there is some difference between cracking something which u didnt own and cracking something which u owned

JB iPhone is cracking something which u have the license to use the software even without JB, when u purchased iPhone the license came together with it, JB it just violating the License Agreement, did not violate any Copyright Law or Intellectual Property Law as we did not own an infringe copy of iPhone Software

But cracking Application in which u does not own the license to use is not just violating the License Agreement, but aso violating others Copyright Law, Intellectual Property Law and other law relating to it as u own an infringe copy of the software

This post has been edited by elico: Nov 15 2008, 04:20 PM

Again, i welcome crack/hacks.... It is just our debate here "why hacks is allow & why cracks prohibited since both is illegal action ".. We live in the kingdom of Mod here.. This is his kingdom, if he think hack is allow but crack is not allow.. Then let it be....

Oh ya.. last action of any debate end with hand shaking... eh.. no ICON for hand shaking 1 ah here...

oh no david.. not again..

i agree with u

@ sugen
read that up

Do u know there is lesson/class to learn how to hack in some training center, but there is no lesson to learn how to crack?

Hack depend on human moral value, which is done it for good or bad
Sometime hacking is necessary to retrieve what they been locked.
like said, a company got an important data, but they locked and forget their password,
and there is an IT company tat unlock this password or AKA Hacking service, which it is allowed
and dun forget, u even can purchase Hacking tools online
hacking Microsoft password tools that u need to purchase which it's u tell me is it illegal or not?


but Crack is really a different story
if something that u have copyrighted, u by pass it so u can use it free other than pay the license/copyright.
i dun see it is same as hack


So, Hack, whether it is illegal or not, that is depend on victim that get hacked to judge it.
while Crack is illegal all the while

taken from iphone - wikipedia;

Third party applications

The iPhone's operating system is designed to only run software that has an Apple-approved cryptographic signature. This restriction can be overcome by "jailbreaking" the phone,[123] which involves replacing the iPhone's firmware with a slightly modified version that does not enforce the signature check. Doing so may be a circumvention of Apple's technical protection measures,[124] which in the United States would be legal under special provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act that allows for circumvention for the purpose of connecting a wireless telephone to a wireless telephone communication network.[125]

@boxer freak: i have done some research on what u have state and i found this too on Wikipedia



so base on this section 103(f)(1), if we legally obtain license of iPhone Software, then we may circumvent (or what we call jailbreak) the software to achieve the ability the interoperability of computer program, and it does not constitue as infringement of the software

so basically it mean that Jailbreak will be argueable to be legal or illegal under this section of the US Law, but of course the legality depending on the purpose of JB-ing it.

This post has been edited by elico: Nov 16 2008, 12:20 PM

Great to hear that ! But... but then i found out the below article source from http://www.iphonehacks.com/2008/11/pwnagetoolpwned.html (For those who miss it in the earlier post, i will just Cut & paste again)

"" New MacBook Users Reporting Problems Running iPhone Dev Team's Pwnage Tool?

The iPhone Dev Team have claimed that it was impossible for Apple to fix the bug they had exploited to develop their Pwnage Tool which they claimed could only be prevented by a hardware fix.

However, Apple Engineers had proved them wrong (kind of) by figuring out a way to combat Pwnage for existing hardware by programming iTunes 8 to detect and prevent the Pwnage exploit. The iPhone Dev team had immediately released a patch to counteract Apple's counermeasure at that time.

But it looks like Apple Engineers might have another trick up their sleeve as iPhone users over at HowardForums and iPodTouchFans are reporting problems running the Pwnage Tool on the new MacBooks that were recently released by Apple........The Dev Team have not yet commented on this latest countermeasure by Apple. ""

Elico,
Maybe apple had recently change the rule & regulation that JB is no longer legal under US LAW.. (this is my assumption ONLY )

Guy, i will try to email apple.com support regarding the matter that we discuss here.. Not sure if they will entertain me or not. If they can drop a word or join us for this discussion.. THEN LYN will be very famous by then..

All of us here just want to know the REAL answer.. I think apple should be the right person to answer..


This post has been edited by sugen: Nov 15 2008, 09:55 PM

If davidgary closed his thread again..
I know who to blame on..



This post has been edited by setoyo: Nov 15 2008, 10:20 PM

Yup, finish reading... To be specific, what is the point of view from APPLE themself in term of hacking into their iphone. Will they see this hacking as legal? Or will they see this hacking as just like what you & me read blow? hmn.. I really don't know.. But i can see that APPLE is COMBATING their iphone with DEV TEAM pwnage tools..

