Hi. I posted a topic some time ago about ghosts and whether there is any scientific evidence of their existence. I was surprised when I saw that the majority of voters said that yes they believed in ghosts, but the majority of those who commented ridiculed the whole idea. See the thread here.

In this topic, I'm curious to find out whether sorcery/voodoo/witchcraft/magic is supported by any scientific evidence.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, this is what I understand: Some people claim that they can influence one's perceptions, and probably actions, through demonic intervention. Those 'sorcerers' claim that all they need is a piece from the victim, e.g. a hair or a nail. They they make a mysterious mixture with some sort of a spell. The end product supposedly will influence the victim, and this influence can be nullified if the mixture is found and dissolved or something like that.

I noticed that this idea is very very popular in some areas, e.g. southeast Asia and the Middle East. I made a quick search and found some links:

Magician with powers to heal, unite couples, find love nabbed (Kuwait)
http://www.arabtimesonline.com/NewsDetails...ed/Default.aspx

TV presenter gets death sentence for 'sorcery' (Saudi Arabia)
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/03/19/...arabia.sorcery/

Rumors of sorcery at an Indonesian university (Indonesia)
http://www.jstor.org/pss/20062742

Graveyard sorcery? (Malaysia)
http://www.malaysianmirror.com/homedetail/45/31120

Understanding Witchcraft and Sorcery in Southeast Asia
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Understan...e/9780824815158


Why does this idea seem VERY popular?????

only one anwser, NO

If such things exist then we wouldnt need to hire professional killers to kill a figure because we can kill them remotely.

Hard to say because we havent seen it, and most of them who has seen it arent credible because their wackoo,uneducated, delusional and the list goes on.

This post has been edited by ate: Apr 1 2010, 12:16 PM

It is ironic that people do not believe in sorcery today but can accept telepath, clairvoyance, psychic, and David Copperfield. If these people had lived in those times would they not be branded as a witch?

definitely NO....

David Copperfield is a magician, magic trick is nothing supernatural. it is just misdirection of your eye.

Back in the times when witches were at large misdirection of the eye would be deemed as witchcraft, Robert.

of course, it is all bullshit that they can summon supernatural power.

Well Robert, if you had those abilities back in the times that scientific knowledge was zero, you would throw in some mumble jumbo or hocus pocus to stand out in the crowd.

How about your beilef in clairvoyance, Robert. There is a good deal of people who can predict the future with some accuracy but they can see the future all the time. So they played it up. Seeming going in to trance ... But we dont call them witch craft. Some are called gypsies. In other societies shaman, bomoh, medium. Yet some who dont do mumbo jumbo scientiest just call them claivoyance.

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Added on April 1, 2010, 4:20 pmopps some correction in Full Cap

There is a good deal of people who can predict the future with some accuracy but they CAN'T see the future all the time. So they played it up. Seeming going in to trance ...

This post has been edited by faceless: Apr 1 2010, 04:20 PM

people that predict future made tons of prediction, some of them are correct by chance so they use it to prove that their can predict the future, all those failed prediction will not be mentioned again.

claivoyance have never been proven, there are million dollar offer for anyone can demonstrate a single reproducible psychic event, after 30 years no a single person have been able to claim that money.

This post has been edited by robertngo: Apr 1 2010, 04:45 PM

What is your nationality, by the way, Miss Apples?

If sorcery really work, why dont we see more of it? Instead of fixing football matches, why dont punters just resort to sorcery to influence the results they want and win lots of money that way. Or maybe its already happening just that we dont realise it?

Why bother with scientific explanation when practical explanations cant even be answered.

This post has been edited by teongpeng: Apr 2 2010, 12:00 AM

I couldn't have agree more. This is a nice piece of rebuttal.

People who comes up with many wrong prediction are just make educated guess. There are many analyst making hundreds of prediction on the economy. Robert would you consider Nostradamus to have prediction abilities?

no one could understand what Nostradamus is talking about in his book when it published, then people started to read into the book and come up with prediction for stuff that already happened, then the legend start growing on Nostradamus ability, but no one have predict any future event with Nostradamus's book.

