something that is hard to accomplish does not mean it is impractical. if u find going to school and doing exams hard, does it mean that education is impractical?

about the abortion point you mentioned. the thing about humans is that we are imperfect. and it is cos of these imperfections that we fall short of God. think about it.

if an individual is strongly against murder but goes on to do it anyway, will he feel better or worse than other murderers?

it is because we are humans that we find it so hard to stick to our 'religion'. thing about morals is that it often an act to bring about good that oft times go against human nature. recognising this weakness and imperfection is the 1st step in christianity

edit: ur another case of hating the game cos of the playa, where u should be hating the playa, not the game

This post has been edited by b3ta: Dec 6 2009, 12:40 AM

i cant live without it
somehow i think its boring to live without it

Maybe that's because you are exposed to it since young? That explains why?

it depends on the person itself
some think they need it, but others might just neglect it in their life

Bad example there. Doing an exam depends on skills, what we were talking about has more to do with will.
Going to school, well, I don't find it hard, and I think that's because I want to be there. It's hard when you don't want to. So in that case, not a relevant example, since I take it Christians want to but can't do it.

What are these imperfections you speak of? I see none. All I see is human rights. In a rape case, or in a case where the quality of life of either the kid or the mother will be inversely affected, I believe it is fully justifiable, and so do the liberal Catholics.

Recognising one's mistakes is certainly the first step to rehab. There is no NEED for religion to tell you that. If you feel a religion does that best for you, good for you. But since many people do not need religion to realise that, the answer to the original question is once again, no. The debate should be on the rationality of what religion deems right or wrong.

If you think sacrificing your personal satisfaction or human rights for god is worth it, because he promises an afterlife, then so be it. But since there are no evidence that god or, an afterlife, definitely exist, can you criticise those who value their current life more than this so called god?

The player represents the game, which is why the game always take action against their players for bad behaviour. After all, the players are the ones that propagate the game. Good or bad name depends on the players. If I hate a player, I won't hate the game. But if I hate the playerS, no reason not to hate the game.

EDIT: Hate is perhaps too strong a word.

EDIT2: Come to think of it, without the players, the game would be even less bearable. If Christians believe in the literal meaning of the bible, all hell would break loose (forgive the pun). It is precisely because of the players who interpreted the bible less radically that made religion seem less irrational. Though, I concede, some do make it worse.

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Added on December 6, 2009, 12:05 pmBy this, do you mean the same "can't live without it" as those who say the same about their iphones?

If not, I am interested to understand why. Is it the existential issues? Or the morality issues? If it is something else, I would be even more interested in learning them. No sarcasm, I truly am. I believe understanding religion will go a long way in understanding the human psyche. Enlighten me, please.

As for boring, I seem to think the opposite would be true. If religion is going to dictate what is right and what is wrong, leaving no room for rational explanation, then where is the fun in making difficult decisions?

This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Dec 6 2009, 12:09 PM

ur doing it wrong. my example is merely based on your statement that things that are hard to achieve are not worth achieving. in which case, is clearly wrong. something that u do not want to do may in fact be the thing that is good for u. and bear in mind that it is not an impossibility for a human to adhere to christian values perfectly.

if u see no imperfections in humanity then it's probably your adolescent egocentricism speaking. also bear in mind that on controversial topics like abortion or euthanasia, i believe that each case is different and that there is no absolute yes or no in those matters, therefore i will not be discussing those issues.

of course religion does not play a part in a person's inner conscience. however, a person's beliefs in values and morals are oft influenced by religion, from there on, it also determines how a person handles their life.

i also find that u confuse christianity with the self-centered and often selfish thinking of "oh i must do good and please God to get more credit so that i can get a place in heaven". coming from this point of view is totally off-base. Christians value this life BECAUSE of this God, and that they dont have to work their ass off to get to heaven because that sacrifice is already done. in this case, Christians should do things only out of love for others and love for God. and the things that u do out of love may often get misconstrued into "oh this dude is doing things to get a place in heaven". well, that is how it should be. im not saying all christians think like this. but i believe this is how it should be.

do not hate the game because of the playerS when u do not even know the game. afterall, why should others determine what u like and what u not like?

re: once again, some things in the bible are not meant to be taken literally. especially things in the old testament as things have changed post-christ. im not saying to totally disregard the books. it's just that some things have changed. maybe u should look into things more than at skin-deep level, then make a stand.

