God is something that is "undefined", if human able to define "god" doesn't that make human god? we can't define His look, we can't define his location, we can't define the essence of his existence. But this doesn't mean He does not exist, if God exist in front of our eyes then nobody would be afar from His religion.

If one can define God, the "God" you define isn't The One True God, its just a manifestation of a being you called God. He is Exist but He purposefully make us doubt of his Existence. So this "Doubtful" being can try to find the correct path or stay astray. Those "He" favor will be guide by His Path.

If say scientology's that the world is created by an atom, does that mean the atom is The God? If not, what created the Atom?

Defining God is meaningless, if you can "define" god. Thats mean you just finish the game, He is undefined. Your mind will go crazy trying to define Him. You can define his existence, but you can never Define God as Himself. Be it a being or manifestation.

Open minded human being does not exist, everybody is a closed minded... those who is open minded is somebody who can absorb any information and able to give information.

rebuttal is not an information, there are no such human exist with such term as open minded. If he is, he would have accept the concept of God existence and able to talk about it and deliver satisfying information to all others. so the term Open Minded exist only to make you felt better, the real "open minded" does not exist.

I am a muslim but i do study christianity and jewish for the sake of comparison, it is funny that i come across such a silly testament (both bible and the old testament) which seems very much "humane" compared to Quran. Quran does not deny the existence of Christianity and Jewish, heck we even share the same prophet, Quran tell what is told in the "real" bible and old testament. And it is better for you to learn the language of the Quran rather than reading only the translation.

Quran is written isn't in all truly arabic, the rhythm is "in-humane", thats why muslim 'sang" the Quran in its original form, not in its translated form. The translated form is to give understanding to the reader. Quran does state and warn to not to "define" His existence, not because He is afraid that his cloak shall be removed. It's because he knows the limit of our own mind, he is the creator that make us... thats why when people/human failed to define God, they turn around and start making a statement to put themselves to ease.

We are unable to define God not because we can't, it's because He didn't let us to. Our mind is limited to his essence of existence and thats about it.

Im am implying the "concept" of open minded in relation with this thread, Like i said, open minded being does not exist... because we stand in believes, open minded being does not have believe, be it themselves or in god.

i don't ask for agreement in statement, there are way too many philosophy that none of it would share the same outcome. Open minded-ness is a behaviour of which a person would be able to comprehend all information and giving away satisfactory information to others. Open Minded-ness does not exist, because when you are in belief and believes, whether in yourself or other being. you are implying a mind-thinking attitude of one persona, when it was restricted. It was never open.

Science is there for a reason, its to provide truth that god is exist, not contradicting his existence. Atoms vibrate, but what make the atoms vibrate, far too many factorial including the universe movement, then come the next question... What moves the universe? people able to gave conceptual ideas of the how universe moves then come again a new question, how, where and when does the universe start to move? what trigger the movement? It come back to the basic of how Atoms vibrate... but what created the Atoms?

Human can only Question and Answer question made by their own, but they can't never question basic of basics.

Science is God's knowledge as in Religion is God's faith. It's his knowledge that we are so desperately trying to prove here. And my base deduction isn't about how the Atoms vibrated, its already been solve with way to many factorial contributing to why it is vibrating, it's the basic of all basics question... what created the atom, which until now human failed to answer. if you are trying to say the thread theory and things, that was never proven and it's too flawed to be taken into consideration.

All those science related found are all derivative of the basic of all basics question and equation, still there are no answers to all basic of all basics question. As to Why blood? Where did Atom originated from? What created it? its all those thing that human unable to answer.

I don't ask you to believe in my belief, stay with yours. What am I trying to prove here is those people who so called "open minded" whilst those being never existed, same goes for Shang-Ri La and Euforia. It's all myth to put our own "limited" mind to ease, its all just a self indulgence and self proclaimed title and myth.