If you make a general prediction, then wait for it to happen, it will happen. It's mix the words and match the event, generally you can find a pretty good match. In fact the prophecy will happen many times over, in the hands of believers, that proves their favorite deity.

It is VERY popular because it is of the unknown. What irritates me the most is that people swallow such claims so easily at such speed without investigating on the claims. Meh, people.

very well said...

In Penang there is an infamous self proclaimed ghost king that will do anything for money even killing using sorcery. Rumour that the police also dun dare to kacau him.

I offer one last resistance to this Robert. It would be a situation in which we can argue till we are blue to the face and we will still hold on to our own views. Hindsight is always 20-20. Foresight is always blurred.

NO.

Not in 21st century!

i believe in science,nanotech and physics

one simple question : dare you take the risk to mess with these sorcerers when chanced upon one?

Why mess with them when you can make friends

That's not my question.

So much for all these rejection of sorcery and bullocks. If yall dont believe, why fear?

in rpg world i really trust tis kind of stuff.. but in real world i still doubt since there too many story bout it

intentionally mess with them? no, cos generally im a pacifist.

What is this gonna do with science?

hypnotism is not related with sorcery right? so the final answer is still no.

personally I don't believe it, I can only believe if somebody really show it in front of me and explain how he/she do it. Unfortunately no human able to do that until now.

Do you think they'd demonstrate to the media? Or show you for free?

saya kebal santau. cubalah kalau berani.

whats kebal santau?

buffalo from Santau?

If all these bomoh so powerful, why they can't prevent the British from taking over Malaya? Tok Janggut was probably a bomoh and had many bomoh friends, right? And same for the others. During that period, I think there were more santau practitioners in Malaya than today.

In that day, not many sorcerer or practitioner of supernatural power.This is because the source of this supernatural power is from GOD and the easy way is from devil.Tok Janggut power is gift by Allah that is called Karamah because he did all the Wajib things to do in islam and more additional thing called Sunah and zikir.Do you think that many people like to do that?even in Tok Janggut Days?The answer is No right?Even though you do all the wajib n sunah things that doesnt mean you can get the Karamah. Coz it is gift from the GOD for who he want.

But the other sources is the devil.Santau is the devil art or black magic..They use glass powder,and other bad stuff to send to the person that you mean it to.Why bomoh cant santau the british army?it is becoz santau or other black magic stuff is using devil.They need to communicate to the devil who is the person they want to kill.In that day they dont have the picture of the british army or their name.How the bomoh can kill them when the devil dont know who they want to kill.Like pro killer,if you dont provide them the information of the people they cant kill also.

So you see santau is easy way to kill people becoz you cant see what the devil do rite.This is how its work.The glass powder and the other bad stuff is made by the bomoh.How can it be sent to the people that he bomoh want to kill?The devil cant be seen rite?the item is brought by the devil to the person food but no one can see the devil.The bad stuff is also invisible when the devil brought them.The person eat the glass and died la.So dont give your fullname with your mother name or picture to somebody else.Many things can be done from that

That does not explain why the British Residents can be so happy and healthy, and nothing happen to them at all. They are all open target. And during the 19th century, there were no TVs and distractions like today, so I would assume their sorcery should be more powerful, and more widely practised. I'm sure all the Sultans who didn't like the British can employ many bomohs.

Like JWW Birch, in the end, it was easier to kill him the old fashioned way...??!

like i said before.Its art of the devil.Do you love working with devil.If you want to use devil,you must return the favour.You cant use devil for free.Its an open target is rite but do you know their names?If you know the way to do it,Im sure you dont want to be the bomoh.It against the religion.

name was given - JWW birch...what else do you need?a magical stick?

This post has been edited by CleverDick: Apr 20 2010, 11:42 AM

His mother name?you got ar?Datok Maharajalela is the black magic person?Nope rite.JWW Birch has been known after he was killed not before it.

I think the Sultan knew....lah.

