Like what type of energy are they using and how they "store" those energy, and what's the "source" of those energy, et cetera

If that's possible, we won't be calling them ghost.

It would be extraterrestrial instead.

i heard ghost can be somewhat found cause they gives out EMP.

what I mean is, if we can "see" ghost (some of us anyway) and some ghosts can even be "photographed", it means that they are THERE, in some form, most probably in the form of some "energy" or something, right?

and it shouldn't be that hard to detect energy, right?

1) People seeing ghosts hardly constitutes for hard evidence of the existence of ghosts. You've pushed aside more realistic explanations, such as psychological or other related physiological phenomena. To date there have been no credible evidence of ghosts from any scientific study.

2) Photos of ghosts are also not evidence of their existence. Yet again you've pushed aside the possibilities of doctoring, optical illusions or artifacts, mechanical faults and the like. You've also ignored the propensity of people to craft elaborate hoaxes for fun, fame or fortune, or all three.

Again, there hasn't been any hard evidence of the existence of ghosts in any of the scientific studies that I've read about. There are, however, several scientific theories as to why regular people sometimes see apparitions or feel uneasy/uncomfortable/the chills in certain locations, and no, there are nothing paranormal about the explanations.

For your benefit I've looked up the equipment that typical ghost hunters use. To my surprise, most of them are pretty mundane--things like audio recording devices, Geiger counters (what?), infrared/uv cameras and EMF meters. Detecting anything with these equipment does not make for evidence of ghosts.

Fact is, people tend to pick up patterns where there are none. More so when we're dealing with things that we cannot directly observe. Notice a trend in the equipment I listed? They all measure quantities that we cannot see, hear or feel with our naked senses (radiation, infrasound, electromagnetic fields). We see faces or objects in the clouds all the time, or shadows that look like something else, but we normally don't associate them with paranormal phenomena.

Imagine a world where ghosts do exist. Photography would be a much more difficult task. Think you got that shot just right? Well think again, that ghost just got in the way again. "Put your arm on your waist. Yeah just like that. That's perfect. Looking good. Now let's just chec--Ah for f***s sake it's that goddamn ghost again."

That recording of your band's newest song? Sorry, it's ruined. "That was a good you guys. Except for the talking, could you keep it down? What do you mean you weren't talki--Oh jesus it's that f***ing ghost again. Will you just get a f***ing job already."

All scientific experiments would have to include a "ghost f***ing around with our data" factor to account for deviations of measured data due to ghosts f***ing around with measurements.

I think you get my drift.

I find your post rather hilarious, albeit logical to read XD

I think rather, measuring ghost is somewhat the wrong path to go about it.
Let's look at it, are ghosts definable? If not, how can it be measured?

While I'd say the methodology is wrong, i can't say if ghosts are definable or not XD

although we couldn't prove that these ghost or apparations are there, we can't really proof that they do not exist as well.
i agree that the psychological and mental state of a person does play a significant role in the so called alleged ghost sightings, but can we really rule out the possibility?
modern science may have an explanation for almost all of these paranormal events, but we should see it from both perspectives. probably thats why research is going on and there are many so called ghost hunters out there.
in my opinion.. given enough time.. modern science will probably be able to dissect these ghosts and soon offer an explanation.

Some of the program shown is discovery channel might no be real.

Some are boasted to create attention of the audience.

Personally, i dont believe in ghost. Though there are many ppl outside there claimed they saw or feel the ghoest. These story can be vary as each race have their own kind of ghost. Pontianak? Kuntilanak? Vampire? Zombie?

If there are ghost outside there, it might just a feint voice as shadow, AS spirit/ dead ppl dont have a physical body? i mean logically.

Still, i dont believe in that unless i saw one ( touch wood )

Seeing is believing.

The concept of ghost is still remains as a hypothesis. Until when it can be proven, nobody knows. It is now parks under system of belief in belief.

In the realm of science, we have to proof something existence and not to disproof it.

Example, Mr. A says to Mr. B, there is one invisible purple elephant in the jungle.

Mr. B : "Show me the proof of it existence"

Mr. A : " You can not see it because it is invisible, now show me the proof that it does not exist"

In the context above, Mr. B is logical to ask for the proof and we would agree that Mr. A argument is weak and did not carry much weight at all.

If Mr. A argument forms the basis of our logic, we all can say that there was a "talking table" in our house when we were young, it was thrown away after it stopped talking. Now proof that it doesn't exist. Can simply just replace the "talking table" with a "flying cup", "tooth fairy"...etc


----------

From the title of this topic, it started with an assumption that ghost exist already and how to measure it scientifically.

Obviously believers would agree that it exists and provides some equipment example of how to measure it.

And non believers would argue that no way to measure it as it does not exist in the first place.

Personally I like what the scientist Paul Davies arguments on ghost existence.

"Are we really heading to the right direction of trying to find, measure spirit existence, or in fact the so called "spirit" is actually a bi-product OR a result of another outcome".

Example, a love story book is made out of "words". However a combination of words (become sentences, paragraph) giving a "greater" meaning to the individual word itself making it so touching, lively and want to make the reader cry.

The reader would says that this book is so touchy, have spirit and really touch our heart.

This is an example of the sum of individual parts (the whole) is greater then the individual parts when there are separated.

