If the past achievements are considered as sunk cost, then why need brain gain? Better still, forget the past extraordinary experience, and also resume, right? Those achievements are not much valued in Malaysia, right?

Yes, there is no need to promote brain gain, the government and universities should fork out money themselves to groom its own PhD holders right?

Millions and billions of dollars have been invested, yet, I could hardly see any extraordinary research outcomes, is it right?

What lame excuses you have there

This post has been edited by PhDExpert: Feb 28 2010, 05:31 PM

I gave no excuses. I was merely depicting the way people think, especially when they are in groups.

No wonder Malaysia fails! This is definitely NOT the way in most developed country.

To be honest, with high quality publications, one could easily get a position at overseas. The problem is, in Malaysia, they don't even rank the conferences and journals! This is the MAJOR reason why we feel we are NOT appreciated as much as we do at overseas in Malaysia. With the kind of mentality that you have just depicted, you have really added salt to injury.

This post has been edited by PhDExpert: Feb 28 2010, 05:46 PM

Are you trying to find a job or are you here to lament the country's backwardness? You have to pick your priority man.

So, you mean if I want a job in Malaysia, I should never lament the country, but accept any form of discrimination and backwardness?

Look, what's your objective of working in Malaysia?

If you think this country is shortchanging you, you have 3 options
a) Leave, like most gutless ppl do.
b) Stay and attempt to make a difference.
c) Stay, but keep complaining without doing anything, and live most of ur life unhappy.

(edit, i added a 3rd option)

This post has been edited by ThanatosSwiftfire: Feb 28 2010, 05:48 PM

Yes. And take it up the ass and always swallow.

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Added on February 28, 2010, 5:51 pmI thought you wanted a lecturing position with good merit-based upward mobility at an excellent pay?

But now you seem intent on condemning the very people who are supposed to provide you with the above? They are not compatible goals, you know.

This post has been edited by kotmj: Feb 28 2010, 05:51 PM

a) Who is gutless? Malaysia or the developed countries? I demanded nothing more than the recognition that I enjoy at overseas.

b) I had mentioned about the Poisson process.

c) I don't live an unhappy life

Of course few people here appreciate quality, we're a long way from being a developed country. Your ranting on the internet about captain obvious things will not change them. That said, it's a free market. You are not being forced to work in Malaysia. If you believe you are better off elsewhere, you should do that. If you think you can do something about the problem, then do something about it.

We haven't seen any of your work so we can't tell how good you really are, despite your many claims. That doesn't help your case at all.

I have to agree with kotmj here.

This post has been edited by epic.engineer: Feb 28 2010, 06:04 PM

Malaysians have got used to swallowing the bitter pills? Nah... I'm not condemning here, but I understand you might have been enduring the plight

Do I appear condemning? What I have mentioned are normal practices in developed countries who appreciate human capital most. Is it too much for Malaysia to know the truth and have a sensible say on how to deal with it? Or should I say far be it for Malaysia to take up the normal practices in developed countries?

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Added on February 28, 2010, 6:02 pm1. The brain gain program is NOT in line with free market because of the extra perks and benefits.

2. Education is NOT a free market. It's a social sector that needs regular improvement from various bodies.

Sorry, I do not agree with your points.


This post has been edited by PhDExpert: Feb 28 2010, 06:02 PM

my dear PHDExpert,

it's true that everyone deserve to be paid based on what they can give back. but malaysia cant pay what u deserve simply because we lack the economic backing. IPTAs rely heavily on government funding to function while IPTS rely heavily on the students.

almost none of the universities are capable of sustaining themselves purely via academic research, despite having some of the leading experts in the world. we are here at IPTAs because we can contribute back to the country so that one day, whenever that will be, malaysia will be capable of paying PhD holders like u with equal salary as the developed countries. if u wanna join now, well, u gotta work hard just like the rest of us.

yes, it's a brain leak. but there are other things that the government has to maintain while we pull ourselves together.

Well, so if Malaysia REFUSES to give u that recognition, then what?


There's PRIVATE education, and PUBLIC education for a reason. PRIVATE education is motivated by profits, and that IS a free market.
Public education needs regular improvement, yes, I agree with you, but the point is, WHAT CAN YOU DO ABOUT IT? If' you're unhappy about it, why don't you be a politician?

