Actually I would be more interested in knowing how the system developed overseas. Long ago did the pharmacists there also face the same conflict with doctors? or the same problem with numbers and logistics? If so, how was the problem overcome?

whoa... that stuff goes wayyy back!

think some of it is stated briefly here
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=A6lWNwu...num=5&ct=result

This post has been edited by mr lappy: Dec 10 2008, 12:30 AM

lols i was just debating this in IMU the other day

lol, then you might as well start typing on the history of the formation of pharmacy

Many of those "exactly what you wanted info" are readily available on the Internet. These type of info are a dime a dozen on the Internet. Please go find it yourself. Nobody owe you anything to have to go look it up for you.

And I hope not all graduate of this country are like you and expecting to be spoon fed. I find overseas educated graduate more able to find their own information, better analytical ability. May be they are less spoon fed there.

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Added on December 10, 2008, 6:24 amYes. And they are shaking their head when one keeps demanding proof and yet the type of proof he wanted is a dime a dozen on the internet. Typical spoon feeding mentality. As for the other type of proof like Health Ministry's studies on this issue before doing a trial, no, I do have that because that is considered inside information and I don't have access. I am just wondering how Hypermax knows there are none because he is implying there are none.

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Added on December 10, 2008, 6:29 amFrom what I can see, you are against doing trial. And trial should be the lifeblood of the medical profession, except when it comes to his wallet.

As for the type of proof you wanted. Please go use the Internet yourself. It may be hard to believe but they really are there. Just don't expect others to find and then cut & paste for your convenience. University education are supposed to make you able to be independent, do your own research and analysis things with an open mind.

As for "Dispensing right belongs to the doctor since birth of this country". But that is beside the question. The question should be: is there a better way and should we do a trial to find out.

Using historical justification to hold onto what you have is like saying....in the olden days, a woman place is in the kitchen so therefore they must remain in the kitchen today. See how dumb is using historical justification to continue doing thing?

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 10 2008, 06:38 AM

initially belong to the doctor does not really mean it belong to the doctor...is just that the pharmacist that time never fight for it..if not why a pharmacist is train for?4 years of training...just to sell shampoo?vitamins?

How about this on using historical practice to justify continuation of that practice in the more modern world.

During the time of Hippocrates, doctor do everything, ranging from treating the common cold to operating on the brain. So allow me to ask Hypermax a question: Who is the better person to do brain surgery? The doctor or the neurosurgeon?

If it's the neurosurgeon, why? Is it because he is the better person because he has done specialization in that particular field? Same principle applies to the passing of medication to someone who is more specialized in medication.

If it's the doctor, then what else can I say?

BTW, I have brought out the subject of specialization before but I suppose some people do not seem to know the significant of that. Or they think doctor are already god.

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Added on December 10, 2008, 8:35 amSome may wondered why I seem to know a little bit more than the man in the street about this issue. Well, there is a general practitioner (from local UM), a surgeon (from UK) and a pharmacist (from UK) in my family.

Unless someone has actually experienced UK practice, they would know very little of the role of pharmacist. Those who has only been exposed to Malaysian practice typically knows nothing. Hence my often used term "3rd world" mentality and comment about "life is cheap in 3rd world".

The best advise I can give Hypermax is, if you have the opportunity, try to got out of Malaysia and see how advanced countries operates. Work in their system. They are not called "Advanced" for nothing.


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 10 2008, 08:37 AM

lots of debate... may i ask who graduated and currently working as a doctor or pharmacist here?

Seriously, pls read my posts properly before replying. I have already stated the reason for not looking up such info on the web. Pls puncture a tiny hole on that thick skull of yours and try to understand what i have posted.

I seriously think this thread is not worth replying anymore, as you keep going around in circle. I might not have the chance to work overseas (not yet), but at least i know how to read properly before replying.

hypermax are you a doctor?or a medical student?how old are you?

your post almost always ends with a question or a short statement. you've started this thread, maybe contribute something to the discussion?

wow plenty of lovely posts i have missed over just few days.

well to hypermax, all other countries have done it in a win-win situation, doctor is doing their prescribing and pharmacist is doing their dispensing, so why bother keep saying, it is not safe, effective etc. does that means all this while, msia is right, has the best healthcare compare to other countries which allow only pharmacist to dispense.

like said, we are not turning the discussion round and round, but it is you that fails to see pharmacist can do their dispensing job as well, and might be better. I agreed that msia is still way lacking in behind, but dont generalize that all pharmacist is not worth to be given dispensing right.

besides, doctor in msia is not dispensing, they have the dispensing right, but what they do is to write a prescription, pass it to a pmr/spm leaver in the dispensary section and let them to dispense it to the patient. did they do a double check on what is dispense, right medication for right patient?, strength, dose, and instruction check, expiry date and advise on administration. the staff at the dispensary is the one that is dispensing. though i have seen some clinics, which require their dispensing staff to bring what is dispense back to the doctor for a quick glance before handling it to the patient, but majority, no.

agreed with youngkies....how many clinics in malaysia will actually employ a pharmacist?if they really think for the patients..why dont just employ one?not like they cant afford it...

