Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

Serious Are You Open to Marriage First, Romance Later?, Asking men

views
     
TSRalna
post Oct 23 2024, 01:49 AM, updated 2y ago

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


I’ve been reflecting on relationships and the traditional paths we often follow when it comes to love and commitment. As I navigate the dating scene again, I’m curious to hear your thoughts on an unconventional approach: what if we prioritized marriage first and then allowed romance to develop afterward?

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


In a world where casual dating and fleeting connections seem to be the norm, I believe there’s something beautifully profound about building a foundation of commitment and partnership before diving into the romantic aspects of a relationship. Here are a few reasons why I find this perspective intriguing:

• Shared Values - By focusing on marriage first, we can ensure that we share the same life goals, values, and visions for the future. This alignment can lead to a more stable and fulfilling relationship.

• Intentionality - Entering a marriage with the intention to build a life together can foster a deeper sense of responsibility and dedication. It shifts the focus from simply enjoying the moment to nurturing a long-lasting partnership.

• Emotional Security - Establishing a committed relationship first can create a safe space for both partners to explore their feelings and develop emotional intimacy at a comfortable pace.

• Less Pressure on Romance - With the commitment in place, we can enjoy the journey of getting to know each other without the pressure of trying to impress or “win” one another over in the romantic sense. We can focus on building a strong friendship and partnership.

• Collaborative Growth - In a marriage-first approach, both partners can support each other in their personal growth, understanding that they are working toward a shared life, which can enhance the romantic connection as the relationship matures.

What are your thoughts on this approach?
TSRalna
post Oct 23 2024, 12:01 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(abelyap @ Oct 23 2024, 09:17 AM)
That is traditional method. Some Indian still follow arranged marriage. U might get ur answer there
*
Yes, kinda similar but I'm not referring to arranged marriage by family.

More like voluntary choice by individuals at own will.
TSRalna
post Oct 23 2024, 07:31 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


Takudan silverhawk

Thanks for your input.

I'm asking because years ago, there were several men who treated marriage as transactional.

They asked me lots of questions to qualify me as potential wife/marriage partner, and then they proposed unofficially on the first date itself.

The reason was they didn't like to waste resources (time, money, energy) on romance, and they preferred going straight for marriage + having children, with duties for both the husband and the wife fully spelled out and agreed by both parties.

It's also partly to protect themselves from emotional hurts and losses from break ups.

Those men usually were kinda jaded already and fully focused on their career/business, so they just needed a qualified woman to get married to and fulfill the marital/parental duties + meet their family expectations.
TSRalna
post Oct 23 2024, 10:10 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(silverhawk @ Oct 23 2024, 09:04 PM)
If that's the type of men/relationship that you're looking at getting into marriage and then blossoming into romance, its not going to happen.
That type of man isn't really looking for a wife; or more specifically, he's not looking to be a husband. That is an important criteria you should be looking at.
What typically happens is the man and woman do their husband of wifely duties in their social circle, but there's no love/passion. Then either side will end up getting that passion met outside the marriage.
*
Yeah, it's more of a pragmatic marriage right from the start. Personally, I think it has its purpose and uses though.

After having seen so many cases of couples who married for love but still ended up cheating and getting divorced, or cheating but staying married with lots of problems, I sometimes question why marry for romance. There's more heartache when more passion is involved, and passion does fade over time... which will eventually lead to couples staying together for pragmatic reasons. hmm.gif

Basically,

Scenario A: Marry with passion → passion dies over time → become pragmatic

Scenario B: Marry with pragmatism → passion lacks from the beginning → still pragmatic

In both scenarios, spouses may cheat, since there's no passion. The difference is... which is less heartbreaking? hmm.gif

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 23 2024, 10:15 PM
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 10:40 AM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(silverhawk @ Oct 24 2024, 12:13 AM)
Passion can be reignited, so its typically better that its been there before.

People cheat, get divorced etc. because couples are no longer willing to put the work in. We live in a culture now of instant gratification and selfishness. Its about my needs, my happiness, me, me, me. Yes those things are important, but it should all be in service to a higher goal/purpose.

Ultimately, it boils down to whether the couple wants it to work or not. In your initial example of men who want to get married for pragmatic reasons, the onset is already wrong as they are still seeing things from their individual perspective and not becoming together as a single entity.
*
You've got a good point there.

Next, in the case of pragmatic marriage, with men treating marriage as an official partnership, the women would be equal partners to form the single entity (unless the women don't know how to establish their position and just blindly listen to the men). It's just like a biz partnership where both partners work for a common goal. hmm.gif

Just asking because I'm in my curious mode regarding such dynamics.


TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 10:42 AM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(Takudan @ Oct 24 2024, 12:33 AM)
Eh are we living in the same planet? I hear the complete opposite when it comes to men's self protection -- they choose to avoid marriage because a divorce would mean their wealth siphoned by their ex spouse, citing Bill Gate's case.
...
*
QUOTE(fearless_kiki @ Oct 24 2024, 08:26 AM)
TS thoughts of marriage is rather naive. If only a life partner can be easily found with just an interview of questionnaire, then divorce lawyers and couple counselling will be out of business 😂
...
*
I'm just narrating what those men told me. You should ask them where they got the idea from. Not one man, but several men thought like this.

This is why I'm curious to find out from this thread. I'm thinking from the other POV (those men's POV) that women don't usually agree with. Just thought it was kinda interesting to explore the reasons behind and general views.



This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 10:49 AM
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 11:01 AM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


Actually, come to think of it further, pragmatic marriage is a popular genre in novels and dramas: some rich and handsome men come up with contracts to get a wife, and still women agree. laugh.gif

From ChatGPT:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


QUOTE
Common Themes in These Stories:
- Power Dynamics: The male lead often holds financial power, but the contract levels the playing field emotionally.
- Emotional Growth: The initial cold or pragmatic relationship slowly evolves as both characters discover emotional depth in one another.
- Internal Conflict: The tension between contractual obligations and real feelings creates much of the drama in these stories.
- Female Empowerment: While the contract may seem one-sided at first, these stories often depict the female lead gaining strength, independence, and emotional influence.

These plots appeal to the fantasy of love conquering even the most pragmatic or contractual arrangements.

Should I feel privileged that I got such offers from rich and successful men, in my twenties? brows.gif

I didn't accept their offers back then though; rejected straightaway because it was so 'un-romantic'.

However, now... hmm... let me explore such POVs further. Kinda interesting to dig deeper as I recently become single again.

Just giving some serious thoughts; I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing; neutral. hmm.gif

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 11:24 AM
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 11:14 AM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


Sharing what I asked ChatGPT:

QUOTE
Whether it's better to marry for romance or for pragmatic reasons really depends on the individuals and what they prioritize in a relationship. Both approaches have their merits, and the ideal marriage often involves a balance of both love and practicality. Here’s a breakdown of both perspectives:

1. Marrying for Romance
  Pros:
  - Emotional Fulfillment: Marriages based on love often start with a strong emotional connection, passion, and mutual attraction, which can create a deep sense of joy and fulfillment.
  - Support in Hard Times: A strong romantic bond can help couples endure tough times because they feel emotionally invested in each other.
  - Personal Happiness: When people marry for love, they often feel more personally satisfied and fulfilled because their emotional needs are met.

  Cons:
  - Love Can Fade: Some relationships that start with intense romance can fizzle out if the emotional connection is not supported by shared values or long-term compatibility.
  - Overlooking Practical Issues: Love can sometimes blind couples to practical realities like financial stability, life goals, or personal habits, which can create stress later.
 
2. Marrying for Pragmatic Reasons
  Pros:
  - Stability and Security: Marrying for practical reasons like shared values, financial stability, or family goals can create a solid foundation for a stable, long-term relationship.
  - Growth of Love: In many pragmatic marriages, love and affection develop over time as the couple builds a life together and grows to appreciate each other’s strengths.
  - Alignment on Life Goals: Pragmatic marriages are often based on mutual goals, like raising children or achieving financial success, which can foster a sense of partnership.

  Cons:
  - Lack of Passion: If a marriage starts without strong emotional or romantic feelings, some couples may struggle to find that emotional connection, leading to feelings of emptiness or dissatisfaction.
  - Potential for Resentment: If one or both partners feel they were pressured into the marriage for practical reasons, resentment can build over time.

Which is Better?
  - For Love: If you deeply value emotional connection, personal happiness, and romantic affection, marrying for love may feel more fulfilling. However, it's important to ensure that the relationship also has practical elements like compatibility and shared goals.
  - For Practical Reasons: If you prioritize stability, security, and shared life goals, a pragmatic marriage might work better for you. In this case, it’s important to nurture emotional intimacy over time, even if it wasn’t the foundation of the relationship.

In real life, many successful marriages combine both: love and romance alongside practical considerations like shared values, financial stability, and compatibility. The most successful partnerships often involve a combination of both emotional and practical elements, as both are essential for long-term happiness.
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 11:44 AM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(nihility @ Oct 24 2024, 11:17 AM)
Neutral: It can works and it can fails at the same time.
...
Changes already taken place , the current modern society already enjoys so much freedom to dictate their own fate including their life partner. Going against the society's self correcting action seem to be against the "flow" in my opinion.
*
Thanks for sharing your views on both POVs.