Wow wow, hang on. You seem to be putting words in my mouth. And there seems to be major ironies in this post of yours. I'm going to try to understand you, but since I accept the fact that my understanding is of a limited level, help me out if I get it wrong. Politely, without personal attacks, if you may.

Firstly, "things I may not want may in fact be good for me." How do I do such a thing "out of love"? If I don't want this, it is highly likely I'll want the opposite. So assuming I am not harming anyone in the process, shouldn't I do what I love, which is the opposite?

Secondly, I did not say there are no flaws with humanity. In fact, there are way more flaws in it than virtues, from my point of view. I merely stated there is nothing wrong with abortion if the case if justified. If there are no definite yes or no to those issues, why do some religion explicitly state one or the other, and claim that that is god's wish. This may be the player's fault, not the game, but it comes from the highest authority, the pope. Short of god, I believe he is the person you would turn to for 'god's message'?

Yes, people's morals and values can be influenced by religion. And granted, many good values have come out of religion, but what is to say those are from god, not from a wise old man who passed on those values?

You can't blame me for confusing the believes of Christians, since they are the ones that told me "if you don't convert to Christianity, you will go to hell." I am only assuming they converted to go to heaven. That seems a logical reasoning. Ok, I concede I have to hate the player not the game in this particular case.

Next irony. If that is "your believe," and "not all Christians think like that," how am I suppose to know the game? Am I suppose to learn what this Christian thinks then subsequently what that Christian thinks? If you don't know what other Christians think, what is to say my interpretation is wrong and yours is right? What if I say I'm a Christian and this is how I think? So you are wrong. I think I am missing something here. Please elaborate.

Finally, I know things in the bible are not meant to be taken literally (except for Sarah Palin). That is why I said fortunately it isn't. But that begs the question, what should be taken literally, and what shouldn't? And who is the authority on this?

EDIT:
Please let me know how I can know the game better. I take it church would not be a good place to start considering the players themselves don't know what the game is.

"afterall, why should others determine what u like and what u not like?"
This though, is my favourite part of all your posts. I am a staunch libertarian, believing that everyone deserves their own rights and liberty. Which leads to the main problem of religions: Why do they tell you what to do? Should it not be our choice? Why tell me I should not drink? Why tell me I should pray? Why tell me I need to go to church? Would it make me a lesser person if I'm doing something I like and that something happens to be contrary to the church's believes (assuming it is not harming anyone else)?
Note: not referring specifically to Christianity in all those cases.

By the way, the spread of religions are through people, missionaries, aka, players. If the players caused my misunderstanding of the game, it is hardly my fault. If I am misled by the players, who knows how many others are? Perhaps even some converts too?

This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Dec 6 2009, 09:22 PM

U can said whatever you wan b3ta, but the fact is that most christians are doing things for a place in heaven...Nothing went wrong with religions, Just people in fact >.< Sometimes i think atheism and agnosticsm are not intend against the GOd, but the people who believe in it

You may right there. I am an atheist, and I have nothing against god, if he exists. I merely cannot accept what religions preach. And since religion, as far as I know, is created and spread by people, people is the problem, not god. God is innocent.

go watch cannibal holocaust. then you know why people need god..

agree with u. These religious ppl dont realize that when they are born in buddhism background they find other religion not making any sense. Same goes for the muslim where they find Christianity dont make sense and vise versa.


I just find those who are very devoted to religion have lack or rationality. They cant seemed to handle logic and very emotion well.