Another example is music notes (do, re, mi). Individually they does not really touchy, but once contructed into a melody and synergize using a ton of oschestra instrument, it becomes so emosionally touching.

A "melody" is "not just a group of collection of notes" only. When "combines together", it became "something else".

Again the sum of the whole is greater then the individual parts when there are alone.


Imagine a country flag made out of 5 thousand people hat in different colour. Individually there are just one person with a hat. However, when combine together, it became a country flag.

Again the sum of the whole is greater then the individual parts when there are alone.

What Paul try to illustrate is "A super set" can produce a behaviour that is not possible to be seen in individual part.

Now ask ourselves this question, is "amoeba" (single cell organism) has spirit? Is plant has spirit?

Amoeba exibit the same reaction as human, need to eat, avoid danger and can reproduce. Does it has spirit?

Human consists of legs, hands, brains, body etc, when all these organs intact together, the sum of the whole is greater then the individual parts when there are alone.

This "super set" produce coutiousness.

The so called "spirit" is a bi-product of this super set.

Something for us to think about.

---

My apology of this long post here.

Cheers.

Not everything needs solid proof to be proven?
Like me i have felt this type of presence before? You can say its cause by tis tis tis tis that that that?

But what are the odds for such thing to happen?
Its like when cigarettes or F&N coke was around they took nearly 50years to prove its bad for health. So imagine how many lifes been taken within that time frame.

Some that really experience this never made it back to share with us.

well u may be right there. but comparing the concept of ghost to an invisible purple elephant is hardly a fair comparison.
There are a good number of people out there who have felt the presence of ghost or even seen them. Not just one or two.
In addition to that, modern science has not offer any reasonable theory to proof that what these people have seen aren't ghost.

but then, what's the significance if we are able to measure ghost?

if, we are able to successfully measure ghost, we may have more insight into how it is generated. following the step wise process of science, which include observation, hypothesis, manipulation, reproduction and inference. we may just be able to manipulate its energy and reproduce it from the insight we have gained from "measuring ghost".

Well said,and you just show that all these paranormal "science" threads can have reasonable and well thought argument in it.

"Can ghost be scientifically measured"?

The question is, what to do after you can measure it?

Everything in this world has its own measurement. Anyone agree?
I agree with above statement.
The examples, I think you can try think by yourself.
The orbit, climate, weight, energy, etc. And it is in perfect order.

And according to some theory the world is made of energy.
Therefore, everything is measureable.
If it is not measureable, it is only because the human race, is NOT YET capable of discovering "the method".
The method can be simplified in a form of formula, etc.
Every scientific discovery, of course, is "IMPOSSIBLE" before it has been discovered.
500 years ago, if we compare to now, there is a lot of impossible things made possible.
You just have to look around and see.

As for the ghost, I think there is a ghost.
Because there is visible part and there is invisible part. Within, without. Yin yang. Positive negative. Day night. Male female. Life death. Buyer seller. Employer employee. Income outcome. cause effect.
Everything has its pair.
You can't see sound but you know it is there.
You can't see ghost (but some people can), but when the moment comes, when your sense can recognize it, you know it is there.
Take note that human have limited sense compared to some animals.
So our 'frequency' is different. We cannot reach certain areas. But it is still a perfect creation.
Otherwise we would be in trouble, hearing sounds from ants, etc.

Yes, seeing is believing,
but sometimes what you see is not the truth,
for the truth is in the unseen.

You can see someone doing nice thing, helping people,
but the truth is invincible - INTENTION.
can you see intention?

Just my opinion, read it with an open mind.

Thanks

This post has been edited by marsalee: Sep 28 2009, 01:34 AM

External factors apply, y'know. Like state of mind, phobias and so forth. Now I'm not denying that they don't exist, given plenty of evidence currently lying around, but all the same I see no reason to give a nod towards the belief that they do exist. At least they haven't shown themselves or most normal people aren't able to percieve or see such things (it being outside of our capabilities to see/feel) with the exception of the minority.

Anyway, like pretty much all the things we feel, we can't actually see them. We humans create our own words and descriptions for such things.

See, it's some theory. May not be applicable to everything.

Thing is, are there even ghosts? Because if there're none, u can try and try till death do you apart, but still can't get any result.

Like, if you're looking for a nice pair of jeans, you wouldn't go to Mc'Donalds to search for it

poor reply...

you have no supportive details on your arguments, just using if.
Explain why you do not believe there is ghost? Your reasons?
Do you believe there is satan?
Can we compare ghost with jeans? What type of comparison is that?

Wahaha...

i'm well aware of the external factors.
But what i'm merely voicing is just my opinion.. and like i've said in my previous post.
i believe that it is a natural phenomenon, their existence, it isn't anything paranormal.. and given time i'm sure science will get to the bottom of it.
its out there.. we just don't know what it is..... yet.

Geez... short reply doesn't constitute to poor reply...

And apparently u don't understand that analogy neither.

What i'm saying is, in order for u to successfully search/look/find something, u need to know:
1. What is it you're looking for
2. Where to look for it
3. How to look for it.

Your retorts does not work on me. I can say i don't believe there's no Satan because simply i'm an aethiest.

What i've said in my earlier posts (that is, if u're even bothered to read any of the post), we aren't even sure in the first place if ghosts exist.

