Nah, I've already stated that the Spanish were clearly the better team on the day. They were poor winners of the cup though. The fact that they were a lot of play-acting and diving by the Spanish, that bothered me. I can't remember where I read it but I thought the description was apt. This final was like 94 one, but with loads more diving.

The playacting bit, it was in this final game where it really, really stood out didnt it?? Iniesta going down repeatedly and what really, really surprised me was Xavi. Never pegged him as that sort of player. But this final game was where the playacting really, really stood out. Although I did recall seeing a very, very funny video of Torres going down when there was no one around him at all. Can't recall which game it was though. And recall Villa being blasted for going down easily in some other game as well.

Ozil was complaining asking for the peno, which was a very clear one. You mentioned one peno turned down doesn't effect anything. Let's play the what if game where you stated that it would have been a different game had De Jong been sent off earlier. You think it wouldn't have been the same case had the Germans got the peno and Ramos sent off?? It would have been very, very different and it happened in the 1st half as well if I recall correctly.

As I mentioned as well, not really a supporter of any of the teams in the final. Hell, didn't really care who won. No attachment whatsoever to National teams, only to United. What bothered me was the amount of cynical tackling and playacting that was going on in the game hence why I said it was a shame that this was the final match determining who was winning the Cup.

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Added on July 13, 2010, 4:09 pmNah, I've already stated that the Spanish were clearly the better team on the day. They were poor winners of the cup though. The fact that they were a lot of play-acting and diving by the Spanish, that bothered me. I can't remember where I read it but I thought the description was apt. This final was like 94 one, but with loads more diving.

The playacting bit, it was in this final game where it really, really stood out didnt it?? Iniesta going down repeatedly and what really, really surprised me was Xavi. Never pegged him as that sort of player. But this final game was where the playacting really, really stood out. Although I did recall seeing a very, very funny video of Torres going down when there was no one around him at all. Can't recall which game it was though. And recall Villa being blasted for going down easily in some other game as well.

Ozil was complaining asking for the peno, which was a very clear one. You mentioned one peno turned down doesn't effect anything. Let's play the what if game where you stated that it would have been a different game had De Jong been sent off earlier. You think it wouldn't have been the same case had the Germans got the peno and Ramos sent off?? It would have been very, very different and it happened in the 1st half as well if I recall correctly.

As I mentioned as well, not really a supporter of any of the teams in the final. Hell, didn't really care who won. No attachment whatsoever to National teams, only to United. What bothered me was the amount of cynical tackling and playacting that was going on in the game hence why I said it was a shame that this was the final match determining who was winning the Cup.

This post has been edited by air_mood: Jul 13 2010, 04:09 PM

The fact that Spain outplayed German was accepted by the whole world, even for the Germans themselves. You can't deny that.

I think you are relying too heavily in statistics. You don't consider (or maybe you just purposely close your eyes) that ALL opponents against Spain were just playing 1 type of ball game: sit and wait, bar Chile. Having to play against 9 defenders, how can we expect Spain to score past them 3/4 goals? Did opponents for Germany/Holland/England/Argentina in this WC played that way? Football is not all about goals, that would be too simple for a team sport as complex as football.

You are right about Sid Lowe, but did he get his opinion all wrong? Read again, if you've read it.

To say that Howard Webb was "inconsistent" is an understatement if you ask me. I think he has had a poor season by his standards. When I say, "his standards", I refer to the earlier part of his career where he had an almost umblemished record, making calls that were spot on. I'm surprised that he dished out so many yellow cards especially since he is a Premiership ref.

I have to agree. I hate all the playacting. I simply cannot bring myself to respect a player, regardless of club, who feigns injury or dives. Such acts can tarnish the image of the greatest players. People may remember Maradona for being a brilliant player, which he was but still, he cheated on the biggest stage and saw nothing wrong in it. This to me speaks volumes of a person. You'll note that it is in high pressure situations that a person's true colours come to the fore. Anyone remember Rivaldo's incident? Ball hit his knee and he went down clutching his face. What a disgrace. Yes, Iniesta was fragile but not more so than Robben who looked like he got hit by a sledgehammer each time he went down. I think it's a matter of pride more than anything. If one wants to be known as a cheater or diver, then it's his perogative. I just hope it isn't a true reflection of one's character is all.

In my opinion, Spain deserved the title. So what if they didn't score that many goals? I really enjoyed watching them pass the ball around with relative ease. There isn't a doubt in my mind that they dominated almost everyone they played with in that department. Even the Germans couldn't match them after having obliterated Argentina's non-existent midfield. In the end, I won my pool so I'm a happy camper

You have your opinions and I respect them but I just want to comment about this incident. If Ramos was sent off it would have been extremely harsh. There was contact but only because Ozil made a sudden turn and stuck his left foot out. Ramos didn't even make any attempt to tackle him. The only way he could have avoided contact was if he completely stopped running which is frankly ridiculous as he had to deal with that particular situation. Should a pen have been given? Maybe. But I can also understand why the ref waved it away.