Datuk Maharajalela is only the orang suruhan. The Sultan can get his pictar and anything else from JWW Birch, should be no prob.

Try to understand the reasoning. Why not kill him with santau rather than kill him in the open and then kena buang to Seychelles?

Haha..you think sultan is friendly with him la..or suddenly sultan ask what is your mother fullname...haha..like i said that santau is against the religion.If sultan orders the bomoh to do the santau.He also committed a sin.If you know someone is practitioner of black magic.do you want to be with them?its against the religion and malay ethics.YOU are WORSHIPING devil if you use santau.

So we are expected to believe the Sultan and all his macha are God fearing people, back in those days? But if you murdered him in the end (and that is what happened), it is also the same thing - murder. Murder is against God's will, correct? So God will still be angry.

I don't believe that back in those days, they didn't practice a lot of black magic. Because today, it is still going on, especially in rural areas. So last time when most of Malaya is covered by jungle and kampung, no electricity...use candle only, it should be a lot more.

Of coz la. Coz sultan is leader of the Islamic religion. even though killing is a sin but if you worship devil is sin that Allah will not forgive. After islam came to malaysia. Black magic is not practice anymore coz if you see the people that using black magic it is scary when you see them facing death.In rural is dayak is the practitioner not islamic person

Ok la. As you say. But you should watch Misteri Nusantara, where it shows a lot of black magic is still going on in Malaysia, and Indonesia, btw NOT Sarawak.....

For me, it is the strength of your mind and your beliefs. So, sorcery only works IF you believe in it. If black magic is used against someone who absolutely does not believe any of this and has an alternate belief system of his or her own, it will not work even if you chant whole day and whole night. If that person is "weak" and does not have strong belief in something, than maybe.....

Same principle in hypnotism. Bottom line is the beliefs that are entrenched in the subconscious mind, are very powerful. So watch what you believe and do not be easily influenced by external elements. Nowadays people are very easily influenced by what they see and hear.

This post has been edited by Xepz: Apr 20 2010, 01:18 PM

With the availability of today's technology, it should be easy to videotape 'proof' of sorcery, right? Is there anything about this at YouTube for example?

haha we a are at 21st century... nothing to worry about ghost... im afraid about what will happen when we reach 2012....

does sorcery includes those like voodoo or blackmagic from thailand? If yes then i need to change my vote from "no" to "not sure".

haha..damnla if sarawak not included...many place in sarawak n sabah is the sorcerer..ask tok batin if he is not practically black magic.If u dont believe sorcery it still can make you sick.Becoz the devil still can do you.For example,you take devil as invisible man,it can punch rite onto ur face.But nothing can be seen.Its the devil art.You cant tape it,becoz it cannot be seen.I give u reality example.Santau.The symptom of santau is u will cough blood same symptom as TIBI. If you had santau and go to the doctor,the doc will said that your lungs is ok.No infection same goes to other doctor.But why you had blood in ur cough?This is happen to my uncle.He is same as u.Dont believe in sorcery.How can u explain things like that.My cousin.She is pregnant until 9 month.until the day she want to deliver her baby,her stomach change to normal and no baby.explain to me why?hypnotis or mistrust to devil

better not mess with these things..yall have no idea what yall dealing with. Stuff as powerful as these, if it's not the gods, its definitely the devils.

why does things that is un-explainable have to be related to either god or devil?

Can't it just be something we yet to understand and that it is on it's own? Can't sorcery be just sorcery? Why does it have to be devil punching you? Can't it be like some ethereal energy or some summoned creature spirit? Again, spirit that doesn't have anything to do with god or devil.

This post has been edited by abubin: Apr 21 2010, 05:59 PM

i believe in physics,technology and sorcery.I do say,yes they exist.

Once i didn't beleive em,but once "kena" you cant deny it.

This is going to sound like Anthony Robbins, but.....sorcery is low level stuff for people who are not in control of their destiny, and do not want to take charge of it either.... I believe it exists, but with conditions.....Anyone can rise above it easily.

