1. Quoting back what u wrote

U can apply the same thing on ur case. In ur case, the limit that u have posed on urself is of ur own making, taking from ones persona, perhaps, a religious figure in ur religion.

2. The world is going to end. It is a premise where religion put its stock on faith, and expect submission.
A progressive deity would oversee a period of peace (within this world, not afterlife please) and advancement rather than a gloomy outlook on the future.
The signs that God gave is an encouragement for humans to do as the signs say. They will do more destruction regardless with or without knowing the date. So the prophecy of the end of the world is, useless.
Earthquakes, volcanic activities are not signs of the end of the world. The earth had endured more violent seismic activities, worldwide fire, flood, meteor bombardment, but the Earth is still here. The earth has a correcting mechanism which will correct itself. Restore the balance. Even the worst scenario of asteroid collision do not include the annihilation of the Earth. Just the living things on it. And thats the end of the life, not the world.

3. Killing the universe? How?
Science is not there to prove God. If God existed, the prove would be all around us already.

1. Science is responsible of u reading this very text thru a copper wire. And not to mention the mass production printing of ur Holy Book Koran.
Thats my claim and proof. What have God done to our surrounding all this time. Proof? be honest.

Words can be fooling if it is not expressed properly.
Well, I am not single out only non-believers, but both. Im asking a question in general. As to, what people gives their opinion based on.
Im not taking only scriptures (sorry for not mentioning it earlier), but any others form of information regarding that religion itself.
What I am trying to say here, how can one judge even without experience/understanding it? How can you judge religion as a whole when it is so diversified.

Im not saying, someone should have 100% understanding, but at the very least, understand what they are going to judge. It seems like many people tend to judge by just gathering information, and makes the opinion themselves, without understanding it first. Like what i mention, saying what the food taste, without tasting it.

But i do get your point. I think you tend judge religion as a whole. You judge by logics, from looking outward into inward. As for myself, i think one should judge from inward to outward. To step into their shoes, before making any judgement. It would not be bias free, but at the very least reduces it.
Thanks for your answers and your time.

What i do is simple. If religion does not deliver what it claim it can, eventhough with proper implementation - its a sign of a failure. And say what religion wants, it has failed.
That is a deduction from and observer, in a way i experience some of it. I do however have to understand the claim religion made and the results it supposed to give to deduce.

And why there must be two sides of the story? One thing. Because human just cannot be humble or think rationally.
Why we mere mortals must act like we know everything like we know "GOD" personally or even deny the existence of "GOD"?
Why must we question everything regarding something that may not or may exist? It (GOD) doesn't really involve our lives in fact.
We make the changes and we progress our civilization to a higher level.

We as mere mortal, sure, we can progress even without debating the non-existence or existence of GOD. Mind you again, that progress has been made with science by experimentation and usage of science (what we called technology) - both non believers and believers benefit from progress of technology. The issue here, why bother proving that something that cannot be prove or denied like "GOD". Science can literally take out this "GOD" debate. I just don't understand why some "atheismo" use science as tool to deny GOD existence, just like religulous people use faith to prove "GOD" existence. Can't we stop arguing and progress to something more useful?

BTW cancer can be cured at the right stage with the right treatment and this is called science, not faith. However, the debate about GOD has been longed since the existence of us, mere human mortal. Are we trying to play "GOD" ourselves by trying to put up proves that we created ourselves regarding this "GOD" phenomenon?

The real human condition is not "GOD". It's pride and the inability not to be humble, and it's killing humanity. Both non-believers and believers are just mere mortals who cannot understand their own nature and limit of thinking. "GOD" is delusional. Either you believe or do not believe it, you have been delusional in the first place by thinking of it. That goes to both atheismo and religulous people.

1. Try Masjid Negara, as to borrow the Quran, you might not be able to bring it away from the mosque due to ethic reason. you are not shoving away from religion, you are just being pure ignorance. You want education, being spoonfed into your mouth. You did not do research about religion, you just "hear" about them. and you been hearing wrong. be it Islam, Christianity, jew, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever kind of religion are there. You are not being convince, you just being pure ignorance. You are willing to study science but unwilling to study religion proved just that. Why am i able to do so but you can't?