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Added on December 8, 2009, 11:45 ami dont get ur point. u see ppl eating other ppl ? or are u claiming that ppl arent eating other ppl because of god ?


from cannibal holocaust they eat others for food .( to stay alive ) But religion on the other hand go on mass killing because of different opinion.


Almost all the war occurring here are due to religion and believe. Do u think the Palestinian war will be occurring if israel was a muslim country ?



Religion caused delay in advances in technology. Religion are the main cause malaysia are not doing well economically.


and the funny thing is that i nvr seen an atheist raping kids but try googling priest molesting or priest raping see how many pages pop up

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Added on December 8, 2009, 11:50 amU trust god without any basis and u expect us to do the same and trust u .


why do u need need god? subconsciously tell urself that its ok god will protect u and feel better where the actual situation u r on ur own dude.


Owh i didnt study for exam today, i pray god will help me in the exam . Do u think this will change the outcome ?


Or ooops i forgot to mix enough water sand ratio in the cement . Pls god, make this cement strong i dowan to get into trouble when this building breaks.



existence of god dont change anything. Why do u keep telling urself things can change miraculously ?




Grow up

This post has been edited by akidos: Dec 8 2009, 11:50 AM

People need religion because it should provide a standardize way of living morally that does not change with the change of time.

i think some people can go crazy if they hav no religon to turn too

go watch 9/11 and u'll see why ppl dont need god.

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Added on December 8, 2009, 2:58 pmReligion have different standards between themselves.

This post has been edited by maranello55: Dec 8 2009, 02:58 PM

im sure u have a mind of your own. the important thing is that the teachings sit well with your conscience.


if that is the case, then it's regretful, for that is not how i see how we should live. then again, it's useless arguing on the net. mere words can rarely change people's perceptions, if they aren't willing to observe from different POVs

i heard before someone say christian deserve to go heaven and buddhist go hell?Does it make sense?

b3ta,

However, the bible did mention homosexuals. Then again, like you said, it could be interpreted differently.

I must say though, your view of Christianity seems quite different from many other Christians. If all Christians think as you do, I wouldn't have qualms with them. But that still does not validate your point about hating the player, and not the game. This is because, like I mentioned before, religions are spread by people, the believers. The bible, churches etc are written and preached by people. Many have different views from you, so what is to say who is right and who is wrong? Telling me to study the game isn't an appropriate defence. How do you know I have not read the bible? How do you know I have not read about the history of the religion? Talked to other Christians? And the thousands of different Christian denominations. Which one does your views belong to? If I am misguided by Christians I can only assume those Christians were misguided too. In the case of religion, I'm afraid to say, the game is the players. Because the players are what spreads the religion.

I realise it is the different interpretation of the religion which have spurred the formation of these different denominations. So is there really one Christianity? Did you know, by speaking for Christianity, you are in fact including the Catholics?

dont all buddhists go to hell? i mean, they burn hell notes n cars n stuff for ppl in hell right? correct me if im wrong
the really 'power' ones go to nirvana but that's just...well..that's nothingness basically. right?

This post has been edited by b3ta: Dec 10 2009, 07:53 PM

b3ta,

I only hope all believers think like you do. And I hope the freedom includes the freedom to NOT believe.

So I guess there is nothing left to say on that point. However, my stance on the initial question still remains. Humans do not NEED religion to survive. After all, I can attain joy and freedom without believing in the existence of god, or embracing a religion.

Don't get me wrong, if religion works for you, believe it. I don't deny the existence of god either. I simply believe I can understand life and things in it without bringing god into the equation. Hence, religion is not a necessity.

their hell is not the christian hell. its a translation error. it might be better to say all buddhist goes to after life. and after sometime they are reincarnated into this world.

the super ones becomes deity/saint and goes to heaven; the uber ones achieve nirvana and say "screw you in the rat race, i'm on the fast track now!"