---

Added on November 15, 2008, 10:19 pmCome on man... Davidgary open up this thread for us the discuss & debate.. So, let us accept it with open minded heart.. After all, this is just a dicussion..Every one have different view on the same thing...Let continue to discuss lah..I would say this is a great discussion..

This post has been edited by sugen: Nov 15 2008, 10:22 PM

Developer site,
Have u been use IPhone SDK toolkit...?
better get one, read the policy...
It not an easy task build and publish in Apps Store..
bcoz apple got their tough guide line...

So developer put their beloved apps in cydia/installer to sell it.
Before they can publish to Apps Store...
(Its a Long Queue to get there)
So the solution, the developer need to produce the "JAILBREAK Term"
So they can sell their useful stuff through cydia/installer.

So hacking the iphone is a must...
It produce more quality to ur iphone..

Cracking not producing anything..
it just distribute developer work..

---

Added on November 15, 2008, 11:18 pmThe dark ways,
Crack site, buy this app @usd9.99 legally then crack it...
So the developer just got usd9.99 for once transition...
Then the cracker publish his "WORK" to the world...That He Can CRACK!
Next the leeches(U KNOW HOW), just suck up this apps and sync to their iphone...
Not only that, then the "leeches" put the "CRACKED APPS" at their "place"
to distribute to other leeches... Hmmm

the next day, this developer see just an empty wallet..
but his apps is use worldwide!!!


So what do u think about crack and hacking now?
Is it same?

Tell me?

This post has been edited by setoyo: Nov 15 2008, 11:18 PM

but u just state they combating?
if against the law, shouldn't Apple file a law suit on them instead of "combat" on how to prevent it?

This post has been edited by CooLeRthings: Nov 16 2008, 01:09 AM

This is why i'm not good in debating, i easily gave up on some people that can't or refuse to see the facts laid out to them. They can't see black or white but just grey. Its already been stated that hacking depends on the persons intention. If he/she meant good then its good/legal but if he/she has malicious thinking about hacking and there are victims to his/her doing, then its bad/illegal.

Cracks/cracking in the other hand will remain illegal if he/she has a good or bad intention towards cracking the software.

If u are saying that hacks are illegal as cracks then this forum as a whole will be a boring one. We won't have modding section for pc or mac desktop i.e themes, eve candy and system tweaks. We won't have the hackintosh section or even the gamers will run away since they can't discuss hacks to their console.

This debate is going no where if some people still don't understand the difference between those two term. Facts and definition have been laid out but still have some thats trying to "menegakkan benang yg basah".

Cracks will always be illegal no matter how u twist n turn the facts to 'legalize' it.

And if u still think that hacks are also illegal but infact its not then just don't participate in the particular thread.

Nuff said

I agree with this part. If u dun JB ur iphone, it is just a piece of metal which everyone has, i mean in terms of the features, look, homescreen and etc. To unleash the FULL POTENTIAL of ur iphone, u have to JB it.

http://mac.blorge.com/2007/10/20/faq-iphon...g-jailbreaking/

just want to share

This post has been edited by g3n0c|d3: Nov 16 2008, 02:53 AM

i understand what sugen is trying to state there about the new MacBook cant use the pwn tool, the fact is that, if u think from Apple side, let say that u are Apple, for sure u will try to maintain and protect ur and ur partner benefits or interest right. Since if JB were by the law section stated before are legal, then of course Apple can only use method other than seizing the distribution of the pwn tools by law, to protect their interest

Yes JB does bring something not benefiting to Apple, but it also enable more people to join in the effort in expanding and making the iPhone and the application on iPhone flourish

JB is like a double edge sword if u were to ask me, if Apple really does to lock everything up and not allowing anyone to continue the effort to help iPhone "grow", then i would really be sad because this will make Apple re-doing their mistake in their history.... remember how Apple was used to be when Steve Jobs havent return to Apple, remember how "EMPTY" Apple was back then, almost as good as dead.

and look at Sony too, they used to be like that in the past, isolating and locking up themselve from others... yet they started to change now...