I wonder why all the voodoo in the world can't protect Haiti from receiving one of the worst earthquakes in history. So much for digging up graves....now they have an oversupply of corpses to make potions.

This post has been edited by Xepz: Apr 21 2010, 06:21 PM

These are beyond the understanding of those who don't practice it. It's not as simple as you think. Just because we ain't seen enough of the world doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I agree with you. not everything can be explain through physics n sciences.Thats why we have religion.XEPS, If you dare,try ask tok batin to black magic you for one hour.haha..

I didn't say this thing isn't real. Read my post again. I said - With conditions. This kind of thing can only work with certain conditions met. It only affects those who have weak minds. Unfortunately, many have weak minds.

It's like ghosts.... Some people can be affected by ghosts. Others no. Some can see ghosts. Others no.

Some claim that even the ghosts can attack them. Others, the ghosts cannot even lay a finger on them. In fact, the ghosts run away!

People with a strong belief in God, cannot be harmed at all by any kind of black magic, voodoo or any such nonsense.

Something for you to think about. WHY do all these countries where belief in black magic is strong, why are they always so poor and always hit by disasters? Why are they so backward and hopeless? All their sorcery gets them nowhere but then again, they never learn do they?....

There is a sound reason why all religions prohibit people from practicing sorcery.

This post has been edited by Xepz: Apr 21 2010, 11:34 PM

i believe cos i play dota ... use magic can frost bite .. or doom ppl .

Well, there's some truth to what you said about strong minds, but i've heard of cases where pastors are overpowered by sorcery.

Erm im assuming you're talking about Thailand? Are they always hit by disasters? Or are do you have other countries in mind?

Well, I've heard of cases where mediums (or bomohs) start screaming in fear when they are brought near some pastor. And they really start acting like demon possessed....That should be worth looking into from a scientific standpoint.

Maybe a case of - Stronger faith?

Let's see...Indonesia, Haiti, the African continent.... endless poverty, disasters, misery, tsunami, earthquakes, what not...Sorcery is very established in these regions.

I'm curious about the British Empire, how it advances to colonize the largest empire in the world....well most of these countries are backward people who coincidentally or not, believe a lot in sorcery/black magic.

Maybe science is a more "powerful" form of "sorcery" then...

PS: The richest individual person in the world is the Queen of England, not Bill Gates. Estimated wealth - 20-30 trillion dollars, at least.

This post has been edited by Xepz: Apr 22 2010, 12:01 AM

Crap...all these a nonsense that have never been proven and they are subjective like hell like all religions.

Define weak minds. How do you measure power of a mind?
Define STRONG belief in God. How do you measure faith in god?

I believe when a person is obsessed with religion, he/she will more likely to be fallen into some sorcery because of his/her strong believe. This believe leads to how he perceive sorcery and how he will react when HE KNOWS bad sorcery is applied on him. He will go crazy and so on due to the manifestation of his own believe.

Sorcery does not neccessary means it is evil. Why can't sorcery be something like a gun? Good or bad lies in the hand of the beholder. Why does religion have to be involved with sorcery? Why can't sorcery be just like some sort of power that have nothing to do with god or religion? Only god can have un-explained power, is it? The rest is evil doing.

1 word, "competition"

for this logic, poverty can also be like with religion, as the most religious country is usually also poor.

If there was a scientific explanation to all this, it wouldn't be sorcery anymore. And people wouldn't be afraid of the supernatural anymore. All the fear is there only because we can't explain it.

I'm getting increasingly impatient

I totally disagree, if something is really happen and can be repeatly done, then it can be research to find out conclusion. There are many things that science cannot explain but science can show you how to do it and repeat it.


else .. it's just a legend.

Yes. If sorcery really happens repeatedly, where is it? Any documentary evidence??

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Added on April 22, 2010, 5:47 pmI've heard about karamas dozens of times, but never really seen any evidence of it. It seems that all of this is merely anecdotal and folklore stories passed on generation by generation without anyone actually seeing anything in reality.

