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 HDTV FAQ, For all Console users

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TSH@H@
post Jan 28 2005, 10:57 AM, updated 21y ago

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To all you with questions about HDTV quality and comparison between consoles on HDTV, please refer to this FAQ to ensure that you're actually enjoying HDTV to the fullest.

QUOTE
The simple explanation of Digital TV

    Digital TV describes the current crop of higher scan frequency sets.  The designation is bestowed on sets that are able to display progressive signals or include a line doubler to convert the incoming viewable NTSC signal at 480i (interlaced) to 480p (progressive).  Digital TV can be 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio.  Ultimately, it is the ability to display the high resolution image defined by the ATSC standards of 1080i or 720p that is the solid foundation of Digital TV.

HDTV or HD-Ready

    During the course of shopping for a digital television, the labels HDTV and HD-Ready maybe of some confusion to the consumer.  This HDTV designation signifies that the set has an internal ATSC tuner/decoder, as well as meeting the widescreen specifications often required to be considered a true HDTV.  The sets will meet the requirement to display in 1080i/720p, although it is often the former only.  Very few digital TVs on the market will display in native 720p.  The lack of an ATSC tuner/decoder is not necessarily a negative as many set-top decoders are now available with more features than those included in the integrated HDTV.  The separate purchase of a HD-Ready TV and the external set-top-box often provides flexibility to the consumer to choose one that offers added features such as satellite receiver and the proper output signal.  Most HD-Ready sets will include a high-band component (Y-Pb-Pr) DTV input, although few on the market also offers RGB for this purpose.  There have been much debate between manufacturers as to the aspect ratio specifications of the HDTV designation, and it is now recognized that a true HD set will provide widescreen 16:9 aspect screen.

Industry Standards

    Due to the confusion in the Digital Television labeling, the Consumer Electronics Association has defined the descriptions for television equipment standards listed below:

    High-Definition Television (HDTV): HDTV refers to a complete product/system with the following minimum performance attributes:

        * Receiver: Receives ATSC terrestrial digital transmissions and decodes all ATSC Table 3 video formats
        * Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 interlaced (1080i), or higher
        * Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image1
        * Audio: Receives and reproduces, and/or outputs Dolby Digital audio

    High-Definition Television (HDTV) Monitor: HDTV Monitor refers to a monitor or display with the following minimum performance attributes:

        * Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 720 progressive (720p), 1080 interlaced (1080i), or higher
        * Aspect Ratio: Capable of displaying a 16:9 image (1)

          (1) In specifications found on product literature and in owner's manuals, manufacturers are required to disclose the number of vertical scanning lines in the 16:9 viewable area, which must be 540p, 810i or higher to meet the definition of HDTV.

    Enhanced Definition Television (EDTV): EDTV refers to a complete product/system with the following minimum performance attributes:

        * Receiver: Receives ATSC terrestrial digital transmissions and decodes all ATSC Table 3 video formats
        * Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 480 progressive (480p) or higher
        * Aspect Ratio: None Specified
        * Audio: Receives and reproduces, and/or outputs Dolby Digital audio

    Enhanced Definition Television (EDTV) Monitor: EDTV Monitor refers to a monitor or display with the following minimum performance attributes:

        * Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines of 480 progressive (480p) or higher
        * Aspect Ratio: None specified
        * Audio: Receives and reproduces, and/or outputs Dolby Digital audio

    Standard Definition Television (SDTV): SDTV refers to a complete product/system with the following performance attributes:

        * Receiver: Receives ATSC terrestrial digital transmissions and decodes all ATSC Table 3 video formats, and produces a useable picture
        * Display Scanning Format: Has active vertical scanning lines less than that of EDTV
        * Aspect Ratio: None specified
        * Audio: Receives and reproduces usable audio

How to connect a PC to an HD-Ready Digital TV?

aa_vga.gif (15770 bytes)

If there is one question that we receive here on a daily basis, that would be "how do I hook up a PC to my HDTV?".  The value of being able to use the big screen in the family room as a PC monitor is compelling, entertainment melding regular broadcasts with web surfing, 3D gaming, DVD video playback and access to special features, and MP3 jukebox storage and playback.

The combination in theory sounds like a match made in heaven, a high frequency display and a computer, but manufacturers have not been so cooperative.  Recently, DVI based HDTV displays have appeared on the market which may allow you to by-pass this article, but video timing issues as explained still apply.  It is not a simple task, but one which is possible with a little persistence and more importantly, the right gadgets.

The introduction of the HDTV brought us the high-band Component input, otherwise known as Y-Pb-Pr.  While the internal working of the HDTV set had similarities to a PC monitor, the new format is not compatible with the PC standard of VGA otherwise known as RGBHV. 