2. In Islam, there are teaching called Qadq and Qadr. Which stated whatever happen in this world happen for a reason, and to never question the reason but to take it as an endurance from God. We can grieve over death, the "fury of mother nature" but we can't never question it and blame it. And i ask for your source not your reason. and you kept giving me reason, stated your source so i can overlook. neither of the three teaching (Islam, Christianity and Jew) that their prophet (Muhammad, jesus and Moses) stated the date of the end of the world and gave the "age" of the earth. in Islam, there are over 3000 human being "whisper by God", 724 of them is Prophet, and 25 of the Prophet gifted by god with their own testament. And Muhammad is the last prophet. Jesus and Moses is in the "25". and i ask you again, please stated your source of claim about end of time and the age of the earth so i may overlook, or unless you want to confirm me that you made the claim yourself and agree that you are being ignorant.

3. Time for some prove aye? how about biology?

Sura - 23 The Believers (Al-Mu'minun); verse 14
"Then we developed the drop (sperm) into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator."

Source of translation: http://www.submission.org/

Mind you that Quran was brought down to earth during the year 6xx A.D. Thats around 1400 years ago. Also, in the quran stated how the earth is moving in its own system and rotating by the sun. Muslim have two part of guidance they would follow, The Quran; in which is God Word to the human. and Hadith; in which is God Whisper to Prophet Muhammad, in which he preach and being "recorded" in wording form by trusted resources. being his best followers during those time.

how do you explain in science (since you are being all great about it) that a mere "religious book" are able to state about phases of Human reproduction so early in 6xx A.D. When during those time, human only know how to "fcuk" " kill their baby because its blasphemy" and "trade goat for a bunch of vegetables with no currency". Science is the reason and brought me near to God, you who preach otherwise never took the chance to study religion in its whole, how can you convince yourself God is there when you can't even convince yourself in faith? Science is not faith, its knowledge, God's knowledge and the verse is my prove... whats yours?

Q&A: You sir, are indeed being ignorance. Why human of the western world (since you look so fond of them) come back to eating "organic" food, when deemed that bio-engineered food are indeed superior? and readily available? Why, since science has been blooming all this time, there are more disease than there are cure? with more and more of them emerging every moment? This is what backfired upon us for being ignorant that not to try and step foot into "God's region" and try to play God. like i said, people can't question basic of basics not because they can't... but because God didn't let them to.



This post has been edited by Yue: Jan 8 2010, 09:39 AM

God cant be created bro. we cannot call him God if he was a creation.

The Big Bang Theory remain theory till now.

This post has been edited by kubing: Jan 8 2010, 09:04 AM

Yes it can. If u want to insert science into religion, u have to allow that possibility.

Theory is not mere guess or assumption. To get to the status 'Theory', one have to go through stringent scientific filter and also must include other support from existing science. A scientist cant just say something and label it a theory.

You believe the Koran mentioned the Big Bang to support ur beliefs, but to discredit Science, u say Big Bang is just a theory. Make up ur mind.

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Added on January 8, 2010, 12:15 pm

2. 'Fury of nature' is a poetic way to describe the balancing act of the Earth's climate mechanics. Earth doesnot share human prejudice towards other living being. Nor can it have humanly perks like revenge or retaliation.

3. Rig Veda predates Koran by 2000 years and contains much more science, including the beginnings of the Universe. Nothing in Koran is special. One verse in Koran is being described in paragraphs in Rig Veda.

That verse u quoted is a striking example how Koran gets Science totally wrong. What happens during embryonic period is not a creation process. Its reproduction. Embryonic stages are also described in details in the Rig Veda.

Apparently u havent gone outside ur religion to consider all sources yet. Theres alot more ancient wisdom that predates the Koran. Koran is far from being a miracle.


This post has been edited by maranello55: Jan 8 2010, 12:15 PM

2. poetic or not, i never disapprove the earth very own system of climatic control over seismic balance happen in the ring of fire across the pacific. I never deny science because there was me stating that science was God's Knowledge, but there are certain things in science that contradicting Religion, and those said things never end up as a fact... they stay as wavery theory up till now, unsolved and un-approved. but comes the next question, why there are more natural Disaster within these 15 years alone in comparison to 100 years before that? Why do earth so desperately trying to balance itself far too many times if it was just a mechanic? Its because the balance was way off that it went beyond "repair". Why do the balancing happen soo too many times if the earth itself wasn't showing to us human that it was about to gave up and end itself? science never be able to prove this but these were stated in the religion, be it Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

3. Your statement show naiveness my friend, never ever make such statement without proper evaluation and research. Its a translation of the Quran, as i were saying the whole Quran is a poem full of metaphor. It makes people question and wonder what it meant. A typo in the translation equate failure? so you wanted me to paste out the true writing of the Quran knowing you would understand nothing about it? good god you are weak. Lets retake Human reproduction alone, again. against Rig Veda said you; That wasn't the only verse in the Quran regarding Human Reproduction, they were scattered all over the Quran again to intrigue human very nature to wonder and question why is this thing keep popping out? so human could study and find out the truth.