From my understanding, it's more important to look at WHO rather than HOW the relationship started, and WHAT should be the end outcomes we want to achieve as marital partners.

*

As for the self-correcting action in the society, I partially agree because there seems to be too much freedom until some men and women get married to 3-10 partners in extreme cases. Men and women change partners and spouses like changing clothes.

Next, as divorces become more and more common in modern times, marriage has lost its sense of solemnity and permanence, with children being impacted the most. This impacts the future generations and societal structure.

QUOTE
China proposes law to make it easier to register marriages, harder to divorce

HONG KONG, Aug 15 (Reuters) - China has put together a revised draft law that will make it simpler for couples to register their marriage, while filing for divorce will become tougher, a move that drew scorn from netizens and became a top trending online topic on Thursday.

The draft, aimed at building a "family friendly society", was released by China's Ministry of Civil Affairs this week for public feedback. People are able to submit comments to the ministry until Sept 11, it said.

It comes as policymakers struggle to encourage young couples to get married and have children after the country's population fell for years.

The proposed law removes regional restrictions for marriage seen in the previous law where marriages had to be handled at the household registration location of the couple.
Divorces will be subject to a 30-day cooling off period during which, if either party is unwilling to divorce, they may withdraw the application, terminating the divorce registration process, the draft said.

"It's easy to get married, but hard to divorce, What a stupid rule," wrote a netizen on Chinese social media platform Weibo (9898.HK), opens new tab, attracting tens of thousands of likes.

The regulation aims to "promote the importance of marriage and family," reduce impulsive divorces, uphold social stability, and better protect legitimate rights of the parties involved, Jiang Quanbao, a professor at the Institute for Population and Development Studies at Xi'an Jiaotong University, told the state-backed Global Times.

Such is the mindset of current generations towards marriage... until the (Chinese) government has to set a new law.

Kinda sad, isn't it?

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 11:47 AM
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 12:18 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(fearless_kiki @ Oct 24 2024, 11:59 AM)
It doesn’t matter male or female. To have this type of marriage to exist, both male and female also have to agree / have the same mentality right? Can’t use one hand to clap.
*
I'd say such mindset towards marriage is millennia old, since historically, marriage has often been viewed primarily as a social, economic, or political arrangement rather than a romantic one.

It still exists until today in the form of arranged marriage in many countries worldwide, especially in Asia (South, Southeast, East) , Middle East and Africa, but with more emphasis on individual compatibility and decisions, rather than familial alliances and financial gains.

To me, it's neither right nor wrong because it depends on the individuals and cultures, although now it's less common among younger Malaysian Chinese.

Just because it's less common, doesn't mean it's wrong yeah.
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 01:07 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(fearless_kiki @ Oct 24 2024, 12:29 PM)
I never said it was wrong. It’s more of not agreeing to this type of marriage due to likely to be a failure, hence the gachapon metaphor. Need to pay before knowing what you get, it’s either a good or bad outcome.
*
Erm... correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like there's underlying assumption that you think both partners will not have at least 6 months to date and get to know each other first, before the actual ROM and wedding?

I'm not talking about random, instant marriage here in which one just goes to ROM shortly after knowing a stranger. That's obviously reckless and highly risky.

*

My initial question was: What if we prioritized marriage first and then allowed romance to develop afterward?

The process of marrying with pragmatism is something like this, in reality:

First meeting → both individuals unofficially discuss and agree to marry → continue to know each other better and discuss more details (feelings can develop during this phase, or can break up if suddenly feel tak ngam) → if still ngam, meet parents to get approval → approved, then prepare for wedding & ROM

Estimate about 6-12 months before tying the knot.

*

As compared to the more common process (paktor first, marry later):

First meeting → paktor for 2-3 years (feelings develop first) → only then talk about marriage (or cohabit first) → only then meet parents to inform the big decision → take another 1-2 years to prepare for wedding and ROM.

From my observation, this process may not work well sometimes when the bf and gf have different goals before/after marriage, e.g. change mind about marriage, or don't wanna have kids, or one party suddenly migrates to work overseas, etc.

Subject to many changes since formal agreement about marriage and family planning is not firmly discussed, established and announced beforehand.