It seemed that the two would never come together until RCA introduced their first HDTV tuner box, which prompted two manufacturers to step up to the plate to create the VGA to Component trascoder.  Originally designed as a solution to connect RCA's VGA based DTC-100 HDTV tuner to component based HDTV, the transcoder soon became popular with the PC and home theater enthusiasts that wanted to use their PC's DVD player and other entertainment applications on their brand new HD-Ready/HDTV.  The result is a product that will receive a computer/HDTV signal from RGB/VGA format, convert and re-send the signal to the Progressive Component (Y-Pb-Pr) input of HDTV sets.  The models of transcoders available from the two companies are listed below:

Audio Authority - 9A60 VGA to Component Converter
Key Digital - KD-VTCA3 VGA to Component Converter

Now, the caveats......

It's important to know the limitations of this solution as there are no existing standards between the two connection/signal types.  The important details are:

1.  This converter will not work on a standard analog NTSC interlaced TV. Your TV must be an HD-Ready set.

2.  Resolution is limited by the Digital TV used.  While the PC is capable of outputting high resolutions, the HD-Ready set is often fixed to the high-definition TV standards of 480p or 1080i at mere 60Hz cycle (known as refresh rate on a PC).  A proper signal must be generated from the PC to display an image, and not adhering to the signal frequency can damage your HDTV.

3.  The consumer TV often suffers from overscan, cutting of screen information that may make navigation difficult.  Image on the right below is an example of overscan.

user posted image
Properly sized screen                                   

user posted image
Overscanned image

The above limitations can be overcome providing that your PC's hardware can support special resolutions, and you are able to properly configure the output.  One resolution that will require no special modification is 640x480 (480p) @ 60Hz which should work on virtually all HD-Ready TV.  For those that want to use a higher resolutions (more ideal for web surfing and DVD playback), an application by Entech called PowerStrip can set custom resolutions/timing to match the optimal frequency of your HDTV (normally 1080i, sometimes 720p)

For more information on how to configure your HDTV to a PC, read Wayne Harrelson's Excellent Guide to PowerStrip.

Point of Interest:  Reverse transcoders are available to connect a Progressive Component output (Progressive Scan DVD, XBox) to RGB/VGA for use with a PC Monitor.

Audio Authority 9A62 Component to VGA Converter
Key Digital KD-CTCA3 Component to VGA Converter
Source: Digital Connection

And here's an extra bit from fellow forumer stringfellow:
QUOTE
The connection method for usage for your videogame consoles is virtually the same as connection to PC, only that you dont have to tinker with Powerstrip , it is preset to the three popular HDTV modes, 480p, 720p and 1080i.


Thanks to stringfellow for the link and info.

So, please refer to this before starting any new threads on HDTVs and please post any questions about it here. Feel free to post further info here as well.
stringfellow
post Jan 28 2005, 11:21 AM

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Be advised that not all Component inputs are capable of relaying HD signals. You will need to check with your TV user manual to make sure the Component input on your TV supports any of the three HD modes.

And oh, 100hz Progressive scan IS NOT a HD Mode, it is a cheap ploy by current TV manufacturer to imply that their TVs have some sort of HD Mode in them. 100Hz Progressive scan ONLY cleans the video signal received from the antennae from terrestrial TV or other available inputs on the TV. Since this process merely repeats/doubles the INTERLACED scanlines on the TV, your eyes is fooled into thinking that the image is smoother and clearer.

For more read-up on Interlaced vs Progressive , point your mice here:-
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/...ve-10-2000.html

In short, Interlaced is shitty because you see your video images as a series of scanlines with alternate black lines between them.Progressive video signals draws the entire picture.Since interlaced video signals draws the image on screen as alternate lines,fast moving scenes appear "broken" or "jaggied".On an already jaggified games on consoles like PS2, this makes the picture even worse.
biatch0
post Jan 28 2005, 05:45 PM

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Muahaha... everything looks better after I switched to component inputs... even the grass in WE8!!! The grass really is greener on the other side!!!

BTW, I can't find an option on GT4 to switch the video mode to 720p... it only shows 1080i and 480p?
silkworm
post Jan 28 2005, 10:00 PM

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QUOTE(stringfellow @ Jan 28 2005, 11:21 AM)
And oh, 100hz Progressive scan IS NOT a HD Mode, it is a cheap ploy by current TV manufacturer to imply that their TVs have some sort of HD Mode in them. 100Hz Progressive scan ONLY cleans the video signal received from the antennae from terrestrial TV or other available inputs on the TV. Since this process merely repeats/doubles the INTERLACED scanlines on the TV, your eyes is fooled into thinking that the image is smoother and clearer.
*
100Hz scan is not HDTV, that's for certain. (still having bad memories of that Samsung Tanto, eh stringfellow?). An interlaced picture consists of an odd and even field. A 100Hz Scan TV (for eg, Panasonic Tau Giga) takes each field, and fills in the gaps by repeating each available line. This is called line-doubling. A line-doubled field becomes a "frame" as in "frames per second". The newly reconstructed frames are then displayed twice, thus achieving 100Hz or 100fps. On certain TVs, when playing videogames there may be a noticeable lag between controller input and on-screen action.

