TL;DR -- Ordinary guys can offer more benefits in relationship than Top guys do.

Heads up: This is a long thread and will take you 3-5 minutes to read... and probably get mind-blown by my new perspectives. hehe

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Last week, I came across this image on Facebook. I thought it was kinda true, and read all the FB comments-- mostly from men who feel



When I was younger in my twenties, I also aimed for the top 10% men. I worked hard to attract such men because I wanted to 'marry up', which was common for Chinese women and supported by Chinese parents. Those who knew me in my earlier years would know that I wrote about "How to Marry A Rich Man".

That sparked quite a debate, and now, after almost 8 years... I have a different opinion. I wanna tell the other side of the story.

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Back then, I did successfully attract several rich and highly successful men. Among them, I dated my ex-fiancé and now a new guy.

Ex was financially well-off at the C-level of MNCs, while the new guy was also internationally known in his field. Both of them were highly educated with master's, 185 cm tall, good-looking and well-built. Both pursued me first and messaged me non-stop... to ask what I was doing, how I was feeling, if I liked them, if I missed them, etc...

However, what I didn't know was... what romance novels and K-dramas showed were not real...

Seriously, girls, don't fantasise too much. I'll tell you why in the following paragraphs and burst some pink bubbles. LOL



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Some personal stories here about what I feel around top 10% guys:

(can skip if too long to read-- not the main points for this topic; just some background stories of why I formed different perceptions about them)



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Back to the topic, I do think top level men pursue their ambition and achievement with laser focus, so much so until things could get out of balance sometimes; also because they have KPIs to meet-- the higher they climb, the more responsibilities they're given, and the more expectations they need to meet from their employers, biz partners, other stakeholders, etc.

Biologically, the male brain is designed to be goal-driven, highly linear and focused, and men just cannot multitask well and juggle so many things at any one time. When their work mode is turned on, they can't think much about romance. These two domains do not merge nor interact well with each other.

As a woman behind a successful man, it can feel lonely sometimes especially when he disappears for several days up to 1 week, or two weeks with minimal communication and no paktor time, so that he can focus on his work.

Personally, I cope with his absence and the loneliness by keeping myself occupied with biz stuff, beauty treatments, sports and activities with my friends. I learned to give 20% of my time to my man, and keep the 80% to myself and other people. It is only when he is ready to be fully focused on me that I give him total attention and affection, and this usually happens when we are on vacation or weekend getaways-- which is like, every few weeks or months...

Perhaps, things might be slightly easier if we're married and living together, but I doubt so because... I would probably feel like a married 'single mom' who has to take care of everything when husband is always away for work and comes home just to sleep. This is another type of reality to face in married life.



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I did some reading, and concluded the following on why women should really try dating ordinary guys instead of just aiming for the top 10% guys.

These are the benefits in dating ordinary guys-- which is good news to men and women:

1. More Emotional Availability, More Focus on Relationship
Ordinary guys might have more time and energy to invest in a relationship. They tend to lead less hectic lifestyles, making them more emotionally available and attentive to your needs. With fewer distractions like high-stress careers or constant travel, ordinary guys may prioritize their relationships and give more time and attention to building a strong connection.

2. Less Ego, Less Pressure, Less Societal Expectations
Ordinary guys often feel less societal pressure to maintain a certain status. They might not move in high-status or competitive social circles, reducing the pressure to constantly keep up with a fast-paced, high-profile lifestyle. This can make them more down-to-earth, approachable, and authentic in their interactions, without the ego-driven challenges that can sometimes come with top-level men. Relationships with ordinary guys also often come with less public attention, meaning fewer expectations from society and less scrutiny from friends or colleagues. This can allow you to focus on the relationship itself, rather than outside perceptions.

3. Relatable Life Experiences
Ordinary guys often share experiences that might align more closely with your own, making it easier to relate to them on an everyday level. This can create a more grounded relationship where both partners feel equal.

4. Greater Stability
Depending on their job or lifestyle, ordinary guys may offer more stability and consistency in their daily lives. You may not have to deal with the unpredictability of frequent business trips or work commitments that often come with top-level guys. This can create a more relaxed, private, and intimate relationship.

5. Shared Growth
Ordinary guys might still be working on building their own careers and futures, which can lead to shared growth within the relationship. You can both build together and celebrate each other's successes without feeling overshadowed by their status.

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In comparison, these are the downsides of dating top 10% men:

1. Lack of time and emotional availability
Highly successful men are usually extremely driven, which can be inspiring and motivating for some. However, their ambition can sometimes come at the expense of time and emotional availability. Due to demanding careers, top-level men may be less available for emotional connection or quality time. They might travel frequently, have long work hours, or prioritize work over personal life, which can impact the relationship.

2. High Status, High Pressure, High Societal Expectations
Being with a top-level guy often means socializing in high-status circles, which can open doors to new connections. On the flip side, this may also come with more pressure to maintain appearances and keep up with an intense lifestyle. A relationship with a top-level man might attract more attention from the media, social circles, or the public, leading to more external pressure and less privacy.