PhDexpert, maybe you can tell us how the recruitment process for a lecturer looks like.

This must be one of the most amusing threads I've ever read....

PhdExpert, with all due respect to your qualifications and recognitions, bla bla bla... there are few things you have to remember, and remember them well you must in chasing your dream ;

1. This is Malaysia, not some other developed countries like you always mentioned previously. In fact, people could say you are contradicting yourself when you keep comparing those ivy leagues, conferences and what not, WITH what malaysian institutions had managed to offer as far. So, how can local institutions could compare with those ivy leagues in terms of salary/recognition/remuneration???

2. Based on your qualifications, you are smart... but I would say you have to be a bit more street smart, ie understanding the local market environment, understanding what your prospective employers are looking in you, and how you can match the expectations with your profile.. You may know A to Z, but what if you employer wants you to do A, and only willing to pay you to do A?

3. Nobody's here is telling you that you are wrong is seeking equal recognition on par with the qualification. They are all just saying that it might be a dream too far . Except for select few industries and some Fortune 100/500 MNC, everybody else has to swallow a bitter pill throughout their working career in malaysia. Ever wonder why is there so much publicity about brain drain in malaysia? Why people still leaving, working and taking residence somewhere else, if malaysia really value the human capital? People in malaysia are at a cross road, move out for better pay and lifestyle, or stay back due to family commitment, etc, etc.

4. Refer to point 2. There's a small matter of organization/office politic that you have to tread as well in almost everywhere in malaysia..

Neway, good luck.. remember, dont just be book smart, be street smart as well. It's valuable ingredient for survival..

PhdExpert seems to be overrun. I think he wont be visiting this thread again. Just in case he does, i have a neutral comment for him

Please stop comparing overseas with malaysia. We are not overseas. I already said it is not fair to compare between us and other country. You keep saying that you have gold medal and whatever stuff and seems to be very proud of that. I respect you for being able to achieve that as I know that it is not something anyone can achieve. If you have the confidence, do contribute to our country by being the person who will bring Malaysia to the so called top tier conferences. If everybody starts to compare and go overseas, malaysia will not stand a chance to advance. SOmebody has to initiate the process for better future

My 1 sen

Hey guys, I understand that in IPTA without a masters i could not be a lecturer. Hence in my case, I should join IPTS first, get some experience and get a phd and then join IPTA. Is this a good decision?? btw, i am doing my ACCA currently and still have 3 papers pending. Would taking up a professional qualification helps as a lecturer??

Also I have read a lot of threads in this forum that said there is no discrimination or quota of whatsoever in the hiring on lecturers and promotion. Hoever i just came across a very disturbing article and would like to share it here. Please give me some feedback. thanks a lot.

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Why Public Malaysian Universities will Never Improve

by ex-researcher

I used to work in a Malaysian university holding a professorial post on contract. I could not be confirmed because I do not have a SPM (more later). I worked in research dealing with stem cells but left after 3 years despite the offer of renewal for another 2 years. I am a Malaysian Chinese who spent nearly 20 years overseas in some of the big name universities in Australia and the UK.

After observing the system from the inside I can tell you that Malaysian universities will never improve, and whatever improvement you see will not last. I will set out my reasons in a concise manner.

1) Staff are not hire on merit

I’ve noticed that most the new staff hired are Malays. There are very few Chinese and Indian staff on tenure track. Infact most of the non-Malays I came across are hired on contract. It does not take a genius to know that if you don’t put people on tenure, they will not give their best.

One day I asked a DVC in private why there are so few non-Malay staff on tenure. I was surprised when he told me directly that there was an unofficial quota. He further told me that there is a lot of resistance from the junior Malay staff when non-Malays come in because they perceived the non-Malays are better researchers and academics. He also told me that good non-Malay staff go overseas, especially to Singapore so they do not want to waste their time in hiring non-Malay staff. I do not if this is true.