Situation A:
When a person dies (according to Christianity and Islam, and some other religion i suppose), he/she will go to hell/heaven, and spend eternity there.
Well if so, how come there'll be ghosts wandering around? (since they'll be confined to Hell/Heaven)

Situation B:
According to some other religion, a person shall be reborn after death.
(so whilst waiting for their turn to be reborn, they wander around as ghost?)

Situation C:
According to another religion (kinda forgotten if it's Hinduism or what), after death you'll be falling to a never ending hole.
(so, some point while falling, they escaped and wander as ghosts?)

Concluding from these 3 situations, whether i will see a ghost or not depends on my religion? XD


Fine, Assuming that there are ghosts around us. Assuming that they can be seen.

So how we are gonna measure them scientifically? (which is the main question here in this thread)
In terms of frequency? Voltage? pH? Power Factor?

Interesting discussion here.

When somebody spells out the the word ghost, immediately we would be able to picture the "image" of it in the head. And this image would be different pending on the culture or the religion one belief in.

Could be a beast, long hair or even a person wearing Ching dynasty suit.

Which one to measure? How could it be, aren't it suppose to be "universal" if it originated and came out from the physical body?

Most part of the cultures that the world adopting has their values, else none of these will exist until today.

The concept like remembering and appreciate what the ancestors have done is positive value. However, the practices of it varies different from one culture/religion to another. And many culture and religion believes that they still can hear us in the form of spirit.

This is the part of the culture that lead people believes in spirit.

Another part that lead people to believe in spirit is usually assiociated with the childhood.

Example, a mother tell her 5 year old son, don't go out at night, as the bad guy might catch you. You would understand that there is no way for a 5 year old to understand what bad guy mean.

The mother instead telling her 5 year old, don't go out at night for there are many ghosts out there, they look scary, and come out from no where.

Which way is more effective?

Here come the discussion of intention vs result.

The intention of the mother was good, however the result is not too good as it makes the kid fobia of something that he has not seen before.

I am not saying every mother telling the same story above. The point is we are influence much by such story while we were kids.

Aren't for many childhood, watching tv series, movies and books on ghost story were part of they life?

As a kids, when they see family members have some event remembering the ancestors, this pratice indirectly implant the concept of spirit.



When athiest says there is no ghost, the believer will come out defending it.

It is not the ghost that the believer trying to defend, but the culture and belief that one holds that they are trying to protect.

If you believe in ghost, please ask the following questions:

1) Is spirit "universally" the same or depends on culture/religion?

2) Our fellow forumer pixelsheep posted an interesting question:

[[[Imagine a world where ghosts do exist. Photography would be a much more difficult task. Think you got that shot just right? Well think again, that ghost just got in the way again. "Put your arm on your waist. Yeah just like that. That's perfect. Looking good. Now let's just chec--Ah for f***s sake it's that goddamn ghost again."

That recording of your band's newest song? Sorry, it's ruined. "That was a good you guys. Except for the talking, could you keep it down? What do you mean you weren't talki--Oh jesus it's that f***ing ghost again. Will you just get a f***ing job already."

All scientific experiments would have to include a "ghost f***ing around with our data" factor to account for deviations of measured data due to ghosts f***ing around with measurements]]]

In our shool or university time, in chemistry, biology, physics whatever measurement made, do we take in the "measurement values/results" directly or we need to ask if the ghost factor influencing the PH, voltage, the EM wave we measured?

3) Why the victims of murder case did not translate into ghost and interact to the physical would telling what is happening? This would definately help on justice.

Oh, they are forbid to do so you said, how come others can be wondering around?

The truth is out there -cue X-files music-

about these ghost things, i would say there is more important things need to be discover.

As the ghosts, we could not see them every day, day and night, there is nothing you can check to confirm. Like a biscuit, kadang2 ada.

We also could not predict where it comes from, or what is a physical values of these ghosts.

Until you can put it in the "bottle" and test it, then, you can know what it is.

But, what we gonna do after we found the physics value, turn the ghosts into a electric generator?

It is clear that skeptics will forever be skeptics until the time it hits them

Like me

Used to be same as you guys, there is no ghost, it's just an imagination of people's whose mental states are unstable

Until that very fateful night

I won't go on that since it has nothing to do with this section, suffice to say, yes, ghosts exist

Well i have my share of experience too.

surely u guys heard of like when u sleep, u sometimes feel like your body's being pressed?
i've felt tht sort of thing for alot of time XD

apparently got some explanation about it, something about blood vein getting blocked or something :/

Used to happen when i was young. My mind is awake but body cant move

me too. to ~lynn~, I think you should really read whether in Islam when people die, they will go straight to hell/heaven. Or there is another world in between.

Spiders cause the mind awake body cant move phenomena. next time it happen to you, look around for the spider. You WILL find it.

These are call believes. In malaysia certain race are force to follow without obligation.
Honestly i do believe in ghost before i felt it before at least 4 times all my life. Its something unexplainable. For no reason in a quiet place suddenly u feel chill. Then suddenly you have this feeling keep telling yourself Pls get out of the room.

