How can I correct you when, because you are not able to put forward your query in a way that I can understand, I don't even know what you are asking for?

It has nothing to do with grammar. It has nothing to with "coolness" (In fact, I am perfectly aware I am one of the least "cool" people, by any metric, to the world at large). It has nothing to do with "looking down" at anyone or anything. It has nothing to do with pride.

And mistakes are not a bad thing, as long as one learns from it. (How else do you think I pick up Mandarin?)

Unfortunately Limeuu, I don't think we're ever going to get an answer to that. Partially because these people don't even realise that their English is quite poor to begin with. (While I do not have the "privilege" of reading the reports of such class of persons, I have been the receiving end of native Australians who complain about Asians whom they cannot communicate with in group projects. I have a feeling I ended up receiving the brunt of their (understandable) frustrations because I'm (relatively) comprehensible)

Before anyone starts their shrill cries of "raicst", let me distill university life into 2 points:
1) Group projects are always hell, no matter what composition your group members are.
2) With (1) in mind, it doesn't help things when you have group members which are utterly incomprehensible.

That I suppose is the crux if my "rant", if you will: I am perfectly open and happy to admit my shortcomings in Malay and Mandarin, but why are those, who clearly have issues articulating their thoughts in English, launch personal attacks which are unrelated to my point, when I simply lay out the basic fact that their English is incomprehensible?

If I posted in the Chinese Cari forums, most people would know my grasp of Mandarin is, at best, stilted. I get patronising looks from the West Malaysians I interact with when I open my mouth to speak Malay, because the Malay I speak is "academic Malay", ie learnt in school, and sounds nothing like how the average person whom Malay is their mother tongue speaks.

So why, when I ask for clarification from someone who has issues putting forward their point in English, am compared to Nazi's, accused of "looking down", labeled "uncool", pride somehow is at stake, and personal attacks on person are launched left, right and center?

I understand that this is an English speaking forum and that, we are supposed to type in proper English in this thread as per the title. Sometimes I would feel reluctant to post anything in this thread because I know my English is going to be judged the minute it is posted and due to the lack of knowledge in some areas, I felt that I should have just shut up and watch other 'knowledgeable' people to answer the queries. But this would have defeated the purpose of a forum. We come here to share what we know, and sometimes what we know is incorrect. That's when people come in and correct us. We share our knowledge and improve ourselves. However, in my opinion, there are more proper ways of correcting people. I somehow feel for hihihehe as I read haya's reply. It felt as though he has been ridiculed for a mistake that he might not have realized. He could have accepted the fact that he did not put forward the query in a grammatically correct way if we would have corrected him in a better way. There wasn't a need for the 'rant' section.
I am not sure whether I have the stand to voice this out. I speak for people who might have quit posting in this thread because they are afraid of having to make mistakes and being ridiculed for that. We are all in a learning process. This reminds me of how I was afraid to ask questions when I was in Malaysia because some teachers would reply with something like 'are you stupid? Didn't you hear what I just said?'. Students just quit asking when they are given this kind of response and this has somehow hindered the learning process.
I am glad that I came out of this trauma after being exposed to the Australian way of teaching. The tutors and lecturers in the university are more than happy to take any question and even, encourage students to see them during consultation hours. This is just my point of view. No offense to haya or limeuu.

hmm, i am totally fine by pointing out my mistakes but the "pointing out" statement from him kinda like looking down on me..thats what i feel
so should i be happy if some1 pointing out my mistakes + looking down or sounds harsh? guess not..

i dont mind if u just reply "i dont understand your query,try again?"
but from the way i read and understand your post?sorry dude, that post not comfortable for me...

thats all...

p/s: my English really sucks compare with you guys but at least I still learning...and to be honest,I never type a proper English in Internet especially forum..can say as my "bad style"

This post has been edited by hihihehe: Aug 15 2010, 02:52 PM

You say your learning to improve your English but instead of trying to use proper English everywhere necessary you do not try and improve yourself by writing proper English be it Australian English or whatever when asking a for help? If you don't ask the right questions you will never get the right answers. Why aren't you typing proper English when using the Internet? Do you think it is inappropriate or irrelevant? The internet is among the best place to try and improve yourself without people knowing who you are.

