It doesn’t matter male or female. To have this type of marriage to exist, both male and female also have to agree / have the same mentality right? Can’t use one hand to clap.

I'd say such mindset towards marriage is millennia old, since historically, marriage has often been viewed primarily as a social, economic, or political arrangement rather than a romantic one.

It still exists until today in the form of arranged marriage in many countries worldwide, especially in Asia (South, Southeast, East) , Middle East and Africa, but with more emphasis on individual compatibility and decisions, rather than familial alliances and financial gains.

To me, it's neither right nor wrong because it depends on the individuals and cultures, although now it's less common among younger Malaysian Chinese.

Just because it's less common, doesn't mean it's wrong yeah.

I never said it was wrong. It’s more of not agreeing to this type of marriage due to likely to be a failure, hence the gachapon metaphor. Need to pay before knowing what you get, it’s either a good or bad outcome.

Erm... correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like there's underlying assumption that you think both partners will not have at least 6 months to date and get to know each other first, before the actual ROM and wedding?

I'm not talking about random, instant marriage here in which one just goes to ROM shortly after knowing a stranger. That's obviously reckless and highly risky.

*

My initial question was: What if we prioritized marriage first and then allowed romance to develop afterward?

The process of marrying with pragmatism is something like this, in reality:

First meeting → both individuals unofficially discuss and agree to marry → continue to know each other better and discuss more details (feelings can develop during this phase, or can break up if suddenly feel tak ngam) → if still ngam, meet parents to get approval → approved, then prepare for wedding & ROM

Estimate about 6-12 months before tying the knot.

*

As compared to the more common process (paktor first, marry later):

First meeting → paktor for 2-3 years (feelings develop first) → only then talk about marriage (or cohabit first) → only then meet parents to inform the big decision → take another 1-2 years to prepare for wedding and ROM.

From my observation, this process may not work well sometimes when the bf and gf have different goals before/after marriage, e.g. change mind about marriage, or don't wanna have kids, or one party suddenly migrates to work overseas, etc.

Subject to many changes since formal agreement about marriage and family planning is not firmly discussed, established and announced beforehand.

Break ups happen at much later stage (2-3 years into the relationship), which cause loss of time, energy and resources to both men and women.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 01:19 PM

Regardless, 1 month, 2 months, 9 months… you can’t possibly know a person WELL with such a short amount of time. How many times of conversing before the marriage? Unless the person is already a friend/colleague/mutual you known for some time (x amount of years). Then it’s different story. And if the person have only marriage on their mind, they could mask it during the short period.

This post has been edited by fearless_kiki: Oct 24 2024, 01:21 PM

Partially true.

While familiarity over a longer time is good and beneficial, but there's also the fact that... the length of knowing each other doesn't guarantee successful outcomes in marriage.

There are people who get married after several months of knowing each other, and they still stay married happily for 20-30 years.

& There are couples who know each other since high school, get married, but still divorced in the end.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 01:57 PM

If viewed at a glance, then that is what it seems. However if you investigate more closely you'll realise its all just different layers of adjustments.

Ultimately, having to "know" before you commit actually comes from putting the focus in the wrong place. Not knowing about sexual compatibility, can also be used to be said with emotional compatibility, intellectual compatibility, value compatibility, etc. etc. All of which, is also subject to change in the duration of marriage.

So how do you navigate the changes? Divorce? Of course not, you try to work it out. So what's the difference if it wasn't there in the first place and you learnt to work it out from day 1? Psychologically you could make the case that its actually better, as you start the relationship with the expectation that you need to work things out, rather than follow the flow of happy feelings.

Of course the world isn't so black and white, so there's plenty of gray area in between. Not to say dating is invalid, but many people now date for the sake of dating, rather than date with marriage in mind.

Most men who come up with such ideas, just want a wife for the following reasons
- social/familiar obligations
- back up sex
- status (pretty waifu boosts a man)
- disguise (some are gay and want to hide it)

Basically, he's looking at the woman to check certain boxes in his life, but he's not really thinking about how he would contribute to hers (beyond the surface expectations) and how both life vision fits together. He's not thinking that one day he might to clean her puke/shit if she's really ill, and be by her side. He would think its a waste of time and its good enough if he puts her in a good hospital with 24/7 support.

