Where oh where in my posts did I mention United players did not dive?? I blasted Nani when he pretended as if he got hit after he headbutted Lucas Neill 3 years back. I blasted Ronaldo when he went down all to easily in the early stages of his career here. Hell. I even blasted Giggsy when he was in a stage of his career where he liked to put his hand on his hips and go "Eh, eh...ref??". So don't go mentioning that I play the holier than thou attitude when it comes to United players playacting.

As for the pen, my view was which as the replay shows is that Ramos barged into Ozil, denied him a goalscoring opportunity and which according to the letter of the law is a foul, hence a peno. That is my view. You have yours, fine. but in my book it's a stonewall penalty and possibly a sending off what with him being the last man and all.

As for the dives and playacting I can on and mention Torres against Chile or Capdevila against Portugal but don't really give a crap about those. It's the amount of diving and playacting in the final which bothered me the most since it was the game that mattered most.

And the Barca-Inter game mentioned, my point is that just because is down a man or two, doesn't really mean they have to roll over and die?? It's not a foregone conclusion. Hence the argument that even if De Jong had been sent off, it's no certainty that Spain would have won. I could state other games, ours against Spurs away when Scholesy got sent off would probably be one. Another one which I think would be best is Chelski's few years back where Maniche got sent off, against West Ham I think. They managed to win 4-0 and Maniche got sent off fairly early. Hence, not a foregone conclusion.

Ehh?? Just because I don't acknowledge diving I should stop watching the game?? Roughly 90% of my friends smokes, around 75% or so drinks and about 30 or 40% does recreational drugs. I don't do either of the things mentioned and don't agree with it. So should I stop befriending them?? I don't agree with them doing it nor can they force me to agree with them doing it. Ditto the diving thing. Just because a lot of people are starting to accept as it being part of the game, doesn't mean I have to. It's still wrong anyways otherwise there wouldn't be rules and punishments put into place to prevent simulations.

I for one cannot understand the appeal behind American sports like 'Football', where you use your hands more than your foot. Also a baseball game can last half the bloody day, and I'm not a fan of watching fat guys scratch their balls. I agree that 'Football' is a cleaner game but in comparison to rugby, it's like watching a chess match. I don't like stop and start games and that is exactly what 'Football' is.



Tell you what. I like the human element in the game as well. Sure it sucks when decisions go against you but it's like I always say, your luck evens out over the course of a season. People only focus on decisions that go against them but choose to conveniently ignore instances decisions went their way. Without controversial moments, there will be a lot less drama and points to debate over. On the plus side, blood pressure levels will probably be lower across the board and there will also be a decline in the number of bookies.

In terms of cheating, simulation or whatever you want to call it, I think it's more a moral issue. If a person thinks that it's ok to cheat to win, then that's his perogative. I for one don't see how I can celebrate being given a penalty if I know I dived. As supporters, the only thing we can do is to voice our disatisfaction at the said player even if he is from a team we support. Remember how Drogba got booed at Stamford Bridge? We can only put pressure on the players because we are clearly not in a position to dictate the rules, or mete out punishment. I think fans who back their players when they cheat are just as bad as the cheats themselves. The club should always come first and players have to earn the right to dorn their colours. No player, however big a superstar should be allowed to go against the principles of a club, and I don't believe any club condones cheating. We have a code of ethics for everything, so why not one for sports?

So were United deserving winners then when Ronaldo was throwing himself to the ground whenever a defender got close to him?

Agree to disagree then

So just because of this one game in which the opposition were overzealous and almost criminal going into their tackles, you judge that the other team doesn't deserve to win because they dived? Ok I get it now

And I can probably come up with another dozen examples of instances where teams took advantage of having an extra man. As you said it's not a foregone conclusion but knowing Spain's ability to keep possession it would have made it even harder for Holland to press as they did.

Exactly. You're tolerating your friends when they do all that. You don't go over your head bashing them saying they don't deserve to be your friends

Just because I tolerate it, doesn't mean I have to establish that it's right though. And my friends know better then to expect me to accept that what they are doing is right anyways.

