it obvious who is malaysia top dota player.

Top player? Kenchi ma. He can attract so many Star Players to UC Pro. No doubt that he is the top player

your solution should be what Odin say.. If your system is run what odin say... no problem would occur.
But if what you say you would seed Team XYZ rather then Team ABC... it would be unfair... as i said... Team ABC held up of the leader and 4 new player... while team XYZ is the former team ABC 4 player.. So, The team leader of ABC should give up his point what he have done so far.. (" he is the team leader") and give the current top 1 ranking to team XYZ, it's so unfair...
for more clear comparison, Team ABC = Team SK which have Loda, and 4 new recruit player, while the team XYZ = bogdan,Halo,Kwom,Akke and etc ( i duno their teammate name sorry ), so would you seed team XYZ instead of team ABC ?? as we know team ABC without Loda is nothing... so ? what would people think if you seed team XYZ but not ABC, will player obey the way you seed them ?? ( assume organizer 100% follow your seeding system )

It is hard if he using excel to doing this system because done manually would mess up alot of thing when 1 team have 5~6 data need to watch, and if team disband the point count need to summarize again.... it take alot of time...

Honestly say, this system is my Degree project, but i failed to do it.. so i hope some one would actually complete it... it's really benefit to our e-sport community.

Yeah its always unfair for the team leader and sponsor's when teams break up. However, its impossible to tie all the points to the team sponsor or the leader because some teammates might be unfairly treated or compensated. Hence, they leave the team etc.

Right now its really difficult to to gauge who contribute more to the team so I guess dividing the points equally would be fair.

SK Case Study
Loda's new team might not be seeded only if he replaces his teammates with new players in the dota scene. As for Kenchi's case where he can recruit many famous players their points would be quite high as well and I assume that the new team would be seeded as well.

The 4 members that left and built a new team and got seeded. I feel that they deserve to be seeded as well. Dota is a team game, and you cant say they are nothing without Loda. Obviously Loda would have needed them in many cases and therefore, they have done their part as well.

Conclusion, before a sophisticated system whereby points can be allocated individually according to a players performance during a competition, it is impossible to allocate more points to a player.

In my opinion, whether the point system would work or not is very difficult to be determined and must be tested for a certain period.
OR we can take a sample from previous tourneys and implement this point system and see whether the seeding is accurate enough or not.

By testing the sample, we can optimize the system so that we won't be implementing a system that is totally flawed to start with.



As for the database management, it should be transparent and cross checked by the dota community for its accuracy and integrity.
Maybe the flow should work like this. The organizers of a dota event will be entrusted with the data entry of all participants and point will be awarded at the end of the competition.

Then the "Master File" will be updated by underminer and uploaded on a website or forum for all to see. The reason for this is there will be cross checking and many copies of backup all over the world or Malaysia
Underminer should keep many backup copy of the database and named according to date e.g. Master File as at 1.1.09

Thats all for now, time to sleep already >< as the topic says since its a discussion I'm just sharing my opinion with the dota community and hopefully some part of it can be useful

Your concerns stumbled upon what all Dota rankings inherently will face : the definition of the team itself. My system will certainly run well if its all according to Odin's suggestions. However, as of to date, I already have more than 100 teams in my rankings I got from the 4 tournaments "supported" by this rankings. To apply Odin's suggestions will take energy more than what I am prepared to fork out for this community project.

Back to your example, seeding team XYZ will be taken as purely following the "3 man rule" set in posts before this. It will not be considered unfair if the rules are followed. The same "3 man rule" is used in big tournaments like ESWC to determine the legitimacy of a team so it is in full compliance with International Standards at least.

Say Loda from the former Team SK reformed his new Team SK with 4 new recruits (assuming they are fresh and not part of any other teams before), and his 4 former teammates (Bogdan and co) reformed a team call Team SK2. Unless Loda managed to get the new Team SK2 to allow Team SK to reassume the top spot in the rankings and Team SK2 starts from the bottom ; Team SK2 can legitimately alter the name of the top spot to Team SK2 and assume all former Team SK points and render Loda's new Team SK to start from the beginning at the rankings. If Loda's new team consists of 4 former members of MYM (no.2 in the rankings) Loda's new team will assume MYM's former spot and be number 2 in the rankings with a new name "Team SK".

Loda and Bogdan is assumed to know the rules of play in this rankings. If they take their rankings seriously, they should be well versed of the rankings and knew of all consequences of their actions before making them. For Bogdan and co to leave Loda to dry with their move to form SK2 may seem to be unfair to Loda who worked hard for his former team, but the rules will be followed no matter how inethical it looks from a third party perspective. To the rules, what Bogdan and co did is perfectly legitimate and the top ranking will be given to the majority of players from the old "Team SK" and the new 5 from "Team SK2" will assume the top ranking from now on. Loda will need to labour his way up from the bottom of the rankings with his newly reformed "Team SK".