1. "sang" the Holy Quran, read the translation. "read" the Holy bible (any version you like). "read" the translation of old testament (any version you love) [it's in hebrew unless you understand it]. The inability of non-believers to shove their face away from religion is what making them funny, I am a believer and i study (still in study) of religion, Take the Holy Quran (since its the only testament i was able to finish till now). It's stated that God doesn't want you to think beyond what your mind has to offer, All of Holy Quran is one large poem full of metaphor. God is Kind, yes. but He ain't going to give all knowledge to human by saying it straightforwardly.

2. Nobody like the fury of mother earth, be it believer or non-believer, It's stated in The Quran that the world is going to end, God wasn't too all kind to state date inside the Holy Quran, that just going to make human being selfishly idiotic with 'oh mai, we still haz teh time". But He stated the sign, there are both small and large sign. And it happen to be accurate all this while, please state your source upon this statement of yours so i may overlook it prophets' prediction of the end of the world is wrong. And that the world is not 10,000 years old like your prophets claim it is Our prophet (Muhammad), never gave a date. He just state the end of time, and there are no-where in any verse of Holy Quran nor his hadith stated that Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) say that earth is 10k years of age. During the event of Israq and Mikraj, Phophet Muhammad saw what he state is the resemblance of the earth, he state in one of his hadith (this never appear in the Quran mind you) that the earth look like an elderly woman, almost at the end of her age. He never stated age nor date. state your source. i beg of you.

3. Why the first law ever existed then? the question about energy being unable to be destroyed nor created is the basic of all basics question, same as what created atom etc. (the list goes on). we all failed to answer basic of most basics question after even soo long not because it was there and it was there, its because those being can't accept the existence of a Creator. and and if science help us to understand the things around us, what is it to understand? did we finally able to understand the "universe?" all i see what science has done is killing the universe. what is the most important understanding human trying to unseal? Science are there originally to prove the existence of God. After soo long it has been astrayed as human is selfish being, and take things upon themselves.

Q&A:
1. Understand means? science understand our surrounding? what has science done to our surrounding all this time? be honest.

1. Try Masjid Negara, as to borrow the Quran, you might not be able to bring it away from the mosque due to ethic reason. you are not shoving away from religion, you are just being pure ignorance. You want education, being spoonfed into your mouth. You did not do research about religion, you just "hear" about them. and you been hearing wrong. be it Islam, Christianity, jew, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever kind of religion are there. You are not being convince, you just being pure ignorance. You are willing to study science but unwilling to study religion proved just that. Why am i able to do so but you can't?

2. In Islam, there are teaching called Qadq and Qadr. Which stated whatever happen in this world happen for a reason, and to never question the reason but to take it as an endurance from God. We can grieve over death, the "fury of mother nature" but we can't never question it and blame it. And i ask for your source not your reason. and you kept giving me reason, stated your source so i can overlook. neither of the three teaching (Islam, Christianity and Jew) that their prophet (Muhammad, jesus and Moses) stated the date of the end of the world and gave the "age" of the earth. in Islam, there are over 3000 human being "whisper by God", 724 of them is Prophet, and 25 of the Prophet gifted by god with their own testament. And Muhammad is the last prophet. Jesus and Moses is in the "25". and i ask you again, please stated your source of claim about end of time and the age of the earth so i may overlook, or unless you want to confirm me that you made the claim yourself and agree that you are being ignorant.

3. Time for some prove aye? how about biology?

Sura - 23 The Believers (Al-Mu'minun); verse 14
"Then we developed the drop (sperm) into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator."