Break ups happen at much later stage (2-3 years into the relationship), which cause loss of time, energy and resources to both men and women.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 01:19 PM
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 01:36 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(fearless_kiki @ Oct 24 2024, 01:19 PM)
Regardless, 1 month, 2 months, 9 months… you can’t possibly know a person WELL with such a short amount of time. Unless the person is already a friend/colleague/mutual you known for some time (x amount of years). Then it’s different story. And if the person have only marriage on their mind, they could mask it during the short period. wink.gif
*
Partially true.

While familiarity over a longer time is good and beneficial, but there's also the fact that... the length of knowing each other doesn't guarantee successful outcomes in marriage.

There are people who get married after several months of knowing each other, and they still stay married happily for 20-30 years.

& There are couples who know each other since high school, get married, but still divorced in the end.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 01:57 PM
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 05:59 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(silverhawk @ Oct 24 2024, 02:08 PM)
...
Basically, he's looking at the woman to check certain boxes in his life, but he's not really thinking about how he would contribute to hers (beyond the surface expectations) and how both life vision fits together. He's not thinking that one day he might to clean her puke/shit if she's really ill, and be by her side. He would think its a waste of time and its good enough if he puts her in a good hospital with 24/7 support.

Some women are fine with that sort of lifestyle, and they end up getting their other needs met outside the marriage. I don't think that's the sort of relationship you're looking for.
*
Yeah, you've got a solid point there.

I guess women who get into such marriages are mentally prepared not to expect much, and probably, such marriages are often open marriages where both spouses can still meet other men and women outside of marriage.


TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 06:02 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Oct 24 2024, 04:14 PM)
If not arranged by family, then how is the selection process?

Ask friends..hey u want to marry me?
*
professional matchmaking services

dating apps -- can specify what you're looking for

and also places where you can advertise yourself, e.g. Love Classifieds
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 10:02 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(silverhawk @ Oct 24 2024, 06:24 PM)
The whole cry in ferarri than laugh on a bicycle mentality laugh.gif

Yes, though its often not an honest open-marriage. The woman typically understands that the male will f`k around, but the woman will not be allowed to do the same. So if the woman plays, its in secret.
...
*
haha yeah, exactly. Some women do want that and aim for that.

I see... so I guess the open marriage arrangement isn't something that can be discuss before such marriage?

Also, I wanna point out there are some differences between pragmatic marriage and marriage of convenience:

QUOTE
From ChatGPT:

Marriage of Convenience and Pragmatic Marriage both refer to unions that are based on practical considerations rather than romantic love, but they have some distinctions:

Marriage of Convenience
- Definition: This type of marriage is typically entered into for specific, often external reasons, such as financial security, legal benefits, or social status. The partners may not have a romantic connection but find it beneficial to marry.
- Characteristics:
  - External Benefits: Often motivated by practical needs, like immigration status, inheritance rights, or social standing.
  - Limited Emotional Connection: There may be little to no emotional intimacy or romantic affection between the partners.
  - Transactional Nature: The focus is more on the advantages that come from the marriage rather than the relationship itself.

Pragmatic Marriage
- Definition: A pragmatic marriage is based on practical considerations but can include a more balanced view of companionship and shared life goals. This type of marriage may involve some degree of emotional connection, even if it is not driven by intense passion.
- Characteristics:
  - Mutual Goals: Partners may marry to achieve common objectives, such as raising a family, improving financial stability, or pursuing shared interests.
  - Potential for Affection: While romance may not be the primary focus, there can be a degree of emotional intimacy and companionship.
  - Long-Term Stability: This type of marriage often emphasizes building a stable and lasting partnership, with both parties investing in the relationship over time.
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 10:24 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(fearless_kiki @ Oct 24 2024, 06:54 PM)
Of course there’s no guarantees in life. Same as those who had 10 years relationship might not enter into marriage.

But at least knowing a person can eliminate unnecessary arguments, misunderstandings and culture shock. I once know a girl who got married to a guy within few months (if not for covid it would be faster). She is the one that you described, marry first, love later. The first year of her marriage she received culture shock as her husband is not willing to do some of her hobbies/interest like Zumba and tufting. He however does cafe hop with her. She went all upset learning that her husband is not willing to do certain things, to the point that ad hoc went back to her mom’s house. After that she slowly learn that she actually can HAVE A LIFE apart from marriage, like getting friends from Zumba class etc. But yeah, if she learnt that before marriage maybe it won’t escalate until such a big drama.
*
I see. Well, the risk of marrying within few months (whether out of romance and pragmatism) is always there.

In terms of dating length and risk correlation, this is how I see it:


Dating for a Longer Time

Understanding a Person: From 0% to 90% over time.