A better system perhaps the degree project from baowen may have saw fruition in the form of Propowerplay rankings system adopted by Dotasg for the Singaporean Dota Scene. However after careful reading, it too fails to define how a team will be considered in the cases of people mentioned above here. My best guess is they will apply the "3 man rule" as well.

As I stressed from the beginning, this is a community project and all parties who wish to see this rankings work can contribute simply by providing the rankings more information of the teams so that it will reflect the most accurate information. If the teams themselves do not care about their own rankings, who would?

**Edit**
Just read through Odin's post and totally agree on the part of the Master File and how it should work with the community cross checking it in a transparent manner (which all the amendment suggestions will come in shortly after). Currently looking for ways to create my own site for this and hopefully it will be up by next month.

I am still not convinced that taking in individual nicks as the base of the rankings is the practical way to do. Yes, it will be successful in filtering out any discputes but the cost to implement it will be too high as this project is aimed across all tournaments in Malaysia (including Sabah and Sarawak if the organisers fulfills the criteria set for the rankings to be applied). When individuals themselves will change their nicks from game to game, it will be really a pain to keep track of indviduals. That is why my thoughts for this project is a "team based" one from the very beginning with the "3 man majority" rule playing a huge role in this.

However , I am open to all suggestions to make this ranking acceptable and as flawless as possible before it is truely implemented.

This post has been edited by underminer: Jan 6 2009, 11:30 PM

aaaaa

pls use 122 before talking any longer.

use so many system also,but cant use latest patch? ;p

create something new is always hard... to maintain the new thing... it would be more hard... i think this phrase is quite famous (sorry for the direct translation, my English standard is low)
"3 man majority" rule is a good definition for a team, but it's still not that accurate as well,
Case study time again.... Kingsurf team(lineup for ESWC Grand final in san jose), if yamateh and papaxiong remain in the kingsurf team, the remain 3 people have create a new team, would you seed the new create team name Kingsurf2 instead of kingsurf ?? because it's fulfill your "3 man majority" rule. Sound weird right?

The suggestion i will give is,
-Team A win Category A tournament, and Team A earn 9200point as a Team point.
-Team A 5 player, earn 9200point as well, 9200/5 = 1840point for each player (if the team have sub, then it divide by 6 player)
-Team A currently have Team point 9200 + Player point 9200 = Total of 18400point.

So when Team A split in the next tournament, Team A still have his Team point and would not affect too much, unless the Team A use the different 5 players.
When it come to the SK team case study, Team A still have 9200 + 1840point = 11040point, the new team B will have 7360point.

At least, the Team A would have some point, even Team A won't be Top 1 now, but at least it will remain at top 3 rank.
This is my suggestion for you to make a better point system. the point need make some adjustment, this part is a bit tricky, my maths was not good, so i think i leave it to you.

When the next tournament is going, Team A ("suppose to be rank 1 in the system"), because of change player, they become rank 3 now, if this tournament they didn't enter quarter-final, then minus their team point as penalty because since they are seeded as rank 3, they should have the "quality" to enter quarter final.

damn nice ranking system...
2 thumbs up underminer..

QUOTE(underminer @ Jan 3 2009, 07:00 PM)

can u give me the 91 list team?
or email at me?
man_lefthanded@yahoo.com
juz wan see
tQ

Noted on that point. The rankings points will now be divided into half; half of the points will consists of the owner of the name (the sponsors and the 3 players of the team); half of it will be divided into 5 for each of the players.

To make it easier to understand I will break it down to a scenario.
Team CC has 1000 points in the rankings. In this case, Team CC has “team points” of 500 and the 5 players each owns “100” points.
In the unfortunate case of players from Team CC left. The default scenario would award the “team points” to the “3 man majority” of the now defunct team. The new Team CC will be with 500+300 = 800 points where the 2 members who left will bring with them 200 points to their new team.

I would also like to add in a new rule regarding the recognition of tournaments to be counted here (thanks Killing-z2 for bringing this up):

“The minimum requirement for tournaments to be recognized and taken into account in this ranking system is whereby the first place prize reaches or exceeds RM 1,000 in cash prize.”

This rule is to distinguish a “private event” and a “tournament”. After a brief survey among the top teams, it is noted that RM1,000 is the agreed threshold where teams will actually take the time to travel to another state for and gather to participate in a tournament. While some might disagree, the fact that the cash prize money is used here as a yardstick is the fairest way to ensure the quality of events taken into account in this ranking system. The inclusion of private events in the ranking system will diminish the quality of this ranking.