Which was why I was surprised when he didn't go down after Puyol fouled him. The Robben we all knew would have and it was a clear foul anyway as Puyol has his hands across Robben.

Might have been harsh. but the rules states that Ramos prevented him from a goalscoring opportunity did he?? It was barge into Ozil's leg. Irregardless, it should have been a peno at the very least, that is definite. A sending off, well it can go either way.

You can't say that Ramos could only avoid it if he had completely stopped. Just because he didn't mean it, doesn't mean it wasn't a foul. Let's take for an example the fleet footed wingers. Robben at his best for Chelski had a very bad injury because he got caught by Aaron Mokoena. Mokoena of course apologised afterwards saying that he mistimed as Robben was too quick for him. Mokoena's fault not Robben for being too quick. Same case for Ramos here. Because Ozil made a sudden turn which collided with Ramos' current momentum, it's still a foul as he was denying Ozil a goalscoring opportunity. He probably didn't mean it but just because he had good intentions and didn't mean it, doesn't mean it was a non foul.

So if Ozil did get penalty, Spain wouldn't get to win the WC then? Germany will win for sure?

Firstly it was not a clear cut goal scoring opportunity. Ozil wasn't even in a position to pull the trigger yet and there was another defender there.
Secondly Ozil's turn did not collide with Ramos' momentum. Ozil actually turned away from Ramos who was running alongside him initially. By turning away his left foot sort of stuck out and Ramos sort of tripped over it. You can watch replays of it over again.
First time I saw it I thought the ref made the right call cause Ramos didn't stick a leg out to tackle. Replays showed there was contact but as I said it's understandable why the ref dismissed it.

We can argue over 50-50 incidents over and over again without ever coming to a conclusion. So might as well just let it go.

airmood, the De Jong incident was just brought up as a reference, it wasn't brought up initially until people kept whining about Puyol's foul, hence it was a hypothetical issue.

On the other hand, if the Dutch were to score and win the match in this case, I can only say, the Spain squad missed the opportunity to win the cup, no excuses on whether De Jong or Bommel should have been sent off. That was what I meant, so if only Robben seized the chance, it might be the Dutch celebrating and the Spanish whining to the press saying that De Jong should've been sent off. Either way, I'm just unhappy at the fact that people kept blaming the ref as well as play acting from the Spanish camp, so no fingers point at themselves? For the kick boxing tactics? For Robben's diving antics?

most time he is drop like stone when there is not a really good chance to score so he try to win the freekick, but this time it was a great chance to score the winner for world cup final, maybe webb have see Robben take a tumble some many time he dont think there is foul in that case. as you said everyone thought Robben will go down when he is fouled.

This post has been edited by robertngo: Jul 13 2010, 05:24 PM

It doesn't have to be a clear cut goal scoring opportunity though, just a goal scoring opportunity, which that was, hence foul.

Anyways, why I mentioned the incident was because there was some talk on ho if De jong was sent off, which he should have been btw, the game's outcome would have been sown up much earlier which of course, I argued against, citing the Barca-Inter game this season as a reference.

For the record, I'm glad for players like Casillas and Pique to have won it whom I happen to see as OK guys. Hell, even Alonso who was probably the only Liverpool player I can stand. Thought Xavi was admirable at one point what with being very low key and all, very Scholes like if you will, just goes on with his business on the field not bothered about what happens off it but the finals change my opinion a bit though. The likes of Iniesta, Busquets, Capdevila, Silva can f off though.

Oh..and I have also always maintained that Sergio Busquets, the play-acting prick should be sent off and banned from football for being Sergio Busquets, so make what you will of that.

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Added on July 13, 2010, 5:26 pmCrap, why does my post has to have the same tone as lilredridinghood...now people will start to think that I copied her post off. Hahaha.

Ohh by the way. I didn't just point fingers at the Spanish's playacting did I?? I repeatedly pointed out the Dutch's cynical fouling. Why did you think I said that neither deserved to win the WC?? Well, morally at least.

This post has been edited by air_mood: Jul 13 2010, 05:28 PM

It was overwhelming seeing Casillas cry. It shows that the cup really meant a lot to him. Made me forget the hate on Busquets for a while....

You get a dozen physical contacts in the penalty box every game. If a pen was to be given for every one of them it would be ridiculous. If Ramos stuck his foot out I would put up my hand and say it's a surefire pen. But he didn't and the ref let it go. Doesn't mean the ref got it wrong. It's a 50-50 call.

How can that game be a reference? Inter brought a 3-1 lead from the first leg. Totally different circumstances when compared to a 1-off game tied at 0-0 still. Mourinho could just set up not to concede and still win the tie. Holland needed to win unless they were willing to try their luck on penalties.