Obviously, line-doubling makes vertical "jaggies" even more apparent. Sometimes line-doubling is called "bob" de-interlacing. Because the odd and even lines are offset by 1 line, the even "frame" ends up one line lower than the "odd" frame. When showing still pictures, the image may appear to "bob" up and down.

The Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) HDTV standard fixes the vertical refresh rate at 30Hz for all the HDTV modes (480p, 720p and 1080i). 30Hz may sound a bit low and flickery, but new screen technologies like LCDs and Plasmas and upcoming stuff like OLEDs and CNT-FED aren't subjected to flicker like CRTs are. CRT based HDTVs also use frame doubling to up the refresh rates to a more respectable rate, but since they are working from actual progressive image sources, they don't suffer for it like the "100Hz" sets.

edit: 480p is EDTV, oops

This post has been edited by silkworm: Jan 30 2005, 09:54 AM
prazole
post Jan 30 2005, 04:50 AM

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QUOTE(biatch0 @ Jan 28 2005, 05:45 PM)
Muahaha... everything looks better after I switched to component inputs... even the grass in WE8!!! The grass really is greener on the other side!!!

BTW, I can't find an option on GT4 to switch the video mode to 720p... it only shows 1080i and 480p?
*
is 480p better than 1080i ?
coz one if progressive, another interlaced?

sweat.gif
biatch0
post Jan 30 2005, 06:21 AM

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From what I understand, there are only two HDTV modes; one is 1080i (which is interlaced) and the other is 720p (progressive). From the numbers, you should be able to figure out that 720p is better than 1080i.

480p is not a HDTV mode, rather a EDTV mode...

Now, don't be lazy... just read the first post... all of the info is there.
un9ku
post Jan 30 2005, 08:52 AM

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malaysia got hdtv? i mean, if i get hdtv, then its purpose is only for games. no hdtv broadcast rite? if got also, who wants to watch malaysian tv channels on hdtv, filled with crap.
bem69
post Jan 31 2005, 10:19 AM

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Excellent post, just what I need to get my next TV biggrin.gif
jacky
post Jan 31 2005, 02:21 PM

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bem69, still havent buy hdtv yet?
what TV are u getting? brows.gif

I am now looking at the Philips 29" series drool.gif
xbizkit
post Feb 2 2005, 06:32 PM

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I'm using Sony (Model:KV-DA29M61), HD-Ready TV with Sony Component cable somehow I can see a fade ring in the middle of the screen while playing GT4 in 1080i mode, size sligthly bigger than a CD. It is exceptionly obvious when running on open space.

I can see it all the time even in replay mode. Noted: I can see it from any camera angle, so I'm pretty sure it is not the game effect.

The ring just stick there in the middle of the screen & doesn't move with the view of camera.

Is it normal for HD-ready TV for GT4 in 1080i mode?

Is this TV good enough for GT4? I still can see some jagged image and a bit laggy eventhough it is way lesser than S-video cable.
tot31
post Feb 2 2005, 06:38 PM

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QUOTE(xbizkit @ Feb 2 2005, 06:32 PM)
I'm using Sony (Model:KV-DA29M61), HD-Ready TV with Sony Component cable somehow I can see a fade ring in the middle of the screen while playing GT4 in 1080i mode, size sligthly bigger than a CD. It is exceptionly obvious when running on open space.

I can see it all the time even in replay mode. Noted: I can see it from any camera angle, so I'm pretty sure it is not the game effect.

The ring just stick there in the middle of the screen & doesn't move with the view of camera.

Is it normal for HD-ready TV for GT4 in 1080i mode?

Is this TV good enough for GT4? I still can see some jagged image and a bit laggy eventhough it is way lesser than S-video cable.
*
I don't think it's your tv as I also have the same effect ring on my non HDTV 25" Panasonic.I think it's the game effect.
xbizkit
post Feb 2 2005, 06:51 PM

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" HDTV or HD-Ready

During the course of shopping for a digital television, the labels HDTV and HD-Ready maybe of some confusion to the consumer. This HDTV designation signifies that the set has an internal ATSC tuner/decoder, as well as meeting the widescreen specifications often required to be considered a true HDTV. The sets will meet the requirement to display in 1080i/720p, although it is often the former only. Very few digital TVs on the market will display in native 720p. The lack of an ATSC tuner/decoder is not necessarily a negative as many set-top decoders are now available with more features than those included in the integrated HDTV. The separate purchase of a HD-Ready TV and the external set-top-box often provides flexibility to the consumer to choose one that offers added features such as satellite receiver and the proper output signal. Most HD-Ready sets will include a high-band component (Y-Pb-Pr) DTV input, although few on the market also offers RGB for this purpose. There have been much debate between manufacturers as to the aspect ratio specifications of the HDTV designation, and it is now recognized that a true HD set will provide widescreen 16:9 aspect screen
."