To put this new rule in action, the Penang tournament announced un mygarena and the MMU Techtime tournament which will occur this weekend will not be included in this ranking system due to their respective top spot offers RM600 in cash prizes.


Upcoming events that will be taken into the ranking system pending quality of the coverage will be:


1. UTP Electronic Sports Championship (6-8 March 2009, total Prize Money RM2,800, Category C Tournament)
2. MMU GDC E-sport 2009 Grand Finale (6-8 March 2009, Total Prize Money RM2,000, Category C Tournament)
3. Shownet Dota Tournament (14th-15th March 2009, Total Prize Money: RM3,000, Category C tournament)
4. Fushion Dota tournament (11th-12th April 2009 , Total Prize Money: RM14,100, Category A tournament)


Seems like Fushion Dota Tournament will be the first Category A tournament since the SMM Grand Finals. Should be interesting to see which team can take a giant leap in the rankings by winning this one.

This post has been edited by underminer: Feb 26 2009, 11:10 PM

is that the legendary Odim from Autosurf? haha

Just a sneak peak,
UC pro will be holding a 4 season a year online tourney with cash prizes up to 2.5k per season called the "IMBALanC Tourney" with support from SMM. Scheduled to start on the 28th of March.

Im not sure if this will be added but i feel it should as it is continuous and it is only for Malaysian teams.

This post has been edited by sexbomb: Feb 20 2009, 11:13 PM

Would like to know more details about the Category A tournament. Fushion Dota Tournament is held where? Cant seem to find further details on this tournament. Anyone can enlighten me? =)

Unfortunately due to the limitations of online competitions where more often than not, the team with the better host wins, online tournaments will not be taken into account in this ranking system. This is in no way a move to disregard the significance of online tournaments which serves its purpose of nurturing young teams and plays a role in keeping teams in shape for the bigger tournaments. But for the purpose of a ranking system, to allow for non-skill related factors to interfere with the outcome of the game is not fair to the teams ranked.

Changes has been made upon receiving more input from the community. UC.PRO Tbun’ w4si’s SMM points will be returned to team “w4si” upon discussion with the 5 players involved in the tournament.

To keep the rankings up to date, I have retired “mKvL” and “Penang Ice” from the showing of the rankings. The retired teams will be shown in a different tab once the rankings are up on an official site.

The updated rankings as of 4th of January 2009 are as follows:



This post has been edited by underminer: Mar 14 2009, 03:43 PM

wow thanks alot underminer really alot of effort there

I am currently setting up my own site to house the administration of this rankings to make it more profesional. However, Eryc from Kingsurf offered to host the Excel file which I did my rankings on his site for all to download.

The link is as belows:

http://kingsurf.net/mydotaranking.zip

I will try to get Malaysia's team blogs and sites to host it so that it will spread to a much larger audience. For now, the link above is the latest rankings with rules attached to it. Hopefully more constructive comments can be made after the community scrutinize the rules.

good

so flying spaghetti monster team can join this tourney?

every season champion can join as well or will be barred?

Why do you have to ask about UC pro in particular when it is being mentioned "malaysian teams"?

Its a sneak peak and the infos will be out once its officially announced.

Anyways back to the topic:

IMHO the ranking system wouldn't be fair for teams equally as good as the top 5 teams in Malaysia if they do not have the funds to constantly travel around Malaysia to participate in tourneys as compared to those that are under sponsorship. That would mean their standings will not be justified due to the lack of funds.

As we all know Kingsurf is a great team and they have archive great heights in the DotA scene around the world. Even with latency issues they are still able to pull off great feats against the best in the world, but such achievements alone isn't justified by our Malaysian ranking due to whatever reason it is behind their lack of participation in the local scene.

Whereas with an online tourney, yes there will be some sacrifice that needed to be compensated due to latency issues however at the very least, they still have the chance to strut their stuff and earn points even if they do not make it far.

When it is as frequent as that, the scoring system really makes a different in knowing the overall standard of a team and where they stand at.

Maybe in the future you can consider 2 scoring system, with the additional of an Online system.

This post has been edited by sexbomb: Mar 2 2009, 08:38 PM

Aiyo so mahfan. If team-based calculations are messed up due to ever-changing player roster, then just implement an individual point system. Every single game, if a player is in a winning team and achieved something, setup a milestones of comparison and distribute the points evenly. Then, a team consists of any Tom, d*** and Harry will able to be seeded accordingly to their personal achieved points.

I dont think we should put it in terms of 2008 or 2009. My statement was based on Kingsurf's non participation in the tourney's that has been included in the scoring system which includes Quas, Invasion and Borneo with the only exception of the SGNDT. Whereby, it will not justify their actual placing amongst Msia's top teams if their absence due to whatever reasons persist.