3. Ego and Power Dynamics
Dating a highly successful man can sometimes involve navigating strong egos, power dynamics, or competitiveness, which may create an imbalance in the relationship. It can also lead to feelings of insecurity or a lack of equality, especially if the woman is ordinary and pale in comparison with her man. In the long run, the gaps between both partners may become bigger, which may result in contrasting differences that lead to relationship failures.

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To sum up...

1) I always feel ordinary men have lots of potential, provided that they are not wounded/not messed up + are emotionally available to love a woman + willing to balance work, life and relationship + have some growth mindset and open-mindedness...

Such men are more balanced instead of being at the extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. overly successful or overly defeated. If I could advise my younger self, it would be to not be too fixated on a certain type of man, and learn to see ordinary men and appreciate their fine inner qualities... and give them a chance to win my heart if they'd like to date me further.


2) Also, I think, as women, we really need to stop fantasising about those top guys as some super romantic lengzai CEOs who have plenty of time and affection (because in real life, they don't ) and stop getting hooked to those really bad bad boys whom we think we can 'save and fix'-- because we can't unless they want.

Romance novels and dramas ain't 100% true in real life--- mostly illusions of top guys and bad bad boys. Can these men be good bfs and husbands? Of course, they can... but maybe not to you, especially if they aren't the ones pursuing you. Ever heard of the saying "A woman can't change a man because she loves him, a man changes himself because he loves her"? This is true. Men listen to and want to please the apples of their eyes, not some easy flings who flung themselves to men.


3) Ah, nice. I finally shared what I felt should do most men some justice.

So ya, guys... the next time if a girl rejects you because she thinks you ain't that successful nor in the top 10% yet, please tell her what Ralna (spelled as: R-A-L-N-A) says here and continue to 'market and upsell' your good points as an ordinary man.

If you don't know how to pursue a girl, please refer to my other guides:
How to Dress Like A Lengzai... and attract more girls to look at you
This is how I would pursue women... if I were a man

Look at the time and effort I spent to write these threads and help more single men... I'm doing social service to the country and providing some relationship edutainment when I feel bored without men but still get inspired by their absence. Solitude can be good for women, too.

Yeah, girls grow up caring too much about how people think of them and being influenced by other people and mass media.

Awwww~ hugs

I hope more women will read my post and give men chance.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 2 2024, 10:03 PM

Why 99% of Guys Don't Approach Women
for ladies to watch and understand men


-- shared to me by a male forumer. Giving credits to him for making me/girls more aware. ^^



This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 2 2024, 10:07 PM

He doesn't want to be known here. That's why I didn't include his nickname.

Yeah, we live in a third world country with brain drain and relaxed attitude. With education, in-demand skills, some hard work and connections, a man can easily climb the ladder if he aims for it.

Also, generally speaking, Malaysian women aren't as picky as Singaporean women, Mainland Chinese women and Korean women who have higher demands of bride prices and social/financial status of the bride grooms.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 3 2024, 04:43 PM

Thanks for sharing. Interesting study. I'll get a copy to read.

As women, we are more sociable and emotionally supported by our family and friends. We share our ups and downs with them.

I'm not exactly sure why men don't have such with their own family and friends. I thought men have their own brotherhood circles/gangs...? Or are those just for hobbies and fun, but don't really delve deeper into supporting each other (probably be seen as weak in the group)?

In my personal experiences, I do know of men (either someone I know or someone my friends know) who suddenly collapsed at work or during sports and passed away in their 40s... without any warning signs. They are usually highly repressed men with stressful or demanding jobs.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 3 2024, 05:46 PM

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Personally, I think normal dating and sugar dating fullfil two different sets of needs and goals.

With normal dating (between mature men and women), there are deeper emotions involved with medium-to long-term relationship goals, social connections and mutual growth. It is a romantic partnership that can last for years to a lifetime. However, it also comes with lots of commitment and own sets of challenges.

Sugar dating is more to fulfilling physical needs and some emotional needs, using money. As long as a man has money, he can get as many sugar babies as he wants. Some are happy with the choices they get, while some feel the void deep down.

As to which dating mode to choose, it depends on what men are seeking in their body, heart and mind.

Ultimately, we humans always want to choose the path that makes us feel the most fulfilled, depending on which stage we are in life.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 3 2024, 05:35 PM

This is quite a broad question. No two women offer the same things.

Also, top guys aren't always after good-looking women. Some prefer plain Janes.

Needs and wants change as time evolves.

Divorces are common nowadays.

Yes, you're right. There are many ways to win a woman's heart.

The wealth/career consideration is mainly for our offspring if we want to be mothers. We want financial stability to provide the best we can for our children.

If a woman doesn't want kids, she won't emphasise too much on the monetary aspect (unless she is materialistic and wants to flaunt). Normally, career-oriented women mainly want companionship and intimacy. They can earn their own money.

For sisterhood, if a woman fails her other 'sisters', she'll get labelled, chastised and ostracized by the group. Women are loyal to friendships and want to have good relationships with each other. Even if we can't give full support in terms of money or some other resources, we will still find ways to help our 'sisters'/friends and care for them. This is because women are highly social and communal, and we know that we sometimes need our friends' help, so we learn to give and take at an early age.