Another one was a room i always entered a TV ROOM. I didnt think anything bad or scary but when i sleep there i have nightmare tat something is in the room. I woke up with chills and sweating. If someone tell you that room is haunted and u still sleep there its call scaring yourself but
I also have a friend that can see these things. When she all of a sudden just keep quiet i immediately understand

This post has been edited by aspire2oo6: Oct 3 2009, 12:04 PM

When you yourself have switched off the light, and you are the only one in the building, and then the light is switched on by itself

Then you go switch it off again, thinking to yourself that "Stupid me, I forgot to switch off the light", but as you step out of the place, the light is on again

And this repeated enough times to get the message through your thick skull "I am here and I want the light on"

"No, it has nothing to do with ghost", those skeptics would said

But if it isn't ghost, what is it?

Its not 100% ghost but its just something that cant be explain yet in scientific yet or havent have the technology to do so. But i do believe in ghost.

U havent experience it doesnt mean it dont exist. Some ppl experience it and never have the chance to come back to tell the story.

Contradictory statement

If it is something that can't be explained yet, how do you know it is not a ghost?

How do you know its a ghost? The word ghost is created by u? Its something unexplainable.

The word god created by who? Also human. Suddenly everyone born then suddenly in their mind have a word call ghost and god?

Its a believes. When our parents are growing up they guide us a method. Then everyone follow it that creates a believes.

This post has been edited by aspire2oo6: Oct 3 2009, 06:46 PM

If you are interested in true science, you would know that things has yet to be proven can not be unproven

Nah dont really believe in true science. I have felt something even science cant be proven yet. I choose what i want to believe not let some nerds trying to proof something.
Like coke and cigarette it took them 50 years to prove that its bad.

So lets if it take sciene 500 years to prove i ma die already before i know the truth.

Have u seen certain diseases even science cant heal. Ive seen certain diseases being healed using non science method. Important it works. You want to wait till science to proof it can be healed only heal meh? Die di lor

This post has been edited by aspire2oo6: Oct 3 2009, 08:47 PM

It's kinda true, you have to accept that some diseases science (still) does not have the cure.
But the truth is, every disease has its' cure.
Just because it has not been proven scientifically,
does not mean it does not exist.
Just how many percent of our brain are we using, man? Do you think we will and can know it all?

"Nothing exists until or unless it is observed. An artist is making something exist by observing it. And his hope for other people is that they will also make it exist by observing it. I call it 'creative observation.' Creative viewing." -William S. Burroughs

I think the same principle also applies to Scientist.

Now, you can try to explain the taste of kiwi juice to people who never taste kiwi juice, but do you think he will understand? huhu~

Not all diseases are supposed to be cured

Some diseases are supposed to be embedded in the hosts, like the chlorophyll in plants, chlorophyll was not in the plants in the beginning, it "infected" plants and one way or another it co-exists with the plants, and they become one

What u said is true? But for human you cant compare. Compare apple with apple not coconut and chicken

What is cancer? Cancer is something no scientific way to cure it they name it cancer. So if you are sick and u gonna die then you gonna wait the scientific take 20 years to research your cure when u have 1 month to live?
Dont compare human and plant? Are u a plant?


Another believes i seen nothing to do with ghost but the effect is similar.
I seen some family due to their upbringing when ppl want take photo they anti like hell they do not allow baby 1 year old and below to take photo.


But modern parents today u ask them how many photo they take. They have like 500 to 1000 ? Both are human but the believes are so different?

Another example ive seen you tell an english educated and non english educated. You ask do you let your young baby listen to music when 1 year old? She said huh need meh? What for?

When u ask an english educated they tell you the music is for their brain to create curiousity so when the baby grows up they absorb knowledge faster. Baby are very sensitive to sound wave that creates a habit in their life indirectly.


Do you notice its all about believes its your life you choose what do you want to believe not let believes of others choose for you.

This post has been edited by aspire2oo6: Oct 3 2009, 10:13 PM

Science is just experiments ,logics and facts.
We choose science because it's explainable or definable.
Doesn't the crappy old saying always repeat?
"There's something science could never explain"
The world have alot of mystery happenings that are usually dismiss as myths and lengeds.
Mainly just because it could not be experimented or define with science.
Same goes for peeps who doesnt believe in god and yet we still see growing number of churches , temples and mosque.

This is really going off topic.

Its true Science is just experiments, logics and facts.

The last one i have the answer for it . Its call upbringing. We live in malaysia do you think the bumi have a choice to change?
Some knows what they believe, some just do not know who to believe so they trust the so called ohmight, some because everyone do it they follow.


Even many science are myths
They need expert to reprove it. No one said science is bad but u must make sure you know the balance of life.

those "nerds" aren't trying to prove something.
experiments are going on to discover new knowledge, cures and remedies, ways to enhance our lifestyle.
imagine a world without scientist and doctors? those "nerds" are the very foundation of mankind.
if every1 chose not to believe in science and the "nerds", this world would still be in the stone age.
if it takes science 500 years to prove , your descendants and the rest of mankind will have the benefit, so its not a total lost.

if science could heal every disease then wouldn't mankind be playing god?
there are many incurable diseases in these world, most of them are congenital.. and some lay dormant and manifest at a later stage of life.
these things are out of our control...

in addition to that, i don't think there is anything called as a "non science" method, even in alternative medicine.
its a stepwise process, first comes observation, next comes hypothesis, experiment, reproducibility, inference.
every person has a choice, if they opt for alternative medicine they are free to do so.. "they don't have to wait for science to proof it could be healed"

finally, to believe in the advancement science and to believe in a different kind of existence (ghosts) differs from people to people.
skeptics tend to look for a scientific explanation.. (though there isn't really 1)
while believers think otherwise.. but it isn't fair to disregard the other fields of science.
science is such a general and broad term. it covers, medicine, mechanics, aviation, ai , etc..etc..
i myself think that paranormal science and studies hold very little significance.. however, i do believe that the other fields of science has benefitted mankind in many ways.