Source of Translation: http://www.islam-guide.com/bqs/20human.htm

"O Man! Who deceives you about your Lord the Noble, Who created you and fashioned you in due proportion and gave you any form He willed."
"(God) fashioned you in (different) stages."
"(God) fashioned man from a small quantity (of sperm)."
"Was (man) not a small quantity of sperm which has been poured out?"
"Then We placed (man) as a small quantity (of sperm) in a safe lodging firmly established."
"(God) made his progeny from the quintessence of a despised liquid."
"We cause whom We (God is speaking) will to rest in the womb for an appointed term."
"We have fashioned you from . . . something which clings."
"We have fashioned the small quantity (of sperm) into something which clings."
"Was (man) not a small quantity of sperm which has been poured out? After that he was something which clings; then God fashioned him in due proportion."
"We fashioned the thing which clings into a chewed lump of flesh and We fashioned the chewed flesh into bones and We clothed the bones with intact flesh."
"(God) fashions you inside the bodies of your mothers, formation after formation, in three (veils of) darkness."

That was some of the verse stated in Quran about Human Reproduction, like i stated "some" since you like to take advantages of things so small questioning em without reasoning, and if you question a mere translation? i ask you to search for others, as translation are vague from human to human.

I have been providing verse from the Quran, now its your turn to post the "paragraph" of Rig Veda, i won't take google for an answer. And do bear in mind that Muslim's prophet Muhammad is illiterate, he couldn't even read his whole life and never was educated, and all of the sudden after "bertapa" in a cave he is preaching God's word. Thats enough for miracles.

edited: extra information and some typo

This post has been edited by Yue: Jan 8 2010, 03:30 PM

2. Simple. Because we build on land far more than the last 100 years. And the population is way more. So a natural disaster of the same magnitude 100 years ago will have much worse impact if it happens today.

The earth will not just give up balancing. The more it go off balance, the more it will try to balance itself again. Until everything is back in balance. It will not end. Human civilizations will. Religion stock on that for submission.
Earth mechanics has been studied and its due to human industrial by-products. Earth balancing acts reoccuring time to time is as signal for us to look into our own wrongdoings to the environment, not as a signal that the world is gonna end.

3. 'Creation' to 'Reproduction' is not a typo. Its wrong hypothesis. And its not 'small' either. Theres big difference between 'creation' and 'reproduction', scientifically. In Koran it says 'creation' to support its own notion of a creator. While it is just an act of reproduction of a species, not only human. If Koran wants to be recognised as a book of science, it needs to be more specific.

U can provide all the verse of 'reproduction' in Koran, but the fact remains that RigVeda predates Koran. It cancel out the claim that Koran is the first to claim these scientific finds and took a status of a miracle.

I wont paste any Rig Veda verse here since u do not except Google as an answer. U adviced others to do some researche before claiming anything, why dont u do it.

Mohammed didnt have to be literate to tell others to write what he says. Someone obviously taught him something back in the cave no doubt. I go to school illiterate knowing nothing and got out knowing lots of things.....miracle indeed.

Simple explainable events in religion blown out of proportion to a different level while it is actually very simple.

quite a leap to equate "drop" as "sperm" and "hanging" as "embryo" as well as other terms. barring that, the bone does not form before flesh. flesh to rot before bones, so mayhaps some creative guy just go, hmm... rotting is opposite of forming, so maybe the events goes in reverse too.

genetically engineered food is not fully proven to be superior or safe. and people are often scared of new things. and speaking of bio engineered, does seedless grape and watermelon count? cause those are very popular

and scientist is very much keen to "play god" with stem cell research and cloning etc, if not for many religion roadblocks.

has disease become more prevalent? or have we eliminated the low hanging disease and the more complicated ones that are harder to cure cropping up? hard to suffer cancer at are of 60 when your average expectancy is 30 and major cause of death is cholera.