2) No research culture since promotion is not based on research

Despite all the talk by the Minister, there is no research culture. Infact, most local academics are not interested in research. A few of the Malay academics told me straight in the face that they like group or cluster research because it is “easier”. They don’t go for excellence or individual research. They also tell me that promotion is based on administrative work and “cables” to the Minister or VC. In fact a few of them tell me that good researchers are punished by the whole group because they make the others look bad or lazy. Thus no matter how good you are when you join, by putting you in a “research group” they are slowing the good ones down and before you know it, they become part of the group culture.

In the university where I was working, the VC or DVC did not published a single paper in an international referred journal. Except for one DVC, the VC and the other DVC do not even have a single book. The DVC with a book is a textbook in Malay and when I looked at it, I realized that it was mainly translation he passed off as his own work. Two of the DVC were active with UMNO and the VC is a relative of an UMNO strongman. Thus the “cable” theory appears to be true.

A retired Malay professor told me the most important criteria for promotion is “how you get along with people”. He also told me if you are good, they will bring you down because if the universities have standards, then they cannot survive in their jobs. In his own words, more than 4/5 of the current university staff will never be able to get academic jobs in a real university.

3) Pettiness and Jealously

The Malay culture is based in group behaviour and gossip and during my time there, I noticed that even academic staff took a lot of time in gossiping about nonsense. Most of the female academic staff used gossip to bring down capable people. For example, one Malay guy who just came back with his PhD had to endure a lot of gossip, all because one female academic staff complained that he did not hold a kenduri to celebrate his successful completion of PhD.

Another time, all the academic staff, including the Dean, ganged up against me because I had managed to published a paper in a leading international journal. Immediately after my name was mentioned by the VC as an example, the Dean started telling other academic staff that I did not “contribute enough” to the faculty.

I was under the impression that I was there to do research and publish but for these people, who cannot do research, the priority was on social events. This Dean was not even an academic in the first place but was a civil servant before he was appointed Dean. All the academics he has appointed since he became Dean all come from his state and all are local graduates. So how to improve?

There are many more things I want to say but these are the main reasons why Malaysian universities have no hope of ever being world class. As long as everything is based on race, pettiness and not on merit, I cannot see a way out.

I am writing this not out of frustration ( I am now overseas) but to also show why local universities waste so much money joining the Geneva Exhibitions and the like (as reported in the newspapers). The sad truth is when you have people who cannot publish in real academic journals, then they play silly games like join exhibitions.

The USM DVC who defended this practice would be laughed at if he was at a real university. In fact, to be frank, people like him cannot get a real academic job in Singapore, NZ or US. He is a symbol of what is wrong at local universities.

In sum, you have the blind leading the blind.

This post has been edited by pinkdevil88: Mar 1 2010, 12:17 AM

actually, u need a PhD to secure a lecturer post in an IPTA. meaning even if u have a masters, it wont make a difference. whether u join IPTS or IPTA is totally up to u. but if u intend to join IPTA eventually, ur best bet is go straight to IPTA. the main reason is seniority.

and yes, professional qualifications help.


a lot of what being said boils down to office politics. all the talk about who-knows-who, connections, jealousy etc are all common in ANY institutions. i've personally been in such situations. i can say that although it can be quite depressing, remember that two can play that game. just let ur abilities and achievements do the talking.

universities like UTM (where i am) adheres strictly to the ISO practices. there is a lot of clause that u can quote when it comes to acceptable practice. meaning, if u believe that u are being discriminated, all u need to do is do a bit of reading and just pluck clauses from the ISO during ur next meeting. people will cower as if it was bible truth in the dark ages.

there are always people who avoid office politics. i'm one of them. but i avoid because i dont like it, not because i can't play it. stand ur grounds and know ur rights. u'll be a force to be reckoned with. and remember, if u're being ganged up by anyone, there's always people above them that u can gang with .

finally, about the discrimination of non-malays during intake, i cant say it didnt exist. but like i said, there are rules that u can use to get around them. if u're being discriminated, KNOW YOUR RIGHTS. i've heard about the unspoken quota. i havent encountered it myself, as my faculty especially have quite a large number of non-malay staffs. but when it comes to getting non-malays to apply, it's true, most of them are offered contracts based on what is agreed during the interview.

most non-malays that applied prefer to keep their options open. contractual basis is the best in this case, before they finally decide to join permanently. but the number of applicants itself are very small to begin with. at my department, we had to go out and actually offer it to people bcoz no non-malays ever applied in the last 3 years. what to do?