Feeling Safe and Familiar: Once a deep understanding is reached, partners may feel more secure in their connection.

Lower Risks: A greater understanding of each other's values, habits, and compatibility.

Fewer Mismatches: Increased likelihood of a harmonious relationship.

Reduced Disharmony: Partners are more equipped to navigate conflicts and challenges.

---------------

Dating for a Shorter Time

Understanding a Person: From 0% to 50% in a brief period.

Getting Married Sooner: This may lead to impulsive decisions driven by passion rather than a solid understanding of each other.

Higher Risks: Less familiarity

Mismatches: Greater chance of discovering incompatible traits post-marriage.

Disharmony: Potential for conflict due to unmet expectations or differences.

Potential Outcomes:
Choice A: Change the Spouse to Fit Ideals – Attempt to mold the partner into an idealized version, often leading to resentment.
Choice B: Accept the Spouse as They Are – Embrace differences, which can foster a more genuine connection but may require compromise.
Choice C: Leave the Spouse – This could manifest as ignoring issues, separation, or divorce if the mismatches are deemed irreconcilable.

---------------

Ideally, dating for longer time before marriage is better, but not everyone wants it or can do it, due to a myriad of reasons (internal and external factors).

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 24 2024, 10:29 PM
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 11:31 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(silverhawk @ Oct 24 2024, 11:02 PM)
Relying chatGPT a lot lately? laugh.gif
...
Open marriage is certainly something you can discuss before marriage, but that kind of defeats the purpose of marriage right? generally most men will be against it as well.
*
Ah no, I read on Wikipedia and other sources before. I'm just lazy to write the full thing. Haha

I'm quite curious and interested about romantic relationships and complexities, so I spend lots of time reading and studying all kinds of topics.

It makes me wonder further why some people do this but not that, so I supplement my knowledge by asking for personal opinions and real life experiences from forums.
TSRalna
post Oct 24 2024, 11:44 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(Takudan @ Oct 24 2024, 11:20 PM)
Why not? Human is live 人是生动的
...
Shame ChatGPT didn't introduce you that... I think you're looking for this kind of arrangement?
...
At the end of the day, no matter it's arranged/pragmatic/contractual/transactional/romantic/whatchamacallit marriage, it takes two committed reasonable adults to make it work.
*
1) Not all couples can comfortably discuss open marriage without getting hurt or offended. Hence, some men or women would rather do it secretly.

2) I never said I was looking for such arrangement. I'm merely curious in exploring unconventional perspectives, as I always do.

3) Agreed. How it starts vs how it ends... the ending is more important.
TSRalna
post Oct 26 2024, 07:35 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(nihility @ Oct 26 2024, 07:11 AM)
At the macro level of the discussion of this thread (disregarding the topic & emotion), there is a branch of thinking which deploys the similar method of thinking displayed by TS.

It is known as "Quantum Thinking". I'm not certain if TS is doing it with the full awareness of such technique or it is by accident.
...
Wow, you're really sharp and deep. I'm surprised and delighted. :thumbsup:

Answering your question, yes, I'm fully aware. In my other posts in Serious Kopitiam, I previously discussed supernaturalism, spirituality and quantum physics, where I explained about multiple dimensions and realities, abilities in 4D and above such as time travel and teleportation, and the entities in different dimensions.

Some background of how I got into this state:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


My thinking and writing is either too odd or too deep to most people, because it challenges lots of existing beliefs and assumptions. I know this long ago, and I have a term for this: 'mind bomb'. My close friends often feel their mind getting 'exploded'/challenged when I expose them to new ideas or perspectives. According to them, they'll ruminate for weeks. It's deep yet profound once they fully get what I'm saying... and this breaks their mental barriers.

I think you should be able to understand what I'm talking about here. smile.gif

& I'm curious to know how you can be so open-minded and knowledgeable too. Rare to see a guy/human who can identify and point out this.

& Are you an INTJ? Usually INTJ can get me easily. ^^

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 26 2024, 07:56 PM
TSRalna
post Oct 26 2024, 07:39 PM

I love who I am
****
Junior Member
657 posts

Joined: Sep 2012
From: Selangor


QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Oct 26 2024, 07:56 AM)
Sounds like a desperate move.

But it is possible to get hitched like that if one lowers standards.
*
How would someone beyond your current level and social circles know that you exist if you don't get yourself known out there?

If want bigger and better fish, one gotta jump out of a small pond into a lake, or leap into the ocean where there are more fish around to be potential mates.

2 Pages  1 2 >Top
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0157sec    0.26    6 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 5th December 2025 - 09:34 PM