Malaysia health care more advanced than UK/USA/AUST/NZ/SINGAPORE. What more can I say but frog in well mentality. Malaysia truly boleh.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 11 2008, 05:27 PM

Look, i am not saying that our health care system is superb. In fact, our health care system is lacking behind. Therefore, as i have mentioned numerous times, such change can't be done right now as our country lacks pharmacists. How can you pass the dispensing right to the pharmacists when they are even fewer than the doctors here (which is also lacking in numbers)? Wouldn't it be a chaos scene?

In other advanced countries, the number of pharmacists is greater than that of doctors, therefore, as logic dictates, it's all right to give them the dispensing right. However, the same can't be said for msia, not at the moment.

Look, i am not against such issue, but just that the pharmacists are too few in number. I do agree that pharmacists can do a better job than those SPM leavers. HOwever, it's not like we must hand the dispensing right straight away, without a proper study of benefits and flaws, and the compatibility with our health care system. Mind you, most advanced countries have centralised health care delivery system, whereas Msia doesn't.

To taiko88,
I am not answering your question until you reveal your true identity. One min you are a pharmacy student, next min you are a pharmacist with 10 years of exp. I dun feel appropriate to speak to someone who is confabulating.

To Optiplex330,
Pls refrain from being emo here. IT doesn't help in the discussion. One min you bring in bomoh, next min you bring in oracle. And yeah, we all know that Msia's health care system is bad, so stop being sarcastic.

This post has been edited by hypermax: Dec 11 2008, 05:56 PM

hypermax how old are you?are you a graduate medical student?

wow, ^ this just 'amazing' lol

@hypermax
yes pharmacist numbers are lacking. something has to stimulate the increase.

the number of pharmacist dont just go up just because we need more. mind you the course is currently 5 years to get your degree then another 3 years for your government service. all togather 8 years. and even if you do your degree elsewhere where the course could be 4 instead of 5 years, you would still need to do the 3 year service to get your licence.

if the system is not changed, i dont see anything that would encourage people to be a pharmacist.

so i'd say having something 'hard wired' to the system which promote the use of pharmacist would stimulate the increase is better instead of the just the prospect of getting increased use of pharmacist when the numbers are sufficient. this can all start with a trial in a small area or a state where pharmacist patient ratio is the best and roll on from there.

mind you, the more 'advanced' countries didnt have start with abundant numbers of pharmacist and then try to 'budge in' to the doctors 'role' as some of you might see it. they were once like malaysia.

This post has been edited by mr lappy: Dec 11 2008, 06:42 PM

In actual fact, medicines are revolving quite fast thanks to the research and advancement of technology.
Doctors however could not possibly keep up with it if you ask me, Thus pharmacist is needed to shorten the gap.

In regards to dispensary rights, there's no actual right or wrong. In a full fledge hospital even in M'sia; you'll see doctors consulting pharmacist and vice versa pharmacist advising doctors on which medicines to use.

It is only in clinics as explained above often neglected the importance of a certified pharmacist. Particularly in most oversea countries; ppl do not got to clinics for normal cough and flu unlike us in M'sia. They go to their local pharmacist for meds. If the pharmacist felt otherwise they would refer them to a doctor. However, strong medication still needs a certification from the doctors before it is allowed to be sold.

In the end it sounds like a 'chicken and egg' argument. You argue that due to lack of pharmacists we can't give them dispensing right. Others saying that we need to give out dispensing right in order to encourage more pharmacists (otherwise we'll be forever short of pharmacists).

In principle, if we want to adopt a more advanced practice then we need to adopt the distinction between doctor and pharmacist. So back to my earlier question: how can we start? what needs to change or be done to the system? can we learn from the past experience of developed nations? This should be our focus of discussion otherwise we're going round and round...

YEs, i agree we have to start sooner or later, but there are several other things we need to overcome. First, the health care system. We need a centralised health care delivery system like UK and S'pore. Also, we need to educate the public regarding such issue. I am sure at the moment, most people would want to see a doc rather than a pharmacist for minor illness such as cold.

Btw, do you know that hypermarkets have managed to sell more medications instead of pharmacies? Is is stated so in one of the MMA magazines. I'll see if i can find a scanner to upload the article here.

BTW mr lappy, you have a very valid point. We need more people like you in this discussion. Cheers mate.

This post has been edited by hypermax: Dec 11 2008, 09:46 PM