Yes, i understood that from some of your previous post. that is the reason I choose IPTS first to become a lecturer. And will join IPTA later when i get my Phd.

Why do you say so?? Do you mean that the experience in IPTS will not count if I join IPTA later with a PhD and 3-4 years lecturing experience in IPTS??

Also could you please let me know how does the promotion in universities work?? How do the management evaluate performance?? feedback from students?? passing rate of the subjects? or number of publications you did?? Also can i know on average, how long does it take before a lecturer can get his professorship? Thanks a lot.

1. To be hired as a lecturer, one must have a PhD.

2. To be promoted to a senior lecturer, one must have a string of high quality publications. Low quality publications do NOT count. A lecturer must achieve sufficient amount of points for promotion. For instance, several countries have their own ranking though they are pretty much the same:

Singapore: Ranking in Singapore
Australia: Ranking in Australia

3. To be promoted to an Associate Professor, one must achieve certain amount of points in publications. In addition, one must have sufficient number of referees from well recognised institutions from Malaysia and Overseas. Any conflicts must be declared. This is another reason why universities at overseas are frantically looking for collaboration opportunities.

4. To be promoted to a Prof, similar procedure to point 3, but with more stringent rules.

At overseas, promotion is very much based on this system.

The Australia, NZ and Singapore use the system I mentioned.

In UK, publication citation from other universities count most.

In China, point system is based on points given by the international EI index

In Malaysia, what we have? A big NIL! So, there is NO transparency and our effort at overseas are NOT well appreciated to say the least.

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Added on March 1, 2010, 5:31 amMy main point is NOT salary. You misunderstood. I mentioned I could take the job at RM6,000-7,000, although an extra RM1,000 is fair and square. My main concern is:

1. Discrimination based on racial ground, as you have mentioned non-malays are hired under contract. Why the special treatment to Malays even in the hiring process. Promotion wise, it's even hopeless for non-Malays.
2. Lack of transparency in promotion, read my previous post. Where is the ranking and point system? Is it because the Head of Department or those in high position are of low quality that they never adopt the point system adopted by most institutions in the world?

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Added on March 1, 2010, 5:50 amAs I mentioned, everyone deserves due recognition in Malaysia. I do NOT need extra careful treatment, just hope there is enough transparency and recognition. To be transparent, there must be a good system like those applied in UK, Australia, NZ and China. Yet, I do NOT see such transparency in Malaysia.

Read my previous post. In China, academic position is very competitive as there is surplus of PhDs. They recruit through a point system, that's fair and square. Now you know why Beijing University and Tsing Hua University are ivy league. Am I asking too much for Malaysia to follow China?

Malaysia is competing with the rest of the world to become one of the top education hubs, adn to put some Unis in the ivy league. Did you mean the world should consider the local market environment before finalising the ivy league? Oh yeah, I remember a popular quote "Ini Malaysia" probably from a loser eh?

So, to work in Malaysia, one must swallow the bitter pills, whereas, to work in a developed country, one should just sit back and enjoy the sweet pleasures eh?

What do you mean by street smart? Is that to understand the Malaysian 'special' way? May be you admit that discrimination is wide spread in Malaysia, yet nothing is done, and so one has to be street smart, right? At overseas, they adopt point system backed with reference report in consideration of promotion, fair and square. In addition, all employees have to sign "Equal Opportunity" form in any application including research funding and promotion.

Are there Equal Opportunity in Malaysia? How does Malaysia compete in ivy league then?


This post has been edited by PhDExpert: Mar 1 2010, 05:50 AM

1. like i said, it was what the applicants agreed upon. it depends on the availability and what the candidate themselves want. if they applied for permanent post, they wont be offered a contract.

2. err... promotion IS based on meritocracy. if u have evidence that it is not, then i suggest taking it up to MACC. i'm sure they'll love a field trip to the universities. and i'm not being sarcastic here. help us weed out the dumbasses.

that aside, we do use point system. that's what they yearly review are for.