Excellent reply, with just a very minor flaw: You seems to think that Science and Ghosts are mutually exclusive, and totally discounted the idea that maybe in the future Science really can explain the unexplainable matters such as "Ghost", and may even be able to take accurate measurement, and in the exploration in this matter, may even make more discovery of how matter changes into energy and how "groups of energy" can be manifested in the form of "Ghost" (and even "intelligence" associate with such things)

My point is everything have its balance in life.
Choose what you should and shouldnt believe not condemning science. Like you said descendants and the rest mankind will have the benefit but imagine its you and its between life and death. Are you gonna say the same thing?
Find alternative and more prespective in life.

Let me ask you
if science could heal every disease then wouldn't mankind be playing god? with skeptics tend to look for a scientific explanation.. (though there isn't really 1)

If you dont believe in ghost? then why you believe in god? Because in the world more people believes it? Remember Balance of life.

it is a possibility that modern science may be capable explaining ghost.
i've not totally discounted the idea. its just that i feel that its of little significance.
if you've read my earlier posts. i did mention that given enuff time science would probably advance to a point where we could even dissect ghosts.

if its me between life and death, all you could do is make wats left of your life worthwhile. i would understand that... and i stand firm with what i say.
i'm a medical student myself, and i know that doctors aren't gods that can heal all diseases.
there's only so much a man could do..

i've never said i don't believe in ghost, i've mentioned before in previous post that i believe that the existence of ghost itself is a natural phenomenon.
and when i mentioned about playing god. i meant it as a metaphor. don't take it literally.

God does not play dice.
talking about possibility, before it is possible of course it is impossible.
only after it is possible people will stop questioning whether it is possible.
do we think tall building is possible?
do people years years yeeears ago think it is possible?
say hello to my friend, Time

Ek... aren't we supposed to be discussing if ghosts (if exists) are scientifically measureable?

the topic went ofcourse because it was a stupid question to begin with.

This post has been edited by teongpeng: Oct 5 2009, 02:07 AM

XD this i have to agree with

Alright to stick with the topic...

Okay, so to measure something, you obviously need that something existing in order to be measured, right?

Now before we go into question whether ghosts exist or not, I'm sure we all have heard traditional ways we could do in order to "see" these elusive creatures. I only know of two:

1) Visit graveyards/place of known haunting late at night.
2) Rub dog/horse tears in your eyes.
3) Ouija board

Frankly, I've tried all three, and the result is null. I've asked a few friends, and one of them told me this:

If you want to see them, you can't. If you don't want to see them, you can. Why? Humans have an invisible (something I forgot what he said) on their head and shoulders, that disappears when they are scared. Obviously you can't see la...

Scientifically, that is artfully absurd but I didn't want to offend him.


So before we go into MEASURING, maybe someone would like to find a way to be able to see, or at least get into a presence with the ghosts and hope they are kind enough to lend a hand in some tests to gain a measuring method.

I mean what have they got to be afraid of? They're dead.

This post has been edited by slasherbaven: Oct 5 2009, 08:47 PM

at this rate, its useless to debate as all I can say is our technology is not advance enough to measure something that our 5 senses cant detect

That's what i felt since the beginning of the thread :/
Perhaps it's time to close thread? XD

It's not technology. It's simple logic.

I mean, look at aliens. We can't prove Roswell concretely without hard evidence, but if suddenly an alien comes to you and says "Operate me!", you'll definitely find methods of operations.
No aliens, no method of operation.

Same here: no ghosts, no method of operation.


Hell yeah.

This post has been edited by slasherbaven: Oct 6 2009, 12:28 AM

Good to see that we have quite a number of thinkers among the forumer.

This topic is not a scientific question, it is actually touches the psychology (mental state) and philosophy (existence, believe).

When one believes, he acts according to what he believes.

Example, if one believes that it is gonna rain, he would bring an umbrella. It is obvious that the action would be different (not bringing) for another person that doesn't believe it is gonna rain.

-----
During middle ages (in the period so called dark ages) in Europe, people was living in confusion and chaos state and all people during the time believed in witches.

Case 1:
A town has 3 witches
The food harvest in that time was bad
2 of the witches were out of town

By using logic and so called scientific evidences, the remaining witch would be found guilty of casting the spell on the crops

Case 2 :
There was a town where the food harvest during the time was bad
A family have a black cat with injury on the left leg
The black cat when missing
A human dead body was found not too far from the area where the black cat was missing
The human body was wearing a black suit
The human body's left leg was with some injury

By using logic and so called scientific evidences, the black cat was a witch (transformed to a human later) whose cast the spell on the crops

----

We know that now the bad harvest is due to some natural fenonmenon (lack of rain, locust attack etc). During the time, when people believed in witches, a system of logic and also scientific measurement and evidences were built around it.

What is the significant of these to this topic?

The core of this topic is the system of belief in belief, the scientific measurement is merely a consequences of what is being believed.

By not looking at the core, we can easily comes out with ton of topics:
- Can we proof UFO/Aliens existence
- Can we proof ghost existence and measure them (Like this topic)
- Can we proof an invisible purple elephant existence

so on....

