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Science Can ghost be scientifically measured?

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~lynn~
post Sep 26 2009, 10:31 PM

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QUOTE(pixelsheep @ Sep 26 2009, 07:45 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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I find your post rather hilarious, albeit logical to read XD

I think rather, measuring ghost is somewhat the wrong path to go about it.
Let's look at it, are ghosts definable? If not, how can it be measured?

While I'd say the methodology is wrong, i can't say if ghosts are definable or not XD
~lynn~
post Sep 27 2009, 01:45 PM

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but then, what's the significance if we are able to measure ghost?

~lynn~
post Sep 28 2009, 05:42 PM

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QUOTE(marsalee @ Sep 28 2009, 12:37 AM)
Everything in this world has its own measurement. Anyone agree?
I agree with above statement.
The examples, I think you can try think by yourself.
The orbit, climate, weight, energy, etc. And it is in perfect order.

And according to some theory the world is made of energy.
Therefore, everything is measureable.
If it is not measureable, it is only because the human race, is NOT YET capable of discovering "the method".
The method can be simplified in a form of formula, etc.
Every scientific discovery, of course, is "IMPOSSIBLE" before it has been discovered.
500 years ago, if we compare to now, there is a lot of impossible things made possible.
You just have to look around and see.

As for the ghost, I think there is a ghost.
Because there is visible part and there is invisible part. Within, without. Yin yang. Positive negative. Day night. Male female. Life death. Buyer seller. Employer employee. Income outcome. cause effect.
Everything has its pair.
You can't see sound but you know it is there.
You can't see ghost (but some people can), but when the moment comes, when your sense can recognize it, you know it is there.
Take note that human have limited sense compared to some animals.
So our 'frequency' is different. We cannot reach certain areas. But it is still a perfect creation.
Otherwise we would be in trouble, hearing sounds from ants, etc.

Yes, seeing is believing,
but sometimes what you see is not the truth,
for the truth is in the unseen.

You can see someone doing nice thing, helping people,
but the truth is invincible - INTENTION.
can you see intention?

Just my opinion, read it with an open mind.

Thanks
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See, it's some theory. May not be applicable to everything.

Thing is, are there even ghosts? Because if there're none, u can try and try till death do you apart, but still can't get any result.

Like, if you're looking for a nice pair of jeans, you wouldn't go to Mc'Donalds to search for it
~lynn~
post Sep 30 2009, 04:08 PM

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QUOTE(marsalee @ Sep 29 2009, 02:53 AM)
poor reply...

you have no supportive details on your arguments, just using if.
Explain why you do not believe there is ghost? Your reasons?
Do you believe there is satan?
Can we compare ghost with jeans? What type of comparison is that?

Wahaha...
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Geez... short reply doesn't constitute to poor reply...

And apparently u don't understand that analogy neither.

What i'm saying is, in order for u to successfully search/look/find something, u need to know:
1. What is it you're looking for
2. Where to look for it
3. How to look for it.

Your retorts does not work on me. I can say i don't believe there's no Satan because simply i'm an aethiest.

What i've said in my earlier posts (that is, if u're even bothered to read any of the post), we aren't even sure in the first place if ghosts exist.

Situation A:
When a person dies (according to Christianity and Islam, and some other religion i suppose), he/she will go to hell/heaven, and spend eternity there.
Well if so, how come there'll be ghosts wandering around? (since they'll be confined to Hell/Heaven)

Situation B:
According to some other religion, a person shall be reborn after death.
(so whilst waiting for their turn to be reborn, they wander around as ghost?)

Situation C:
According to another religion (kinda forgotten if it's Hinduism or what), after death you'll be falling to a never ending hole.
(so, some point while falling, they escaped and wander as ghosts?)

Concluding from these 3 situations, whether i will see a ghost or not depends on my religion? XD


Fine, Assuming that there are ghosts around us. Assuming that they can be seen.

So how we are gonna measure them scientifically? (which is the main question here in this thread)
In terms of frequency? Voltage? pH? Power Factor?


~lynn~
post Oct 2 2009, 10:45 PM

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QUOTE(4Atulan @ Oct 2 2009, 04:40 PM)
It is clear that skeptics will forever be skeptics until the time it hits them

Like me

Used to be same as you guys, there is no ghost, it's just an imagination of people's whose mental states are unstable

Until that very fateful night laugh.gif

I won't go on that since it has nothing to do with this section, suffice to say, yes, ghosts exist
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Well i have my share of experience too.

surely u guys heard of like when u sleep, u sometimes feel like your body's being pressed?
i've felt tht sort of thing for alot of time XD

apparently got some explanation about it, something about blood vein getting blocked or something :/
~lynn~
post Oct 5 2009, 01:24 AM