You should use proper English wherever is necessary in order to improve your Language so that this kind of situation don't happen and in this context where it has been warned to use proper English when asking for help here it is totally necessary to use proper English.

like i said,it's my bad style/habit in Internet...even in email too...
to be exact, my lazyness..

regarding back to my question,i stated "a quick question" there..it's like i want a quick answer from my quick question without a proper statement/query..OR targeting some1 that don't really mind my wrong statement and try to understand it...

In the end, you still care about your "min-chi" (pride). If you got so much pride, how to learn? If you really feel uncomfortable or felt like people are looking down on you, it's because you care too much about your pride.

i seriously LOL-ed at your irrelevant post...
i don't know how u can think of the pride that i care too much..i mean i never think of my "min-chi" that you keep mentioning when i am posting here...why should i care?
if i really care,i won't ask a wrong query to "destroy" my pride...

or maybe you should understand more about pride...

and i think because of my fault lead this thread to off topic..

Then why are you so defensive? Everything you say now is to protect yourself from being embarrassed.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Aug 15 2010, 06:04 PM

furthermore, it is normal for me to feel uncomfortable or dislike when there is people looking down on me because it sounds offense to me..

if someone sounds offense towards you,i guess you will react the same thing too..

Not really. There are people who are smart enough to feel humble, and can still learn despite being criticized.

And you? Want to learn, but still want to save "face" (min-chi).

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Aug 15 2010, 06:07 PM

haha,funny...
looks like YOU are the one getting defensive and care about your pride...
you might be saying this to others but when you are the one who get into same situation,you will do the same thing..nuff said..

---

Added on August 15, 2010, 6:11 pmso don't try to pretend you are smart enough to judge people with irrelevant post...
my post got nothing to do at all with my pride..that's it...



This post has been edited by hihihehe: Aug 15 2010, 06:11 PM

Haha. Don't know what you're laughing about, except that you're the one getting criticized here be it for the language, or for your attempt to save yourself from embarrassment.

Haven't you met some really humble people in life who can still learn properly despite after being criticized?

It is rather harsh though, to receive some irrelevant prejudice to what we don't have. But I don't think there is ever a time a student will start learning seriously when the study is way too lenient, as if giving too much leeway to abuse of leniency to actually start learning.

Perhaps the ones who are afraid of being ridiculed should start getting a grip and toughen themselves up? How else will they actually find a place where criticism is impossible?

In short: The learning process, is really not an excuse to evade the harsh truth.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Aug 15 2010, 06:32 PM

really, please think back what have you post..

and you expect everyone will have a same principle(or whatever it called)?
i bet you are not 1 of them..
is there any problem if i feel uncomfortable with the post?come on, if i'm not satisfied with it,i will speak out..if i satisfied, i accept it..
that's it..

if you still insisting, no choice then...

i got no problem with you but at least please judge accurately...

And why are you not satisfied? Cannot accept that your integrity is lost because you got criticized for it?

And when you mentioned that you did not have the same principle as me, so you're admitting that because you do care about your "min-chi" more?

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Aug 15 2010, 06:37 PM

omg, are you blind or maybe ignorant fool?
if you don't bother read my post,then don't bother to reply...
from the beginning until now you still repeating..

ok,i admit everything that you said..happy with it?satisfy?
i can't help it if you still not happy..

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Added on August 15, 2010, 6:41 pm
just whatever you said...

This post has been edited by hihihehe: Aug 15 2010, 06:41 PM

I am following everything you said.

You said you can accept people who can pinpoint your mistakes, but you want people to do it nicer because you don't like people being HARSH to you, even though it isn't.

I am saying you FELT harsh because your pride, nothing less, nothing more, and you cared too much about it that you made a trivial issue as if it's damaging your self-esteem.

If you want respect, EARN it. Don't force other people to give you.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Aug 15 2010, 06:46 PM

that proved you are quite ignorant
there is no point to argue with you as you never bother to read back what have i said..or maybe my bad/poor English makes you not understandable/can't get it...i'm apologize for it...

I'll point it out.

What about this?

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Aug 15 2010, 06:52 PM

what about that?
sounds offensive TO ME and i react back to it..any wrong for my reaction as human being?
it may not sound offensive to you but it is for me..
and that's not even related to my pride at all...



This post has been edited by hihihehe: Aug 15 2010, 06:58 PM