P/S: We won't be surprise if some forumer here comes out and say that witches do exist.

Cheers.

how does one measure things that dont exist?

The topic assumes that they do exist. The question is how to measure, please read before commenting.

At any rate, I believe its high time this thread is closed. Contact a moderator please!

This post has been edited by ZeratoS: Oct 6 2009, 01:58 PM

don`t you know that TECHNOLOGY is just ONE of many ways that thing operate??

take warcraft for example... you have undead, elf, human and org.. all operate in different ways.... some interate with things around them...

it is foolish to take what we human comprehend aboutthe world as ruler to measure the universe... though we always say look back, we`re advance.. but how?? not much

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Added on October 6, 2009, 3:34 pmchange method of measurement.. simple as that...

IF your eye cant detect infra red, it doesn`t mean it does not exist.. just that you need to change the mode of measurement.. for this case, human have no IDEA at all on what to pin point

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Oct 6 2009, 03:34 PM

The burden of prove needed is still yet to be answered: Is there exists ghost?
This thread made an assumption that ghosts exist, hence they're measurable.

I believe the discussion would be somewhat more fruitful, if we're to firstly discuss the existence of ghost.
Only then proceed to whether or not they're measurable.

agreed.... but this ghost might be being like us living in other dimensiong... you can watch the documentary by physicist in the thread i posted in massive black hole

ghost are not voodoo things... it might be science break through

Haven't read through the entire thread but I remember reading about a study about how high levels of electro magnetic waves can be attributed to many ghost sightings or experiences. Example living near high tension cables with poor shielding can lead to such effect.

Also there are also some cases that say a lot of ghostly experiences happen in areas with an abnormally high amount of other stuff(like sulfur). When these things were neutralised(or reduced) the cases reported less ghost sightings or feelings.

I only remember of cases which involve electromagnetic waves and sulfur in another case(in a basement of an old pub). Make what you will of this. I suspect many of these ghostly phenomena can be reproduced with a little suggestion.

What I find interesting is that now we have so called 'ghost hunters' that use electromagnetic readers and claim that abnormal spikes are caused by ghost while the scientist say the abnormal spikes are what cause the ghostly experiences. So what we have is a chicken or egg conundrum. You can never dissuade the believer.

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Added on October 6, 2009, 6:36 pmBTW this is supposed to be a science thread so try to explain things with logic and rationalism. And I don't like how the thread is started with the supposition that ghosts exist.

This is where I would like to point out that many of these ghost experiences can be measured as they have high correlation to areas with those instances as I have explained above.

This post has been edited by frags: Oct 6 2009, 06:42 PM

Is it in the power of the moderators to edit the first post, so as to somewhat salvage this thread?

Because I feel most of us here have opinion, but what this thread lacks is just a direction.

I'd propose that we first discuss on the existence of ghosts

before that, let us define ghost... most of peoples definition of ghost is that there are being who passed away from human and remain in earth realm..

some might call them ghost, spirits, zombie, jin, orang minyak, guardian of things, demon etc etc.. every culture has their own name and looks and characteristics...

however, I used to have a friend who claimed that he has the ability so see ghost... from our conversation, they looked like shadow.. blurred... like human, some are good, some are bad...

the question here... how come some people are able to see them while other are not able to?

Few questions you've posed there my friend, I'd respond to the first one, so that we can have a direction

So therefore, ghosts are beings of which does not belong to the living world, which is neither living nor dead, but somewhere in between.
That they are incapable of physical contact/detection/communication/reproduction, but yet they have some form of qualities of which can define their existence.

Is this statement agreeable? Pardon me I'm expressing my opinion. I'm not exerting my beliefs unto any of you

i like lynn's idea.

Yes, I'm also wonder whether it's true or how is it possible for certain people are able to see ghost...
Any forumer have any explanation on this?

I do believe that ghost can be scientifically proven.
Bare in mind that in my understanding, ghost isn't the spirit of the dead.
Ghost = Jinns.
Made of fire.
With the correct technology, scientists can detect their presence..

before we say ghost is dead, I think till today, scientist still haven find the correct definition for ALIVE.....

1) Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.

2) Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.

3)Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.

4)Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.

5)Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.

6)Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.

7)Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms


this world mean what? this earth? this dimension? out time frame? universe? soalr systems??

I really hope you`d watch this vid

http://www.tom365.com/movie_2004/html/7152.html

it explain how our universe interact with other dimension and universe

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Added on October 7, 2009, 8:51 amaccording to Islam....

i don think FIRE is the correct word.... but light...


This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Oct 7 2009, 08:51 AM

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean.
Are you saying the possibility of measuring ghosts, or at the very least, determining their existence without the use of technology but by some other means?

Ghost = Jinns is just one of the many beliefs of how we define ghosts.
I believe, as Awakened Angel, that this is mainly the belief of Islam.
The Western world believes that ghosts are transparent creatures of the dead.
The Chinese believe that ghosts come in many shapes and sizes, but you have to be gifted (or "unlucky") to be able to see them.

Interesting. What might your definition of ghost be then if not dead?
Your answer would lead to the clarification of you stating the fact of an unknown definition for alive, hopefully.

If I may ask, why light?


I know a person who -claims- to be able to see ghosts, and I got interested so I began asking a lot.
In the end, found out it was a farce. Ugh.