The playacting from Capdevila which got the Portugal sent off didn't bother me that much. Nor did the dive from Torres which got the Chilean player sent off. but it's started to become a bit of a pattern didn't it? What bothered me was the amount of diving, in a WORLD CUP FINAL, the pinnacle game of the tournament or football even. And for the WC to be won in a game of that manner, that's what bothered me the most just as much as it would bother me if United won the Champions League if Rooney dived to win a peno in the 90th minute and got an opponent sent off. While it's always nice to win, it's just not right. That's the point I'm trying to put across and what I feel abut this Spanish win.

It's all in the game today. Diving and play acting. Most if not all players do it. It's something like "if you don't do it, someone's gonna do it, and that someone has a higher chance of winning the game".

And if that particular player in that team don't do it, his team mate would do it.

Another thing is, if player from your nation does it, most of the time, it's okay. If the opposition does it, you'll never hear the end of it. And that is why, ladies and gentlemen, football is such an interesting game.

Americans generally like sports that are played with hands hence baseball, basketball, american football and hockey.

In regards to rugby though, trust me when I say it's much harder than it looks. Used to play it up to the age of 23, Hurts much, much more too compared to American Football what with the no padding and all. And fun to play when you're pissed. Legal way to channel the anger.

I still believe that FIFA is the reason why diving & cheating is considered part of the game. Players can be given a 3 match ban after a review of video evidence of a violent conduct. Why not apply the same rule to cheating & diving? If the referee missed De Jong's or Van Bommel's tackle, they should be banned in their future international games. That should include the diving or card waving incidents. The final was horrible to watch & if future finals are like that, then i fear that the honour of the game will be lost because FIFA & football fans in general are accepting it as part of an interesting game of football.

i think the idea that video replay slow down game is wrong, the game is always being slow down by player faking injuries, they should have one or two more official that watch the game from multiple monitor on the sideline and review the incident with instant replay, if they found the player are acting or foul that go unnotice, they will inform the ref to issue card. also the team should get may be three chance to call for replay if they want to dispute decision on a goal/foul/offside/penalty.

all these have been implement in NBA, tennis, american football, it should work for football as well.

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Added on July 14, 2010, 11:43 ami think american only like sport that have break between play every few minutes, they dont have long attention span also the break is good for tv station to run ads.

This post has been edited by robertngo: Jul 14 2010, 11:43 AM

You mean ice hockey right?

I agree with the rugby. Friend of mine used to play in Singapore and he's said the same thing. Dudes generally like to puff their chests out, and wrestle a little every now and then. It's natures design. I used to like watching Aussie rules as well. I may be wrong but it strikes me that by and large, American fans watch sports more for entertainment whilst football fans in particular do so for more personal reasons. Like if you watch a football game, the pre-game barbeque, and generally the whole days atmosphere is taken in, which is why I reckon they don't mind that baseball games take so long. Thinking out loud here.

I completely agree. I mean it's ridiculous to think that you can get booked for over celebrating. What the heck does that mean anyway? So a cheat gets away scott free, and someone gets booked for being happy he scored? Makes no sense to me.

The Yanks only refer to them as hockey but yeah, ice hockey. I generally used rugby as a way to let out whatever anger I had pent up in me at that point in time. It's legal, so why not make full use of it. It's very much obvious American's watch sports for entertainment. Why do you think then there's a need for cheerleaders, half time shows or fireworks displays?? Not that I mind the cheerleaders bit. Hahaha.

now the world cup is over there is the question of what the effect will be on the winning country, will the new found pride and joy help to unite spain? it is surely a change when in barcelona a large crowd is waving the spanish flag instead of burning it.



just three days ago people are out in the street to protest againts spain control waving catalan flag

Status quo will resume once the euprohia dies down.

Celebration went a little over the top eh? 2 dead and 100 injured?
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?from=rss_Sp...61353745C408945

Nelson Mandela did it for South Africa with the Rugby World Cup.

I think you've a point here. But, I still think this doesn't affect the value of Spain's win. The image of football is just like what it is today. By branding them poor winners, it is definitely unfair to the current crop of Spain players and their fantastic talent. Its not like they asked God to be playing football of this era, so that they can dive their way to the trophy. FIFA should be the one to be questioned, but Spain at least showed the world how to play football, meaning by kicking that round object around, and winning at the same time.