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Ek... aren't we supposed to be discussing if ghosts (if exists) are scientifically measureable?
~lynn~
post Oct 5 2009, 02:17 AM

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QUOTE(teongpeng @ Oct 5 2009, 02:07 AM)
the topic went off course because it was a stupid question to begin with.
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XD this i have to agree with
~lynn~
post Oct 5 2009, 11:40 PM

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QUOTE(Awakened_Angel @ Oct 5 2009, 09:22 PM)
at this rate, its useless to debate as all I can say is our technology is not advance enough to measure something that our 5 senses cant detect
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That's what i felt since the beginning of the thread :/
Perhaps it's time to close thread? XD
~lynn~
post Oct 6 2009, 04:14 PM

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QUOTE(Awakened_Angel @ Oct 6 2009, 03:32 PM)
change method of measurement.. simple as that...

IF your eye cant detect infra red, it doesn`t mean it does not exist.. just that you need to change the mode of measurement.. for this case, human have no IDEA at all on what to pin point  wink.gif
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The burden of prove needed is still yet to be answered: Is there exists ghost?
This thread made an assumption that ghosts exist, hence they're measurable.

I believe the discussion would be somewhat more fruitful, if we're to firstly discuss the existence of ghost.
Only then proceed to whether or not they're measurable.


~lynn~
post Oct 6 2009, 08:26 PM

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QUOTE(frags @ Oct 6 2009, 06:33 PM)
Haven't read through the entire thread but I remember reading about a study about how high levels of electro magnetic waves can be attributed to many ghost sightings or experiences. Example living near high tension cables with poor shielding can lead to such effect.

Also there are also some cases that say a lot of ghostly experiences happen in areas with an abnormally high amount of other stuff(like sulfur). When these things were neutralised(or reduced) the cases reported less ghost sightings or feelings.

I only remember of cases which involve electromagnetic waves and sulfur in another case(in a basement of an old pub). Make what you will of this. I suspect many of these ghostly phenomena can be reproduced with a little suggestion.

What I find interesting is that now we have so called 'ghost hunters' that use electromagnetic readers and claim that abnormal spikes are caused by ghost while the scientist say the abnormal spikes are what cause the ghostly experiences. So what we have is a chicken or egg conundrum.  doh.gif  You can never dissuade the believer.


Added on October 6, 2009, 6:36 pmBTW this is supposed to be a science thread so try to explain things with logic and rationalism. And I don't like how the thread is started with the supposition that ghosts exist.

This is where I would like to point out that many of these ghost experiences can be measured as they have high correlation to areas with those instances as I have explained above.
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Is it in the power of the moderators to edit the first post, so as to somewhat salvage this thread?

Because I feel most of us here have opinion, but what this thread lacks is just a direction.

I'd propose that we first discuss on the existence of ghosts smile.gif
~lynn~
post Oct 6 2009, 09:35 PM

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QUOTE(Awakened_Angel @ Oct 6 2009, 09:07 PM)
before that, let us define ghost... most of peoples definition of ghost is that there are being who passed away from human and remain in earth realm..

some might call them ghost, spirits, zombie, jin, orang minyak, guardian of things, demon etc etc.. every culture has their own name and looks and characteristics...

however, I used to have a friend who claimed that he has the ability so see ghost... from our conversation, they looked like shadow.. blurred... like human, some are good, some are bad...

the question here... how come some people are able to see them while other are not able to?
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Few questions you've posed there my friend, I'd respond to the first one, so that we can have a direction smile.gif

So therefore, ghosts are beings of which does not belong to the living world, which is neither living nor dead, but somewhere in between.
That they are incapable of physical contact/detection/communication/reproduction, but yet they have some form of qualities of which can define their existence.

Is this statement agreeable? Pardon me I'm expressing my opinion. I'm not exerting my beliefs unto any of you smile.gif
~lynn~
post Oct 7 2009, 01:32 PM

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QUOTE(Awakened_Angel @ Oct 7 2009, 08:49 AM)
before we say ghost is dead, I think till today, scientist still haven find the correct definition for ALIVE.....

1) Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.

2) Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.

3)Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.

4)Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.

5)Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.

6)Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.

7)Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms
this world mean what? this earth? this dimension? out time frame? universe? soalr systems??

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Nice. We need definitions like this biggrin.gif

However, these definitions only define (as you've said, to a certain extend) Living Beings.
A subject that do not fulfill all of these definitions may not be alive, but not necessarily be a ghost neither.
For example, if the subject is dead, it'll not fulfill any of the above. But yet is it a ghost? I'd say no, because it's just another dead thing.
~lynn~
post Oct 7 2009, 11:22 PM

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QUOTE(4Atulan @ Oct 7 2009, 06:49 PM)
When that apple fell on Issac Newton, he believed that something must have caused the apple to fall down, instead of flying up, so he acted according to what he believed and many years later he introduced the law of gravity to the world.

