There is no big 'topic' about these things...it's mostly discussions with the other forumers here. But, FYI:

1) We don't feed COOKED chicken bones. In fact, I don't feed any kind of cooked bones to Scottie or Kenji. What they consume are raw (that includes meat, bones and organs, which includes liver as well). Raw bones are more pliable as opposed to cooked bones. Splintering and cutting through internal organs stuff probably are from cooked bones. I don't feed grinded bones either, because I follow the Prey Model diet which doesn't grind anything. Scottie and Kenji just chew through the bones (enveloped with meat) that I give them, so no issues there.

2) Raw eggs are suitable to eat. You've probably read about raw eggs causing our dogs to be unable to absorb biotin (or something like that), but that amount is very small. You would have to actually feed a large amount of eggs everyday to get to that point. I've fed raw eggs to Scottie before...he doesn't like them as much, and since it's not so much of a requirement to feed eggs, I don't feed them to Scottie which makes my job a bit easier. So, your call

3) Lamb/beef/pork bones are way too big for Scottie to consume, so I don't give him those. Best not to feed weight-bearing bones (read: leg bones) of these big animals. They are teeth-breakers. The biggest type of bone I've given to Scottie & Kenji probably would be pork ribs...but I don't feed that to them often either. Scottie & Kenji's sources of bone come from chicken, duck, turkey, fish, pork ribs, quail, and sometimes squirrel. You don't actually have to feed so much bone. I feed about 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs through time, so I don't worry so much about giving bones.

4) I have not tried replacing calcium before, so I think you need to read up on how to go about doing that. Like I said before, bones and organs are not the big percentage...meat makes up most of the Prey Model diet. Having said that, we'd still need to feed SOME bones and organs as they are important as well (even though in small proportions). I don't know which model you might be following, but this is what I've learnt from Prey Model feeding.

5) Liver is liver, whether it's from chicken or other sources. They all serve the same purpose in the animal, so what's so different from us feeding chicken liver or pork liver? Liver takes up half of the percentage in organs for the Prey Model (which means from the 10% of organs, I feed 5% liver and the rest are other organs like lung, spleen, kidney, etc)

This post has been edited by Rayne: Oct 26 2009, 10:39 AM

bout most of you guys are talking about for small breed...
anyway I didn't mean COOOKED bone, im talking about RAW actually

Raw feeding probably started getting attention here in Malaysia for only a few years, but there have been lots of people who have been feeding raw for way longer than that (I've heard of people doing that for more than 20 years, but they are overseas). None of them had any medical cases from raw feeding as far as I know. And I have known people who feed large breeds raw...all are still alive and kicking if that's what you're asking. Some have lived up to more than 14 years of age, which is quite impressive for me.

How can you really prove that kibbles/canned food/cooked food are good for dogs too? What about diseases caused by feeding kibble? There's always these kinds of questions going around. I personally haven't seen these things (chicken bones cut through intestines and what not) before, so I guess I can't comment much.

You're talking about 'what's best and what's not in raw'...it still feels the same to me. Whether we compare kibbles and raw or not, there will always be two sides to a coin. So my previous point still stands. It's really up to you if you want to feed raw or not. Nobody's forcing you to feed raw to your dog. If you strongly feel that raw is not the way to go for your dog, by all means feed kibbles. We're all just doing what's best for our dogs according to our own understanding. It's not a matter of which side is the best or not...

Since you guys are in this topic n RAW/BARF diet nd the claims on the 'best' commercial pet food.... this is from speaker who will admit that even his (tho holistic and organic) brand of pet food Addiction is not THE BEST FOOD FOR PET but will explain on the benifits of raw food and also on the rotation diet.

Maybe this talk would be of interest to you guys and also do your bit in helping the helpless animals ie animal aid organisation.

The Raw Thruth
Choosing the Right Diet for Your Cat & Dog

Date: Saturday, 31 October 2009

Time: 15:00 - 18:30

Location: Wisma Bentley Music (Above Courts Mammoth/Next to Ikea)

Street: Mutiara Damansara

Town/Country: Petaling Jaya, Malaysia

Explore the evolution of pet food today! This workshop will benefit conscientious pet owners like yourself and gives you the opportunity to examine the science behind pet food nutrition and the great controversy surrounding the benefits of raw diets. There will be door gifts* and prizes.

Participants will be able to purchase Addiction products at special event only prices. If your furkid is an Addiction user, this is an event you will not want to miss for their sakes.Tickets will be sold at the door @ RM 30.00 per pax and ALL ticket sales proceeds will donated to Furry Friends Farm other animal aid organisations. This is a good opportunity to come together as a community to do something for the less fortunate animals.

Guest Speaker: Dr. Jean-Paul

LyDr. Ly is the founder of Addiction Pet Foods, Veterinary Surgeon BVSc (Sydney), Dip. Ed. (Sydney), Dip. Bible Studies, Dip. Clinical Nutrition, Member of Integrative Medical Therapeutics for Anti-Aging and the Founder & Resident Veterinarian at Animal Recovery Veterinary Centre.