Source of translation: http://www.submission.org/

Mind you that Quran was brought down to earth during the year 6xx A.D. Thats around 1400 years ago. Also, in the quran stated how the earth is moving in its own system and rotating by the sun. Muslim have two part of guidance they would follow, The Quran; in which is God Word to the human. and Hadith; in which is God Whisper to Prophet Muhammad, in which he preach and being "recorded" in wording form by trusted resources. being his best followers during those time.

how do you explain in science (since you are being all great about it) that a mere "religious book" are able to state about phases of Human reproduction so early in 6xx A.D. When during those time, human only know how to "fcuk" " kill their baby because its blasphemy" and "trade goat for a bunch of vegetables with no currency". Science is the reason and brought me near to God, you who preach otherwise never took the chance to study religion in its whole, how can you convince yourself God is there when you can't even convince yourself in faith? Science is not faith, its knowledge, God's knowledge and the verse is my prove... whats yours?

Q&A: You sir, are indeed being ignorance. Why human of the western world (since you look so fond of them) come back to eating "organic" food, when deemed that bio-engineered food are indeed superior? and readily available? Why, since science has been blooming all this time, there are more disease than there are cure? with more and more of them emerging every moment? This is what backfired upon us for being ignorant that not to try and step foot into "God's region" and try to play God. like i said, people can't question basic of basics not because they can't... but because God didn't let them to.



This post has been edited by Yue: Jan 8 2010, 09:39 AM

2. poetic or not, i never disapprove the earth very own system of climatic control over seismic balance happen in the ring of fire across the pacific. I never deny science because there was me stating that science was God's Knowledge, but there are certain things in science that contradicting Religion, and those said things never end up as a fact... they stay as wavery theory up till now, unsolved and un-approved. but comes the next question, why there are more natural Disaster within these 15 years alone in comparison to 100 years before that? Why do earth so desperately trying to balance itself far too many times if it was just a mechanic? Its because the balance was way off that it went beyond "repair". Why do the balancing happen soo too many times if the earth itself wasn't showing to us human that it was about to gave up and end itself? science never be able to prove this but these were stated in the religion, be it Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

3. Your statement show naiveness my friend, never ever make such statement without proper evaluation and research. Its a translation of the Quran, as i were saying the whole Quran is a poem full of metaphor. It makes people question and wonder what it meant. A typo in the translation equate failure? so you wanted me to paste out the true writing of the Quran knowing you would understand nothing about it? good god you are weak. Lets retake Human reproduction alone, again. against Rig Veda said you; That wasn't the only verse in the Quran regarding Human Reproduction, they were scattered all over the Quran again to intrigue human very nature to wonder and question why is this thing keep popping out? so human could study and find out the truth.

Source of Translation: http://www.islam-guide.com/bqs/20human.htm

"O Man! Who deceives you about your Lord the Noble, Who created you and fashioned you in due proportion and gave you any form He willed."
"(God) fashioned you in (different) stages."
"(God) fashioned man from a small quantity (of sperm)."
"Was (man) not a small quantity of sperm which has been poured out?"
"Then We placed (man) as a small quantity (of sperm) in a safe lodging firmly established."
"(God) made his progeny from the quintessence of a despised liquid."
"We cause whom We (God is speaking) will to rest in the womb for an appointed term."
"We have fashioned you from . . . something which clings."
"We have fashioned the small quantity (of sperm) into something which clings."
"Was (man) not a small quantity of sperm which has been poured out? After that he was something which clings; then God fashioned him in due proportion."
"We fashioned the thing which clings into a chewed lump of flesh and We fashioned the chewed flesh into bones and We clothed the bones with intact flesh."
"(God) fashions you inside the bodies of your mothers, formation after formation, in three (veils of) darkness."

That was some of the verse stated in Quran about Human Reproduction, like i stated "some" since you like to take advantages of things so small questioning em without reasoning, and if you question a mere translation? i ask you to search for others, as translation are vague from human to human.

I have been providing verse from the Quran, now its your turn to post the "paragraph" of Rig Veda, i won't take google for an answer. And do bear in mind that Muslim's prophet Muhammad is illiterate, he couldn't even read his whole life and never was educated, and all of the sudden after "bertapa" in a cave he is preaching God's word. Thats enough for miracles.

edited: extra information and some typo

This post has been edited by Yue: Jan 8 2010, 03:30 PM