Just because one assumes something does not necessarily make that assumption false.
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Sorry, but I've always felt answering a question with another question isn't the best way to justify oneself.
Let us view the fallacy of your viewpoint, and hence compare here:

1. Newton realises there's cause for things to fall. (So far, realisations of ghost only occurs to a minority group of people)
2. He then conducts experiment as to why things fall. (There've been experiments trying to detect ghosts as well)
3. Results of his experimentation concluded there exists a gravitational force. (Still no results from here).

The main difference here is item no.1, the realisation of the subject. Things fall, it's imminent/obvious/real.
Ghosts, on the other hand, is not.
Thus there're still difficulty in trying to gauge something which might/might not exist. Which is why I propose that we'd firstly discuss whether or not ghost exists.

QUOTE(nice.rider @ Oct 7 2009, 08:22 PM)
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Your string of questions are heavily based on the idea of souls.
Assuming if it is the brain/grey matter that ultimately controls the body, the idea of souls will fall.

That being said however, your idea/opinion here is not necessarily wrong. I accept it if you strongly about it, as it is failure on my part to prove my standpoint here (i.e. brain activity) as I do not know much about it. An opinion is all I have smile.gif
~lynn~
post Oct 8 2009, 08:10 PM

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QUOTE(4Atulan @ Oct 8 2009, 07:00 AM)
Whichever way I read your message, an image still comes across vividly, that you are looking from a different viewpoint.

"Realises" is a word.

"Believes" is another word.

One looks at an incident and see it as a realisation.

Another looks at the same incident and believes.

The only difference is perspective, as the incident, and what taken place next, are all the same.
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Erm, what I meant in realisation is that the process/experiment can be repeated and certain observations can be made.
Perhaps this also falls under the category of 'Seeing is believing.'

One can observe the effect of gravity pretty clearly; Object falls. Period.
But the effect of ghost is not very much observable.

Hope you get what I meant smile.gif

@nice.rider: Rather interesting ideas, but perhaps I'll discuss it later. Brain's still asleep; just woke up from nap *yawn*
~lynn~
post Oct 9 2009, 07:19 PM

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QUOTE(frags @ Oct 9 2009, 05:57 PM)
Seeing is not always believing. Sometimes your eyes can deceive you. There are rational explanations if you are willing to research about them.
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Likewise, the eyes might deceive one into thinking that what a ghost was seen smile.gif


QUOTE(4Atulan @ Oct 9 2009, 06:53 PM)
This is getting rather deep, I will try to take it from the beginning:

When that apple fell on Newton, what happened first?

Did Newton instantly realise that there is something that pulled the apple downwards, or did Newton arrive at the realisation later?

My personal view is that when that apple fell on Newton, he started a whole series of questions, and then he proceeded to search for answers for his questions, and in the process, he came to believe "something" is there, and the more he worked on finding that "something", the more he realised that that "something" might have to do much more than it had done to that apple, and ended up with the gravitation force in between the moon and the earth, between the Sun and earth and between the planets in the solar system.

Realisation does relate to believe, but if one has to choose in between those two, I think the "believe" stage comes first, and only after repeated positive results from the experiments, realisation follows.

Such as the topic of this thread. Can ghost be scientifically measured.

To talk about ghost in all seriousness takes belief. One has to believe that ghosts exist before one can think of "measuring" ghosts scientifically. Perhaps after repeated positive results, such as ghostly image captured on pictures, then one realise that, yes, indeed ghosts exist and might somehow be measurable and/or quantifiable.
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Ah.. I see what you're getting at now smile.gif
Very nicely argued there, friend. So in order for us to define the existence of ghosts, we'd firstly have to believe they exists.
Am very sorry though, I'm unable to provide further material for this discussion sad.gif

Perhaps my mind is still clogged with materials of a test for my stuides of which I have just taken ><

~lynn~
post Oct 10 2009, 06:01 PM

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QUOTE(darkskies @ Oct 9 2009, 07:25 PM)
Trying to bring the Newton law as a contrast towards the spiritual world is absurb anyways.
Writing a whole length paragraph of philosophy or an essay wont change any fact. It all arrives into one conclusion, you are discussing something impossible or trying to prove that u are trying the "if" side of impossible.
If it can be experiment or measured, it could already be done thousand years ago. Let alone  someone like us tryin to discuss the posibility of it now.
It's the truth that science is helpless towards the world of spiritual and it can never exceed it.
You can only believe that it existed and trying to go deep wont bring any result but just a waste of time.
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This is where you've flawed.

He argued on the level of the process of discovering something. Supportive arguments were given to relate the process of experimenting and discovering begins from believing its existence.

To a person of shallow argumentative mind, one can only look at the obvious.
Like duh! We all know there's no link between Newton's Law and ghost in any form! doh.gif

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