting to believe, therefore, that a complex universe will emerge only if the laws of physics are very close to what they are....The laws, which enable the universe to come into being spontaneously, seem themselves to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design. If physics is the product of design, the universe must have a purpose, and the evidence of modern physics suggests strongly to me that the purpose includes us."
(Paul Davies, Superforce (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1984, 243.)



This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 12:19 PM

Yup, it depends on how u relate it. Like i said before, there's no harm in believing one. If u prefer to look it that way, so be it. No one is forcing u. Im telling faceless how we can actually strengthen our faith through such discoveries. I respect u for your opinions and for being open minded thx. Btw, the answer for your question, it's for us. U have right for yours, so do we. Your statement "i say this is purely on the ground to clear up your apparent misleading info that study science leads to a stronger faith" somehow sounds like u owned science and nobody can interpret it any other way since it's contradict with ur belief i presume?

define god? the answer is simple. God to me is the Creator. That's all is enough for me. Doesnt matter how he/she/it/they look like I just want to believe that the world, especially our universe is created by something not accidentally or coincidentally happened. That's why i respect other religions and i dun mind them having different paths because at least we share something common which is to believe in the Creator and how we should be thanking them for creating us One thing for sure, our Creator is surely doesnt resemble with any of their creations.

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Added on April 12, 2010, 1:01 pmOh im sorry about that then if u found that offensive >_> just that faceless said something about to believe without base on reason and he said he cant do anything about proving god to an atheis. Thus, i told him what i knew. In order to strengthen our faith that's all and im wrong again for thinking that way? i guess the truth all lies within u then since i cant believe what i want

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 01:01 PM

Im fine by that there's a time a Buddhist approach me and said hey u must be an idiot for believing in hell and heaven. But i just keep quite and talk to him slowly frm my point of view. I dont mind being criticize since it make us improve ourselves frm time to time. That's one the purpose i enter this forum, i want to know more about each others view and know my own weakness rather than keeping myself in my own shell and believe everything just because other ppl believe. My religion encourage me to study regardless of what is it about because knowledge is to be shared. If we keep staying in our own shell we'll never improve.

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Added on April 12, 2010, 1:26 pmIm fine by that thanks for sharing ur view on God.

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 12 2010, 01:26 PM

glad u understand then ive deliver and tell what ive been told. My job is done. Glad to know u all, hope i can learn more. In the end the truth is just matter of opinions..

eh? when it comes to truth for instance, when i believe A is truth but it's doesnt mean it's a truth for X. The same goes for X, if he or she believe B is true doest mean it's true for me. This is what opinions all about. That's why i said truth is matter of opinions since ppl accept truth as what is convenience for them. I might say theory of evolution is not perfect, got flaws so i dont believe in it. But X says he/she believe in the theory since it's the only explanation (or option?) that sounds logical for them. Thus, they try their best to defend their theory no matter how many flaws is it (so are we according to them since we are 'brainless' for believing in faith). Therefore, like i said earlier it's base on person's opinions. One may not accept truth since it's not for them and one may accept truth since it's for them.

and did i said i would prefer not to believe because of faith? I made my point clear there that i dont believe simply because it have many flaws. The flaws are scientific evidences. In term of "truth is matter of opinion" even though u know there's flaws exist in such theory but u still want to believe in it since it's the most logical theory that can explain the current situation (according to u) but not for me since i believe in other theory. Thus, u have evidences for yours and i have evidences for mine. That's why im being open minded unlike those who suddenly jump into conclusion saying others are wrong just because they believe the truth lies within them alone.

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 13 2010, 02:03 PM

as long u got the point then it's settled cleverdick it's not that i dont believe in science and i appreciate ur explanation there (indeed i love science even when i was a kid) just that when it comes to forgery, not only matter of faith but science also involved. Just look at how many frauds made by scientist and archeologist just to prove themselves right? It's against the principle of science right? but they still did it just to show how true they are regardless of whatever it's need to be done (making false evidences for instance) as long it support the theory made.

Nope, pls i demand no apology in fact what is told by kenmirzz is true. I check about the pictures of those gigantic bones years ago and it's obviously fake that's why i dun argue over such thing. That's why when i saw one here im surprised to see such ppl exist. Still, that doesnt mean ppl should stop just because they failed. Thanks communist892003 for understanding. I wish to learn more. About how many frauds, i would say many robertngo. Your ratio of frauds made by archeologist 1/100 and 1/1000 seems to be exaggerated.

This post has been edited by Blaze_hit: Apr 13 2010, 04:31 PM