Yup, I've already gotten my ticket to the talk. But I am a bit confused about your statements though. First you mentioned that Dr. Ly will talk about the 'benefits of the raw diet', but towards the bottom you mention that 'pet owners like yourself....examine the great controversy surrounding the benefits of raw diets'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a little contradicting?

again, you see, when I am asking only raw food you got offended and take processed food and compare. for the second time you are telling me "It's really up to you if you want to feed raw or not".

Did I sound like I am defending processed food?

Because I know that processed foods got cause problems that's why I did not mention anything about it!

This post has been edited by fresh_ideas: Oct 26 2009, 03:19 PM

For the record, I never took offense to what you have posted. I guess you construed something entirely different from what I meant when I posted that. Probably one of the bad points of 'talking' virtually

The reason I say that is because I feel that we all always want to pin point something when we are not sure of it. (or maybe it's just me) True, there's no harm in finding out what is the good and bad points about something, but it will never end because there will always be two sides to a topic. That's what I'm trying to say.

The way that you're asking sounded to me like you're trying to find something (I don't know what) that might cause you to NOT feed raw. That's fine with me, but you already said that processed food can caused problems...what more are you hesitating about? The only way you can truly know is to take the plunge yourself. No amount of reading or waiting to listen to other people's opinions will change your mind if you have already set your mind to either feed or not feed raw.

So far, I have not read any scientific papers on whether we can prove raw feeding will be detrimental OR being beneficial to our pets. So, I guess there is no real answer to what you've been asking (whether our dogs' internal organs will be fine after a long feeding). For me, no one can predict the future...I might fall down and die tomorrow, so why over-think things?

I have not said that you are defending processed foods. What I mentioned was that if you feel raw is not the way to go, then you should go with whatever works for you and your dog (kibble being the popular choice). Either way, WE are the ones who feed our dogs, right? What's wrong with my statement of 'It's really up to you'? Ultimately, we as owners determine what, when and how much to feed our pets...so isn't that up to us?

My dogs dont like to eat the same food for more than 3 days.
Even with food which they like (raw Australian Lamb shoulders from tesco).
I also notice Prey model RAW/Barf can never supply all the nutrients and vitamins that comes with Ultra high quality commercial pet food (Innova EVO).

My conclusion is rotation feeding.
Rotate 2-3days randomly in no particular order of Raw Prey model, BARF, Innova Evo kibble and Addiction Dehydrated RAW.

My furkids seem to be fine so far after 3 weeks of this rotation. No runny stool at all.
Furkids are a 7 months old corgi and a 5 months old yorkshire.

I feed them raw meaty bones if i feel my furkids can crush it.
Overdosed calcium can leads to kidney stones.
Bones and marrows are more natural i feel.

This post has been edited by mecharojak: Oct 26 2009, 05:51 PM

Would raw egg cause salmonella or watery stools? I've once fed my dog with raw egg and she lau sai.

even i cannot take raw eggs.
Learn from your observation.
If raw lausai, try cooked egg lo.

been feeding Fifi(beagle) with raw since the day I posted here. More than 3 weeks maybe.

Fifi is more active now however she still shows sign of itching and scratching. Her tail has bald patch(could be fungi or excessive bitting)

Been feeding her with raw wild boar/dori fillet and some chicken liver twice a day.

Salmonella can be found anywhere...even in kibbles if not handled properly. Raw eggs could cause watery stools if your dog is not used to it. I've fed Scottie raw eggs before, but I didn't feed the egg by itself. I made sure the portion of the food he's used to is bigger than the egg portion so that he didn't get tummy upset. He never did get watery stools. But it's not a big requirement to feed eggs. If your dog can't take raw eggs, you can just omit it or feed it cooked, like what mecharojak suggested


Have you sent Fifi to the vet to check if it is fungi? Is the patch a big one? Kenji got fungal infection on his fur before, and it was not a pretty sight. He shed a lot, but after treatment, he's better now. So, to avoid major shedding, better to go check with a vet.

Since she's doing quite well after 3 weeks on wild boar, perhaps it's time to introduce a new kind of meat. Some bones will help too, coz just feeding all meat meal is not quite enough. You could also introduce other organs slowly too, since she can take liver. You can get stuff like lung, spleen, kidney, pancreas, etc.

This post has been edited by Rayne: Oct 29 2009, 12:20 AM

hi there,
Thanks for ur concern ya. Fifi's doing good now. She is HYPER ACTIVE & SLIMMER now compared to the old kibbles diet Fifi.The fungi thingy is recovering.All the furs are back.I'll be doing extra checking on her tails from now on. Fifi is scratching lesser now. But sometimes she does shed Thanks to my dad's fish/crab soup. My dad very stubborn and I need to watch him when he prepares the food for Fifi as he insisted on feeding Fifi himself. He said Fifi wouldnt eat the raw unless with some taste on it. As I told him Fifi shed a lot, he stopped.

Fifi's new favourite diet is chicken neck,chicken liver and dori fish. Her stool is chalky which is not good as she consumes a lot chicken neck. I'm guessing 3-5 necks/half dori fish & 1-2 chicken liver per meal. Can this diet use on Fifi continuously or lacking of red meat ?
My concern is Fifi DISLIKE wild boar meat suddenly Is there any suggestion ? How do I make Fifi like wild boar meat again ? Are there any boar parts which are tasty ? My dad can afford up to boar meat but still can buy some organs of pig at market..