Well it's easy to take the moral high ground but to claim they are undeserving winners is a little rich even for you. Since when was it whoever dived the least gets to win the WC?
And it isn't like Spain were the only team engaging in a little playacting throughout the WC. Busquets is someone I despise as well but he's kept his diving to a minimum in this tournament. To be singled out like that when there have been far worse examples, you just come off as someone extremely bitter. And let's not pretend that United players have never dived before in their lifetime. I hate playacting as much as anyone but players will continue to do it. You might as well quit watching football now if it irks you so much

People who are acknowledging the matter of diving as something normal in football is in fact condoning it..that's why it keeps happening. If FIFA is strict on diving or even on the imaginary card waving antics, it would never be problem again would it?

I never said it should be normal in football nor am I condoning it. But I agree FIFA needs to take a stricter stance on it.
But neither should it be the reason for you not to enjoy a good game of football.

I still think that the winner of world cup will be between germany or spain..cuz..

Robben and Elia..want to play all the balls on their own...

no player is perfect like i said, rooney dives as well.
nani is also another actor. ronaldo was king as well.
does that make united poor winners of the premier league?
that still doesn't mean we didn play good football and are not deserving winners of the premier league when we won it 3 in a row.
so why should spain be regarded as poor winners?
quit it already,
how is the play acting in the final more significant than the fact that spain was the best footballing team in the world cup? to the extent that you can conclude spain as poor winners?
were italy and brazil clean winners of the world cup previously? rivaldo? materazzi? is there one championship winning team who plays like angels and have squeaky clean record?
this spanish team plays one of the best football i've seen. those who understands the game will know just how highly talented these bunch of players are. Possession football is the hardest tactic in football, and they've made it look so easy, against world class players as well. it's a pity alot of ppl just do not appreciate their game.

Maybe he felt that he could still score....he missed an earlier one to one chance. So its logical that his instinct is telling him to just keep on running and have a shot in the Puyol incidence...and grab the glory/redeem your mistake..

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Added on July 13, 2010, 10:25 pminterestingly, i met a few Americans 2 weeks back and they were telling me how football is getting out dated and needs a revamp in many things....they were telling me that sending off 1 player and causing a 11 vs 10 is silly (they are proposing that you can send a player off but replace him with another player), that there is too much acting, blah blah....(It was amusing to listen to their big talk but i didnt want to spoil it since they were on high after USA qualified for the 2nd round...hehehehe).

then they told me that in comparison, American football is a cleaner game (more referees, lesser acting and controversies in terms of referee error, player acting, sending off, etc).

Which got me thinking...maybe that is why bolasepak is a beautiful/interesting game.....it still has a lots of `humanistic' elements on it....

of course...if its Liverpool who is on the receiving end of a referee error, causing us to loose the title to Man U on the last day of the league, i will be fuming too....







This post has been edited by nando: Jul 13 2010, 10:25 PM

eh what happened to the imaginary card waving rule ? The spanish players love to wave the imaginary card to the ref whenever a crunching tackle was made by the dutch and yet no card was given.

FIFA is really inconsistent with their rules

bro, aint that the italians?

gee, just wondering........try digesting this

imagine you are vicente del bosque (some job but the moustache, no), and you know at least 1 of the dutch will kick your arse about in the game (a certain dirty scum by the name of van bommel), what do you do? tell your players to kick him back? take it up their arse?

to me, i think this another side of tactics. you play hard with them, you end up risking your own players sent off. this is the world cup final, everything is at stake. what the spaniards did was complain, and again, enforce the complains with some play acting to stop the dutch tactics of kicking. scum though van bommel is, it is still the way they play it. they wanna win it too, be it dirty or ugly. i hate that tactic, but still, it's a tactic nonetheless. they cannot match the spaniards' passing/possession game. contrary to how people may see the final, i though it was great. the dutch employed their tactics of kicking the spaniards well and the spanish team passed and psychoed well. i am a spain supporter, so naturally, i am happy spain won it.

about the penalties or the send offs that should or should not have been, that's why you guys love football dont you? it is because of the imperfections. the what might have beens, well, you can dwell on it but dont get too worked up on it will you? ozil's supposed penalty that should have been, 50-50 like some said. bear in mind the ref had only 1 chance to look at it. part of the game. there was contact, quite a strong claim. it could have been given.

robben's case on puyol. well, puyol really did some really poor piece of wrestling, but robben took advantage of puyol's fall but couldnt beat casillas. i thought if robben had fallen instead of staying on his feet, puyol could have been taking an early bath. i thought there was one thing on webb's mind, that is, he really understands that it is a world cup final. would anyone want it marred with sending offs? he could easily have sent off de jong for that potentially murderous kick on xabi alonso. in the end, there were just so many that he could take, hence the johnny red, perhaps. but van bommel really should be the one walking.

the dutch supporters will say to the spanish supporters that they should live with the tackles, they're part of the game. the spanish supporters will say to the dutch supporter that they should also take the play acting up the butty, part of the game.

+1