Some women are fine with that sort of lifestyle, and they end up getting their other needs met outside the marriage. I don't think that's the sort of relationship you're looking for.

If not arranged by family, then how is the selection process?

Ask friends..hey u want to marry me?

Yeah, you've got a solid point there.

I guess women who get into such marriages are mentally prepared not to expect much, and probably, such marriages are often open marriages where both spouses can still meet other men and women outside of marriage.

professional matchmaking services

dating apps -- can specify what you're looking for

and also places where you can advertise yourself, e.g. Love Classifieds

The whole cry in ferarri than laugh on a bicycle mentality

Yes, though its often not an honest open-marriage. The woman typically understands that the male will f`k around, but the woman will not be allowed to do the same. So if the woman plays, its in secret.

I actually know someone who's the 3rd party to such a relationship. The couple isn't married yet, but its pretty much the scenario you describe. They got together cause for pragmatic reasons, the girl plays the role of wife even though not married, very supportive and basically does all the female wife duties managing the familial relationships and household stuff while he focuses on his career. He does his duty for her, but no chemistry and spark, which he finds in the person I know. However when he found out his gf was just being friendly with other dudes, he got jealous af

Of course there’s no guarantees in life. Same as those who had 10 years relationship might not enter into marriage.

But at least knowing a person can eliminate unnecessary arguments, misunderstandings and culture shock. I once know a girl who got married to a guy within few months (if not for covid it would be faster). She is the one that you described, marry first, love later. The first year of her marriage she received culture shock as her husband is not willing to do some of her hobbies/interest like Zumba and tufting. He however does cafe hop with her. She went all upset learning that her husband is not willing to do certain things, to the point that ad hoc went back to her mom’s house. After that she slowly learn that she actually can HAVE A LIFE apart from marriage, like getting friends from Zumba class etc. But yeah, if she learnt that before marriage maybe it won’t escalate until such a big drama.

This post has been edited by fearless_kiki: Oct 24 2024, 06:55 PM

haha yeah, exactly. Some women do want that and aim for that.

I see... so I guess the open marriage arrangement isn't something that can be discuss before such marriage?

Also, I wanna point out there are some differences between pragmatic marriage and marriage of convenience:

I see. Well, the risk of marrying within few months (whether out of romance and pragmatism) is always there.

In terms of dating length and risk correlation, this is how I see it:


Dating for a Longer Time

Understanding a Person: From 0% to 90% over time.
↓
Feeling Safe and Familiar: Once a deep understanding is reached, partners may feel more secure in their connection.
↓
Lower Risks: A greater understanding of each other's values, habits, and compatibility.
↓
Fewer Mismatches: Increased likelihood of a harmonious relationship.
↓
Reduced Disharmony: Partners are more equipped to navigate conflicts and challenges.

---------------

Dating for a Shorter Time

Understanding a Person: From 0% to 50% in a brief period.
↓
Getting Married Sooner: This may lead to impulsive decisions driven by passion rather than a solid understanding of each other.
↓
Higher Risks: Less familiarity
↓
Mismatches: Greater chance of discovering incompatible traits post-marriage.
↓
Disharmony: Potential for conflict due to unmet expectations or differences.
↓
Potential Outcomes:
Choice A: Change the Spouse to Fit Ideals – Attempt to mold the partner into an idealized version, often leading to resentment.
Choice B: Accept the Spouse as They Are – Embrace differences, which can foster a more genuine connection but may require compromise.
Choice C: Leave the Spouse – This could manifest as ignoring issues, separation, or divorce if the mismatches are deemed irreconcilable.

---------------

Ideally, dating for longer time before marriage is better, but not everyone wants it or can do it, due to a myriad of reasons (internal and external factors).

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 10:29 PM

Relying chatGPT a lot lately?

Don't rely on it too much, the information it gives you is not really based on truth, just likely probabilities of what looks right.