i dont mind that if these tools and thread regarding pwn tools were to remove from LYN, and i dont blame Apple if they really wanted to stop jailbreaking, i myself were not even an iPhone user to begin with, i just want Apple to continue on what they started 30 years ago, and i just wanted when i mention Apple's name, others will think of Apple as something like a smile, where everyone loves it

btw... want to add something, I used to wonder and ask "Why does Apple keep Mac OSX lock to only Apple's Machintosh, why dont they open it to allow other to used it on their PC, everyone loves Mac OSX so much, why does they keep it to themselve?", the answer to that question came not just from Apple, but also have to thanks Microsoft for it

the answer were simple : "Apple wants their user to have an overall statisfaction in using their product.", it might sound "selfish", but if u think properly, what does u feel when u use Windows Vista? Are you statisfy with it? I dont... i run Vista and Mac OSX on the very same system on my iMac, but yet how can 2 OS that do almost the same thing happen to be performing so differently on a same system, it is simple because Apple design the Mac OSX to work well with every Mac, so everyone can have the same statisfaction, and the same performance... Windows Vista are not design to be specific, they were made for everyone, that is the great thing about them, but it is also their weakness.

and for those Mac user and switchers, ask yourself "Have you ever regret on switching to Mac?" , i will be the first to say "NO, I never regreted."

Apple might not agree with JB due to the very same reason too, they want iPhone user to have a good overall statisfication, for example Apple dont want any application on iPhone to run in the background because it drain the battery life, but some apps cant work without doing so, so Apple wont allow such apps on Apps Store... but JB enable these apps to do so on an iPhone and let other application to have a chance to work and improve on it, who knows maybe someday, some genius came out an idea on how to run an application on the background while not drain the battery life thanks to JB which allowing them to have a place to test and use. Think about the limitless possiblity of JB and Apps Store can bring to iPhone, and even other product on the market

Sorry for making such a long post

This post has been edited by elico: Nov 16 2008, 04:20 AM

hahaha.. a good debater will ONLY pin point on the topic but not a person...I like this topic discussion man... Talking about hacking is legal in GENERAL.. I use back my old post again...

Let says..

IF someone hacks in FBI website, do u think that FBI will award him & praise him that he is a genius ? OR will FBI says

Definition from wikipedia

Hack

Hack has several meanings in the technology and computer science fields. It may refer to a clever or quick fix to a computer program problem, or to a clumsy or inelegant solution to a problem. The term is also used to refer to a modification of a program or device to give the user access to features that were otherwise unavailable, such as DIY circuit bending. The general media also uses this term to describe the act of illegally breaking into a computer, better described as cracking.

hmn.. i am sure they will put him in JAIL.. If this is true.. Then y hacking is legal...

---

Added on November 16, 2008, 7:32 amThanks... we all know the ADVANTAGES of JB..And we love JB... Discussion keep on... JB is legal/illegal..

---

Added on November 16, 2008, 7:39 amhmn.. Right.. I was wondering too.. But haven or does not take any law action YET does not mean that they AGREE or what DEV TEAM did is LEGAL ooo... Like Microsoft know for sure that 80% of home PC powered by end user in Malaysia mostly is using pirated OS etc... Till now, we never see Microsoft sue any end user.. That does not mean that END user does not against the law..BUT we only see action taken to Corporate....

---

Added on November 16, 2008, 7:47 amOk... APPLE is still COMBATING (means does not win yet) to cover the lop hole.. IF.. IF 1 DAY they had FIX the bug.. DEV TEAM is leave behind.. They are unable to JB anymore...(a bad news for all of us).. Then, by that time... Will we SAY "now only it looks like JB is an illegal action in the view of APPLE ...."

This post has been edited by sugen: Nov 16 2008, 07:50 AM

i just realized tat u r da one n only advocating da point tat jb is illegal...

WHO THE HELL IN THIS WORLD SAID JAILBREAKING IS LEGAL!!!!!!!!!ITS ILLEGAL

TO ALL THE NOOOOOOBS SAYING JAILBREAKING IS LEGAL, READ THIS FOR YOUR BETTER NOOB KNOWLEDGE : http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62142

@MohdFarid1994 have you even read the whole DMCA Section 1201? Here read This until section (f). JB are argueable as legal or illegal, and the outcome depending on the action and purpose of what you do with JB... dun just simply quote other website and state it is illegal

@sugen, after some of the statement from previous post, i think you still dont get it, some hacking by law are illegal, some hacking by law are legal, dont mix all and put them together as one category as hacking is illegal

like i said, under the DMCA 1201 section (f), if a person legal get the license, he can circumvent the protection system to achieve interoperability, which mean if he got the license, he is legally to crack / hack the system in order to know and learn how does the system exchange in information, so that he may use those knowledge to build more application or some other usefull program to work with it. This is an example for hacking is legal

and btw, have u heard of the term Ethical Hacking? Understand the purpose of Ethical hacking then u wont say all hacking are bad and illegal, it is depending on the course of action and purpose.