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Added on July 14, 2010, 2:06 pmLOL, that is rare one

This post has been edited by matyrze: Jul 14 2010, 02:06 PM

For those who pontificate that

1. Spain does not deserve the WC Final. Some of your reasons are viz Spain cheated & playacts . Dutch has more chances the Spanish. Absoulte rot IMO;
a. The match stats say otherwise i.e. Spain had more goalscoring chances, on targets, possessions, corners etc.
b..Spain won 2010 FIFA Fairplay Award. This is the 2nd time for them whereas the Dutch has never won one. Millions of neutral fans worldwide or those that rooted for the Dutch initially, were relieved that Spain won. Can you argue otherwise?

2. On a separate note, Yes, Ozil should have been given a penalty. Yes IMO the referee didn't have the bottle to give it.

3. Puyol should have been send off in the 84th. min. for tugging Robben's shirt & fouling him. Absoulte rot IMO
Howard Webb got it right because Robben instigate the foul by gaining an unfair advantage in the first place. See my thread

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1490336

My reason for posting this is (comment 3) because obviously an overwhelming majority of you saw the instant replay but not in the full context or have been selectively wind up by the football commentators. Think for yourself don't let them do it or con you is my humble submission.

P.S. For those who continually bring up Rivaldo's playacting. Why don't you bring up VDS playacting for getting Ortega send off in 1998 WC. Thats equally egregious IMO on par with Kaka getting redcarded. Why?
Because of the Dutch (or anti Argie) sanctimonious stance against Ortega's diving for a penalty? To me its just like the Pope condemning adultery but forgiving its priests for paedophilia.

This post has been edited by CityBluePrint: Jul 17 2010, 12:12 AM

Viva Espana!
Visca Espana!

Even if this is 5 days old. I gotta say, Johan Cruyff is being arrogant and disgraceful. I mean he said the dutch football, he's assuming to HIS football which i think is saying that he created dutch football as a whole and being big by naming it on an entire country. Thats definitely more arrogant than Mourinho.

Let me add another thing, on what basis does he thinks that dutch football needs to stick to his football for eternity ? I mean as hell Italy could play free-flowing, passing football if they want to.

This post has been edited by visionary1993: Jul 18 2010, 08:34 AM

Now he is arrogant? What's wrong for him stating the obvious? See the picture of De Jong's kick again, and see if you can say that again. Take it easy now, don't make up too much story on your own.

So its OK for the Dutch to change their way of playing; total football to dirty football?

This WC actually was spoiled by FIFA. FIFA as a total football head, they should know how to make football better, not just world cup itself, and also normal daily league game played. Players are human as we said, so they tend to make mistake. Problem is why they tend to make suck mistake, it is just for the world cup or just because they used to played like that. Referee should make sure every player should played in certain level of roughness. He can't sometimes soft and sometimes strict. Players also need to be honest, some where not fouled by opponent it maybe accidentally fall. He should tell the referee. But this kind of thing hard to happened.

De Jong's boot was high. I admit. But there's like a number of other players playing studs high like that. Its just that Alonso was going towards the challenge that made it much much more worse. And to be honest, if you've been following Alonso for a whole long time, you wouldnt guess that the player that gets into fouls the most, and resulting in the opposition getting red cards is Alonso.
Sorry but i cant resist just lamenting this spanish-wannabe guy that "created" Dutch football.
So its OK for the Spaniards to change their way of playing; free-flowing football to primadonna football, jumping and diving the moment there's chance or use the press to lure other contract-bind players and furthermore talking thrash before the game saying that we will beat this team, and that and whatever since they're so called the GREATEST ?
Thing is, it happens and its part of football. ALL of it.
Sadly, there isnt any Dutch-wannabe from Spain who would criticise for this.

Its ok for the Dutch to change their way of playing PERIOD.

Sorry I thought this Spain team had class. A class that is respected by the whole world. But after all the crap this year, not just in the world cup, I dont see it, or any part of it.

This post has been edited by visionary1993: Jul 18 2010, 01:31 PM