Frankly to me, there's no difference between pragmatic and convenience, they're both done for the same reason. Pragmatism is simply convenience in a suit.

Open marriage is certainly something you can discuss before marriage, but that kind of defeats the purpose of marriage right? generally most men will be against it as well.

Why not? Human is live 人是生动的，as my mom liked to say it when I was young and stupid (inflexible). We're made of many spectrums, not binaries. There's never an absolute yes/no, and me saying this way is in fact an oxymoron because I just made an "absolute" statement.

Problem is, rules and agreement can be broken... People sometimes give in to impulses. People constantly change for the better or worse, what works now may not be the same later.

Now I read your posts about pragmatic marriage, it strongly reminds me of "The Full-time Wife Escapist" Japanese drama/manga, where the male and female protagonist enter a contractual marriage where the woman works as a full time housewife and gets paid monthly (including expenses claim, overtime etc like a proper office employee). Shame ChatGPT didn't introduce you that... I think you're looking for this kind of arrangement?

...which, there's also hit and miss like how you sometimes have a good or bad boss at work lol.

At the end of the day, no matter it's arranged/pragmatic/contractual/transactional/romantic/whatchamacallit marriage, it takes two committed reasonable adults to make it work.

Ah no, I read on Wikipedia and other sources before. I'm just lazy to write the full thing. Haha

I'm quite curious and interested about romantic relationships and complexities, so I spend lots of time reading and studying all kinds of topics.

It makes me wonder further why some people do this but not that, so I supplement my knowledge by asking for personal opinions and real life experiences from forums.

1) Not all couples can comfortably discuss open marriage without getting hurt or offended. Hence, some men or women would rather do it secretly.

2) I never said I was looking for such arrangement. I'm merely curious in exploring unconventional perspectives, as I always do.

3) Agreed. How it starts vs how it ends... the ending is more important.

Ah sorry, I don't mean looking to engage into. It felt to me you were looking for a case to validate a pragmatic marriage arrangement, which I thought the jdrama depicted it quite accurately - problems occur as the couple navigate through the formal arrangement and they both make a lot of assumptions.

In reality, I'm sure it already works for some couples... E.g. men buying Viet/Thai/xxxx wife?

BUT, I've never heard of a non monetary "pragmatic" arrangement though, cuz that would mean you need two individuals with equal financial statuses... What would you seek to get from the other party through marriage then? Personally, I can only think of things that require a marriage certificate to benefit, such as seeking to maximise insurance coverage at work via spousal coverage, optimise tax filing and relief. Everything else, you don't need to marry...

That’s why communication is important. Communicate, communicate, communicate. That is why we always need to communicate. Be open with each other. When there is a problem, talk it out and tackle the issue.

Those who mostly have different goals are those who marry early, early 20s probably. They just started to see the world and experience a lot of new stuff. Views might change and goals might not align. Early 20s is the time to test the relationship whether it will last or not. Late 20s to early 30s are a good sweet spot to get married as people become more mature and mostly they know what they want in life already. It’s kind of rare to have people change their minds after that. It’s rare but doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

I know someone that was into food with his ex wife. They always eat happily until one day the man found out from doctor that if he doesn’t change his habit, he only have few years to live. Then the guy started to change his life to have healthier lifestyle, and even got into bodybuilding. And that means having a very strict diet. But the ex wife is never into this kind of lifestyle and just like to eat. End up she cheated behind his back with someone who can eat with her. But this kind of case is RARE.

As for people that break up 2-3 years after, it’s very normal. How many of us that lucky to have a childhood gf bf that can last until marriage? Most of us need to search until we find the right one. It’s because of the incompatibility, people cut the losses and move on before it gets worse (tying the knot or have a baby) Eg, finding out your partner that he/she doesn’t want kids. Of course need to break and find until getting the right one. If continue to stay in a dysfunctional relationship for yearsssssss then then it’s on you. And I don’t think people will change minds about kids that easily….

As in the case of migration, weight the pros and cons then decide where to stay lor, no need to break up one lah 😂

This post has been edited by fearless_kiki: Oct 25 2024, 09:32 AM