If not, is there any documented evidence?

Suspicious

This post has been edited by Sara Apples: Apr 22 2010, 05:47 PM

Why dont u find out for yourself...ask anyone if they know a bomoh or sumthing...and u go ask in person?
And yeah, report back your findings.

I believe it exists, but its strength only to a certain extent. If sorcery were so easily manipulated and done, then a lot of famous figures or leaders (like George Bush) would be in super deep sorcery shit right now.

This post has been edited by teh tarik satu: Apr 22 2010, 07:19 PM

Is it that difficult to find online?

Makes me even more suspicious.

Anything not answered by science they will called it superstitions.

Well, at least we need proof that it EXISTS!

if science cant prove then they say it is superstitious? dun u think?

Do you mean prove that this thing exists or not? Or explain it?

I think that - with all these stories about famous sorcerers and their power - if science still cannot prove that sorcery even EXISTS, I'd be cautious. Don't you agree?

are u scared to go see a live one?

There are things that science is still too raw or not advance enough to justify.
If one person can use his brain 1% more than normal people, its is already considered genius / savant. Imagine those with a lot more. I believe such supernatural thing exist but not in a way that we want to make believe like we seen in those hollywood movies. Can you explain Qi ?

I just wonder people of israel say their solomon king has power to control everything. How he can connect to the 'other world'

what is Qi?

It would make sense to start with the available online proof. Right? And please don't go off topic.

How do u suppose them to perform online?? Snuff film?

Lol~ convincing comment from all..

IMO i think that socery today is js an way for ppl to make a quick buck. like fortune tellers, bomohs who cure sicknesses and etc.

and for the disaster struck countries, i believe it happens not becoz they practice black magic, but because they have sinned so much that it happens.. mass prostitution, killing of lifes and etc..

Documentry. If many experts from different sources investigate the subject and come up with the same conclusions, then we can be more confident with the results.

Surprisingly, until now there seems nothing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II#Finances

Get your facts right before posting else your posts aren't credible.

If I may put in intelligible meaning, sorcery doesn't exist except in our imagination, fantasy and illusion. There's a part in our brain that controlled the intensity of hallucination by an individual. Almost all people who believe in sorcery are superstitious, such relationship between both are worth scrutinized meticulously.

LOL. Love it when you guys use Wikipedia....

Look, that's just the official version.

Ok then, here are some super rich people - from your Wikipedia (as well)....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family

enough said...

I don't understand what you are trying to say. What's your point?

I this is indeed true i.e if he is that powerful, then he would not need money cause he could materialise things supernaturally. He need not use money and can live outside the economic system. Imagine if you could get a "ghost" to do you bidding for you, would you charge people for the service ? why not get things for yourself.

Talk about "Proof of the demon" (recently learn from umineko no naku koro ni)

If u wan to prove that demon is exist, all u need to do is bring a demon out let it/him stand beside u, thats the perfect proof
Otherwise, whatever talk or theory about the existence of it is furtile, whether u talk about it in a long article or a book as thick as a bible

Thank goodness for sorcery. Where would we be without Hogwarts and Harry Potter?

Excuse me, for I wish to politely interject with an ambiguous phrase that would ultimately lead you to stop and ponder upon my words for a moment-


"He who sees with his eyes is blind"

- Socrates

The way you guys put sorcery like its some sort of child's play. Any idea how much work is needed to be executed before one can make sorcery work upon a target?

any actual proof that sorcery really works?

heard it. seen it. nuff said. certain divine interventions are not meant to be publicly/freely demonstrated/experimented

This is the very reason that makes me suspicious.

And by the way, aren't those 'sorcerers' going to make huge money out of it?

IMHO ~ unknown science discovery is sorcery..

this is what we call "bomoh"

I used to anti-ghost or whatever related to these things and challenge 'them', anything cannot be explained thru science is bollocks.

For all I know, yes

Usually it will work if given the correct details of one's birthdate and time.

You seem very sure. Did you have a personal experience? If yes, please describe it. If no, how are you so sure?