This post has been edited by kawa_e: Nov 21 2009, 04:28 PM

How do you guys clean up after your dogs eat? I don't cut meat and bones into smaller pieces because the chances of choking is higher, so I give her the whole piece, but she just drags it around everywhere and it attracts flies. I tried spraying with vinegar solution, 1/3 vinegar, 2/3 water but it doesn't work.

Just chicken necks and some fish I feel is not enough variety, as chicken necks are too bony and has not enough meat. Dory fish is not really what I would feed too, as it does not provide the Omega 3s. I usually only feed fish that has quite a bit of O3s like sardine, mackerel or salmon (salmon VERY rare, coz it's so expensive). If you plan to feed chicken, get the whole chicken and whack it to pieces. It's not that expensive especially if you buy from supermarkets that had sale for chicken. Chalky stool means too much bone. Up the amount of meat and you should see a difference in the stool

I would also go down on liver actually...too much liver is not good at all. They only need a LITTLE bit of liver every day...what I would do is to feed a bigger chunk of liver every 4-5 days. 1-2 chicken livers is a bit too much, I think. Organs does not mean just liver. It means also things like lungs, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, etc. The percentage to feed this is also VERY little, so go easy on them.

If you feel that Fifi is ready for new variety, you can slowly introduce new meat... There are quite a lot of meat that is affordable to feed, especially during sales time. Look out for deals in the papers for hypermarkets. It's not really that expensive if you can get a good deal, and your dog is not a big breed dog I usually only spend about RM50 per month for Scottie's food, and more often than not I can get varieties like chicken, lamb, mutton, buffalo, pork, duck, beef, turkey, sardine, wild boar, etc. Of course, RM50 doesn't buy all of that, but I can get at least 2-3 kinds of meat from that list, and I rotate it every month.

If Fifi doesn't like wild boar meat, you don't have to force her to eat it...you can leave it in the freezer and try it again after a while Maybe she doesn't like it now, but later she will... Or, you could also try searing the meat a little (meaning cook the meat in a drying pan without any oil for a few seconds just to get the smell, but not cook until it's all cooked kind) and offering it to her.


You mean clean the floor, or the dog? For the dog, I just wipe Scottie's beard with baby wipes, but he doesn't drag his food around everywhere, so it's all good. For the floor, I use Germisep to clean the floor. If you are concerned that your dog will dirty the floor, you could use an old piece of cloth or towel and get her to eat only on the cloth / towel. If she tries to bring it away, you bring the food back to the cloth / towel. After the meal, just dump the towel into the washing machine

hello,
hv been feeding raw to my gals for almost 1 month. initially dont really like it but now, they just love it!!!

i started off by giving them chicken and blended vege. mostly green veges. I hv read that capsicum and brocolli are good for them too. would like to ask normally how do you all prepare the capsicum and brocolli?just blend them both and mix with chicken?

oh, btw, is garlic powder ok for them?

---

Added on November 29, 2009, 5:33 pmone more thing...for meat, so far i hv been feeding them chicken. mostly chicken wings or chicken breast cut in small pieces. should be alright? afraid of choking but we really cut into real small piece.

This post has been edited by luvdog: Nov 29 2009, 05:33 PM

Yah, blending the veggies and giving it straight is ok. I do that too.

But I think you need to give a more varied diet. Some organ meat, different meats like lamb or beef or even game meat if can find. I'm looking for lamb meat and quail but so far my dogs eat chicken, lamb, mutton and beef. Plus bones from chicken wings and neck. Just bought 2 lamb leg bones for my big dogs to enjoy.

for lamb bones, how do you feed them? just give it to them like dat or you ask the butcher to chop in smaller pieces?
now i am trying to give them beef as well but not sure if they will like it. coz they seem to prefer chicken with bones. but beef with bones seem too big la...

Oh, the bones from beef or lamb should never be cut. Coz very hard, I think dangerous if cut to small pieces. Coz my dogs are a boxer and labrador, I just give the whole leg bone, and let them chew only. After they chew till left only the middle part of the bone, then I take it and throw away coz it's dangerous if they try to crack and swallow it. I forgot what my friend told me, if you wanna give lamb or beef bones for them to eat, not chew for fun, then only certain bones can give. I believe tail bone or neck bone, can't remember. My smaller dogs, cavaliers I only let them have chicken bones. 1 likes any meat, salmon also eat. But one is picky, only like chicken but we make him eat a bit of every meat lah. We also give a bit of liver.

icic...yeah la...i am wondering how my poodle will be able to eat the lamb bone...hahahah..too big for her. i guess chicken bone will be the best for her then...perhaps i will try mince beef....

i used to give her chicken meat. but she seems to prefer chicken meat with bones. not very interested if meat alone. i hope she will be fine with minced beef. planning to buy her capsicum as well. so far have given her 'siew pak choy', celery, apple & carrot. she's ok with the vege & fruits.