In all seriousness though, I really do want to see them, if they exist.
If they exist, they're around us, I bet? Wouldn't it be cool to be able to interact with them?

________________

Like I said before, instead of finding ways of measuring as of yet, we have to know how to initiate their presence.

Another thing to think about is that ghosts have existed for hundreds of years. I find it really strange that no one bothered to clarify and prove their existence.

Also, why are we living creatures doing all the bother? If they can see us, I'm sure at least one of the thousands would somehow or rather make an appearance. And if an agreement is made somehow, it can go public and the world gains another important knowledge.

Think about it.

This post has been edited by slasherbaven: Oct 7 2009, 12:09 PM

Nice. We need definitions like this

However, these definitions only define (as you've said, to a certain extend) Living Beings.
A subject that do not fulfill all of these definitions may not be alive, but not necessarily be a ghost neither.
For example, if the subject is dead, it'll not fulfill any of the above. But yet is it a ghost? I'd say no, because it's just another dead thing.

you read on stephen hawking ang you`ll LUAO as he link ship and other object that fulfill the 7 criteria

Very nice indeed.

Wiki has plenty of definition on ghost/spirit, so not gonna repeat here.

Need to establish some form of understanding.

1) If a word has been defined in anyway (sciences, culture, wiki), it means an "object" has been labeled with certain characteristic for communication purposes. The key point here is it doesn't necessary means that such object exists.

E.g. A flying cup, a dragon ..or.. spirit

2) Belief in the existence of something doesn't automatically means it is true.

E.g. A believer in the flat earth theory does not know whether the earth is flat, however he believes it is.

Hope this will throw in more meaningful discussion.

Cheers.

When u tend to term it scientifically measurable you are already tryin to do the impossible.
What type of units your gonna categorize it under in first place? ^.^
My first statement wasnt off topic but juz to remind u that u are hitting on something impossible.

that`a the problem of modern science now.... what ever does not exist now is IMPOSSIBLE..

did NEWTON knew what unit he is going to use before he discover gravity??

did Watt knew that he will discover power??

did Joule knew he was going to discover work??

many past scientist took the chance and venture into impossible...

NOW is the age of add on... never again on discovery... in media people always boast on discovery.. invention... those are not inventions...

adding on features on HP is not invention... but add on...

When that apple fell on Issac Newton, he believed that something must have caused the apple to fall down, instead of flying up, so he acted according to what he believed and many years later he introduced the law of gravity to the world.

Just because one assumes something does not necessarily make that assumption false.

No issue with that

Back to the topic again, my apology as it is going to be quite long.

Many of us familiar with the quote by philosopher Descartes "I think, therefore I am" where consciousness is the awareness and the executive control system of oneself.

He emphasis the dualism concept where there are two kind of substances, first the matter, concrete stuff (body, organ, brain), second the mind or soul (the non physical stuff).

This concept often dubbed as 'the ghost in the machine', in our context, it is easier to refer it to "the soul in the body".

He has this idea that soul attaches itself to brains and control them. This concept theoretically means that when the body dies, the disembodied soul can float away to somewhere else.

This idea remains as a hypothesis in the realm of sciences as it introduced questions/challenges rather then solving the misery of existence itself.

Q1
Human activity/behavior can not be explained in the matter of concrete stuff (organ, brain activities). We need to push it back one level up to explain "the driver" i.e. the soul, how it works, what laws it obeys, so on and so forth.

Q2
Where the soul comes from? Who supplies it?

Here comes the religions and cultures explanation.

Q3
How the soul glues itself to the body? Does it attaches itself to all of the brain atoms, or some small parts of it or just one part?

Q4
What is the size of the soul? And what shape?

Example, it a boy dies at the age of 10, does the soul also at the age of 10, same size, same age? What if he dies naturally at 80, the soul becomes an old man?

Q5
At what state the soul is injected (let assume) in a baby? Immediately, one week, 9 months, somewhere in the middle?

Medical research discovered that, when the important organs developed, babies start to have consciousness.

Q6
When somebody lost an arm, does the soul lost an arm too?

Q7
For an old man with memory problem, be it short term or long term. When he dies, does his soul also experience memory problem?

If this is true, the soul would not be able to remember what religion he believed in, if he has one.

Q8
Observation from animals suggest that they have consciousness too.

Example, in the jungle, a group of wolfs will form a wolfs pack attack to a target deer. They are aware of their own existence, the other wolfs existence and the deer existence. They statregies and plan the attack in an army way, left, right, centre which will usually yields a better success rate.

Does wolfs have soul too?

Since we are not able to find the answers to this as yet, one of the scientist sum it up in the following paragraph:

You know, it’s a very curious thing about the self, that it is a paradoxical mixture of something which is unchanged with time and something that changes with time. If you ask, ‘Are you the same person you were at the age of ten?’ well, in one sense you are; there’s a continuity of memory, certain personality traits remain unchanged, and so on. On the other hand, you are clearly not exactly the same person. Not only has your body changed but your mind has changed as well. So there is something that we like to call the ‘self’ which is preserved intact through time, and yet something in there is changing, too. So I don’t think we are ever going to understand what we mean by the self without understanding the psychology of temporality and the puzzle of the sensation of the flux of time.