Okay, from my understanding, do I need to buy an external set-top decoders in order to bring the best out of my HD-ready TV? If so, where can I get one? How much?
silkworm
post Feb 3 2005, 08:21 AM

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There's no point in getting a set-top decoder because there are no stations in Malaysia broadcasting HDTV programs over the air, not even Astro.

There is another "black box" called a video processor aka scaler. This expensive bit of kit (about RM5K) up-scales normal television signals into a HDTV format of your choice, using digital signal processing. These units use more advanced scaling algorithms than 100Hz/DRC/Giga/(insert buzzword here) used in TVs, so image quality ranges from good to excellent. The large amount of processing required will introduce some lag, so gaming isn't a good application for it.
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post Feb 7 2005, 10:17 AM

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HDTV @ Wikipedia
Jinsatoemo
post Feb 11 2005, 10:34 AM

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QUOTE(xbizkit @ Feb 2 2005, 06:32 PM)
I'm using Sony (Model:KV-DA29M61), HD-Ready TV with Sony Component cable somehow I can see a fade ring in the middle of the screen while playing GT4 in 1080i mode, size sligthly bigger than a CD. It is exceptionly obvious when running on open space.
I
*
I'm using the same tv too but I haven't noticed the ring effect so far.Running GT4 in 1080i and it's looking super awesome,very clean and sharp although alot of shimmering.Xbox's Soul Calibur 2 also looked damn nice in 720p mode but jaggier in 480p mode shakehead.gif .It looked alot more better in normal interlaced image on my previous wega than in 480p mode.Also alot of ps2 and xbox games looked much more better in normal interlaced image(using component input) than using 480p.Most of the games just looked uglier in 480p mode.720p and 1080i games are the way to go for good looking games.Just my thoughts tongue.gif
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post Feb 12 2005, 12:49 PM

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Theoretically, 720p should look much nicer than 1080i... so that's the mode you should look for in your game settings. Anyone got GT4 to run in 720p?
giga97
post Feb 13 2005, 10:56 PM

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AFAIK PS2 only capable to do 480P only, right?If i not mistake PS2 is a product around year 2000 where HDTV specification still not spread wide that time.

1 minutes HDTV with 720P take around 50++MB, you can download some trial from http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsme...ntShowcase.aspx

That is a HDTV patern generator in my factory, the 1080I quality is superb even though in a regular TV SET(yup, regular TV CRT + special electronic circuit board.)

But please take note that, so call digital TV broadcast is not free.We may need to pay for it just like Astro.

This post has been edited by giga97: Feb 13 2005, 10:59 PM
xbizkit
post Feb 15 2005, 07:13 AM

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QUOTE(giga97 @ Feb 13 2005, 10:56 PM)
AFAIK PS2 only capable to do 480P only, right?If i not mistake PS2 is a product around year 2000 where HDTV specification still not spread wide that time.

1 minutes HDTV with 720P take around 50++MB, you can download some trial from  http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsme...ntShowcase.aspx

That is a HDTV patern generator in my factory, the 1080I quality is superb even though in a regular TV SET(yup, regular TV CRT + special electronic circuit board.)

But please take note that, so call digital TV broadcast is not free.We may need to pay for it just like Astro.
*
But somehow GT4 able to do 1080i mode,wonder why?
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post Feb 15 2005, 08:41 AM

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that is why Polyphony Digital manage to unlock the holy grail of the PS2

No one say that PS2 can only produce 480p. unless they(games developer) really do their homework, i think their games can be displayed in 1080i too
silkworm
post Feb 15 2005, 11:38 AM

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This is off-topic.
Actually, Polyphony Digital may have cheated a bit. The PS2 is framebuffer limited. With only 4MB of VRAM, it's not possible to fit 1920x1080x24bit double-buffered frames in it (you'd need about 6MB for a single frame of 1920x1080x24bits). It's believed that for GT4, Polyphony rendered internally at 720x480, or maybe 720x540, then used some mixture of scaling to achieve the final 1920x1080 resolution on the TV. It's still a remarkable feat, but expect to be blown away with the next-gen consoles and true HDTV support.

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