Well, each to their own. But since there are so many different religions, it'd be difficult to start from the "inside" wouldn't it? I prefer looking at it as a whole before going into the specifics. At this stage, I have pretty good idea of the general picture, which is why it is time to look into the different religions. However, religions somehow involve a supernatural being, that can't be denied. And based on that alone it doesn't appeal to me, though I'm not always against it. Because, so far, I have not faced a question that cannot be answered without a supernatural being. Or at the very least, does not have just as good a theory to explain it that does not involve a supernatural being.

And I do not agree on needing to be a believer before being able to understand the religion. Because if so, then people will be converting to religion prematurely. Usually, it's understand first, then convert. Or so I think it is.

You completely missed the point. I am not here to prove or disprove God's existence. That would be playing God. Understanding God does not explain the Human Condition. But understanding why humans need a God does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_condition

If God was created by humans, why shouldn't we understand it (it not being God, but why humans created God)? What makes it any different from trying to understand how a gun works?



If I am unwilling, why would I read the Bible, and why would I ask where I can get a Quran?
I am willing to learn science. Why aren't you?
Ignorant? That makes two of us. But I'm learning. We'll see who can shed that tag first.



Let me ask you, not as an argument, but to understand your religion (since I don't know anything, right?), if we are not to know the reason, then wouldn't life be meaningless? How does that solve the existential question of humanity?

Prove? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_time
Not all have a date, but many do. You want the source, look it up yourself from there. References at the end of the page. I am not interested in proving religions wrong. I am interested in understanding why they do what they do, because not all make sense (for now).

Tell me, how difficult is it for humans to see white fluid (drop) coming out of a penis, stuck (hanging) inside a vagina, the swell (bite size) in the belly, and bones with flesh after the foetus is born?

How difficult is it to see those things, and make those connections? People in the 600s aren't idiots.
You have successfully called your prophet an idiot because you think he can't make simple connections.

Next "prove" please.

When did I claim fondness of the western world? Sorry, don't recall. Not all non-Muslims are fond of the western world, I can tell you that much.

I'm sorry, sir, but you are wrong again. There are more diseases not because of science, but because human lifestyle changes. Jump down from the third floor and land on your feet. Then, try again but land on your head. I assure you that you will have different injuries. And microbes (bacteria, virus etc) constantly evolve to fight for their survival. If we find a cure, they will evolve. Thanks for raising the fact that evolution is a viable theory, thus again showing that it is unlikely your God created humans.

So can I call energy God? Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Seems fair to me. Sounds like God too.

God remains a theory too. What is your point?

This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Jan 8 2010, 06:28 PM

1. energy is not a God.energy created by god to have its own criteria in order to use by us in many ways.

2. what is your prove to say God does not exist?

This post has been edited by kubing: Jan 8 2010, 10:49 PM

In my religion believe, there's not "God", there's alot of "god"s..

1. energy cannot be created.
2. because there is no proof god exist.

Here is a good outlook on arguing about God. It only takes 10 minutes.

But energy has no genitals, cannot be created, and cannot be destroyed. That is what you claim your God to be.

I don't have any prove of that. Neither do I intend to find it. But the more important thing is, YOU don't have any prove God exist. When scientist come out with a new hypothesis, they seek evidence to support or refute it. Believers came up with the God Hypothesis, but they have yet to prove it.

As it currently is, they are more evidence to support the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution than your God Hypothesis. By far.

See, you are thinking about GOD again. This specifically shows that human are delusional and constantly thinking about delusions. GOD isn't a creation or neither GOD creates human. You've been thinking about GOD in the first place.
Why the need to understand GOD in the first place? Only bunch of delusional people who are taking advantages over irrational people do.

The main point here, is to understand GOD itself, is a delusion. Human keep seeking for answers that they know that they could never find. And how a guns work isn't a delusion. It is scientifically proven and even people with faith knows how it works, at least generally. Why you are comparing guns with GOD again? That's simply irrational (refer to what I said above). The analogy of GOD (a delusion) isn't the same as known facts or science.

The exact point here - you've proven most mere mortals like yourself are delusional. GOD is a "mysterious" weapon for you irrational people to kill humanity and our rational minds. Either you're an atheismo or religulous, you are delusional from the start. Please, start thinking rationally and stop disillusioning about something that has been used to start war against humanity in the first place.

For the final joke, may GOD be with you, forever

1. We cant create energy but god
2. what about us? who create us?

flying spaghetti monster

i dont get it. wat do u mean by that