Ah alright, I understand your direction now. One disease, two ways of curing.
It's true, technology isn't the answer for everything, but there has to be an explanation, an answer somewhere. Even so, why has there not been an answer to as to the existence of ghosts? You might repeat there hasn't been any methods found, but it has already been hundreds of years. Ghosts can be a wonderful discovery, yet the discovery is never taken seriously. Why.

Yes I understand, but.. alright, if you're questioning if ghosts are not dead creatures, what else could they be?
People living in the same space as us but in alternate dimension?

Are you calling Allah a ghost?

Because the existence of cosmological object is the production of a string of scientifically logic assumptions. At least, I think so.

Ghosts, though, the idea of ghosts is very vague.
What are ghosts? They are the spirits of the dead. Why can some see them and some can't? It's possible the some who sees them lie. What are the attributes of ghosts? They are only available in certain place and/or with certain conditions. How do we go to the places, or achieve the conditions? We do so and so.
Like I said before, I've tried three popular "so and so" methods to see ghosts, but alas, to no avail.

An end is always a new beginning.


=EDIT=
nice.rider, I love your posts.

This post has been edited by slasherbaven: Oct 7 2009, 09:59 PM

o no >.< The topic travels from Earth to Sedna.

Sorry, but I've always felt answering a question with another question isn't the best way to justify oneself.
Let us view the fallacy of your viewpoint, and hence compare here:

1. Newton realises there's cause for things to fall. (So far, realisations of ghost only occurs to a minority group of people)
2. He then conducts experiment as to why things fall. (There've been experiments trying to detect ghosts as well)
3. Results of his experimentation concluded there exists a gravitational force. (Still no results from here).

The main difference here is item no.1, the realisation of the subject. Things fall, it's imminent/obvious/real.
Ghosts, on the other hand, is not.
Thus there're still difficulty in trying to gauge something which might/might not exist. Which is why I propose that we'd firstly discuss whether or not ghost exists.

Your string of questions are heavily based on the idea of souls.
Assuming if it is the brain/grey matter that ultimately controls the body, the idea of souls will fall.

That being said however, your idea/opinion here is not necessarily wrong. I accept it if you strongly about it, as it is failure on my part to prove my standpoint here (i.e. brain activity) as I do not know much about it. An opinion is all I have

Whichever way I read your message, an image still comes across vividly, that you are looking from a different viewpoint.

"Realises" is a word.

"Believes" is another word.

One looks at an incident and see it as a realisation.

Another looks at the same incident and believes.

The only difference is perspective, as the incident, and what taken place next, are all the same.

I thought ghosts, spirits etc......are just state of mind?

Thx, just like to throw in more ideas for further discussion

Believe both of us were referring to the same thing. Yes, I mentioned a lot about soul, however, if you read between the lines, those questions were indeed challenge the concept of soul rather than supporting it.

The dualism concept (body and soul separation) introduced more questions/challenges rather then solving the misery of existence itself.

What I tried to illustrate is, should the concept of soul fall, something new to think about and another direction may be needed to the idea of ghost existence.



Back to the topic again.

There is one logical thinking on reasoning, the Occam's razor. It sounds like this:

"when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."

Or, the simpler explanation is always the better explanation to a problem.

In the quest of looking for why consciousness exist, there are a few theories:

A) Soul/Spirit drives the consciousness
- Like what mentioned in the previous post, to agree with the dualism concept (body and soul separation), one needs to believe that spirit/soul/ghost exists despite there are no hard evidences
- One needs to believe and rely in religion to answer the question (Where the soul comes from? Who supplies it? And also which religions?)
- There are a lot of questions remain unanswered to the idea of spirit (I posted some earlier), one needs to have faith to continue to believe that those questions were bounded by human limitation on comprehension of the real world, and religion is the only way to be taken as the highest priority

B) The sum of individual parts (the whole) is greater then the individual parts when there are separated
- Imagine a country flag made out of 5 thousand people hat in different colour. Individually there are just one person with a hat. However, when combine together, it became a country flag
- Music note when separated is merely a single note, when constructed into a melody and synergize using a ton of orchestra instrument, it becomes so emosionally touching
- A book is not just about a collection of words. With single word alone, it is not much impact. However, when group together became a book, it is so powerful and emotionally attached to the reader. A typical example is the holy book itself.

The list continues..

Examples above show that when a few components integrated together, it exhibits a new behavior/attribute that is unseen when the components are separated. When "combines together", it became "something else".

Using a baby as a more relevant example, as mentioned in previous post, when important part of the organs in the baby are developed in the mother, babies start to have consciousness.

Do we need the injection of soul/spirit to explain this consciousness behavior?

This is like an objective questions in primary school, choose between A or B above?

Another example that everyone here can relate to is the computer virus.

Although it is not an organic compound (cannot pee, pass motion, eat, no hydrogen atom and so on) it exhibits the following behaviors:
- Reproduction, trying to spread the species as wide as possible (aren't this look like living orgism?)
- Can wait and attack when env and time are suitable (looks like a real bacteria to me)
- Taking resources from the host, trying to take control to the host (like parasite)

One day, probably happened already, I don't know, a computer virus is telling the rest of it kinds:

Wow, our existence is unbelievable, we have so nice environment to live with. There must be a "virus soul" in each of us that drive our consciousness. Let's start up a post called "Can virus soul" be scientifically measured?" and asked our fellow forumer