I think our mindset is different from men's in this case. Men don't have such strong bond within their own brotherhood, unless someone leads the group and set the rules, and all the bros agree to the the leadership and bro code (-- based on what I see in movies, not sure if this is true or not 🤔).

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Thanks for the video. It's a good one.

Over the years, I have learned to be more direct with men by telling them what I want. For example: "I'm feeling down right now. Can you accompany me for a while? Just listen will do."

& If I need a solution, I will ask them directly that I need a solution. If they don't know, I'll ask them if they know someone who can help.

Men have the tendency to fix things, but women don't need solutions all the time. Sometimes, we just want some companionship and listening, then we'll feel better.

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Yes, I agree totally that successful men need safe harbour.

My ex is still sticky to me after 8 years together, because he can't find his safe harbour with other women. With me, he can laugh, cry and be his boyish self. He is safe to express all his emotions to me. He doesn't tell me all his problems, but I know him well enough when to encourage him and when to give him space.

Unlike women, men need a mix of autonomy and intimacy. Too much encouragement will suffocate a man and emasculate him, while too much space will probably cause him to spiral inwards and feel uncared for. Women need to know when to push a man forward and when to pull him out of his own hole.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 3 2024, 07:37 PM

Your husband and son are blessed to have you. Yes, we need more women who understand men well and support them.

In my opinion, for men, emotional intelligence is something that is not being taught (by fatherly figures or male role models) from a young age. Hence, when men feel troubled, they don't know what to do with their emotions, and can only suppress themselves.

I think it's a vicious cycle, and probably the current/new generations of males can do something about it. Men's broken system is not something women can fix although we can be their supporters. There are already men who want to help and support other men, but they are not the dominant voice in the society.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 3 2024, 07:03 PM

Generally, women's choices of mates are influenced by sociocultural factors, media, and family upbringing.

In poor countries or poor families, most women are taught to marry up, if possible. Even in rich families, parents would want their daughters to marry someone of equal or higher status to preserve and grow family wealth and status.

Of course, there are poor/rich women who will marry 'down'-- only if they have no choices or no access to upper level guys, or they really love the average/lower class men.

It's probably the middle class women that are okay with dating and marrying average/equal mates. Not up, not down, just maintain the status quo.

As for men, some are okay with equal/lower level women, while some want higher level women. It's more largely influenced by their own choices and goals in life.

Just my personal observation, in general.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 3 2024, 07:20 PM

Thanks for your lovely reply. It reminds me of a poem that I read years ago... "The Road Not Taken" by Robert Frost:



I have an unusual life + an unusual personality. In my adult years, I did my MBTI test and found that I was an INFJ-- some of the rarest personalities, making up about 1-2% of the population. INFJs are known to have deep intuition, future-oriented vision, complex inner world with layers of thoughts and emotions, idealistic yet pragmatic, empathetic yet strategic. Basically, highly fluid and full of paradoxes + some may have spiritual abilities.

People often tell me that I should write all my stories, insights, emotions and thoughts into a book. Somehow, through the stories I share, people start seeing things from different perspectives, and realise something new. In their words, they feel that whenever they read my writing, it feels like they travel from earth to space and orbit around different planets, then back to earth again, and start to experience their earth life differently after the space adventure. I thought it was a good metaphor, and I felt glad I could give them such experiences.

I'm confused by your terminologies. Matchmaking and sugar dating are different.

Matchmaking: The goal of matchmaking is to help individuals find a long-term romantic partner, often with the intention of building a committed relationship, such as marriage or a serious partnership. Matchmaking focuses on compatibility in terms of values, goals, and lifestyle, and it is typically aimed at fostering a deep emotional connection.

Sugar Dating: Sugar dating involves a more transactional relationship where one party (the "sugar baby") receives financial support, gifts, or other material benefits from the other party (the "sugar daddy" or "sugar mama"). While emotional or romantic connections can develop, the primary goal is often the exchange of companionship or intimacy for financial support, rather than a long-term commitment or emotional bond.

So, which are you referring to?

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 4 2024, 01:57 PM

Yup, you're spot on.

In my earlier thread ("Confusing Male Behaviour"), I talked about a guy from my undergraduate years who asked to be in a relationship with me, and I said yes, I'd give him a chance to get to know each other better.

Then he asked if we could get physically intimate (non-sexual, e.g. holding hands, hugging, cuddling, kissing...). I said yeah, if we caught feelings for each other, we should just follow the natural flow.

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Until today, one month later, he still doesn't know how to proceed. He has initiated meeting me 8 times already... but until today, we still haven't met each other yet. Partly because of our work schedules, and partly because of his own reasons.

He would flirt with me online, ask if I missed him, if I liked him, etc... and then he'd disappear to process his own emotions + focus on his work...

and then he'd message me again after a few days/a week, and asked what I was doing, wanna meet or not, etc... and this cycle repeated itself for the Nth time.

Haih. Frustrating. I just let him be lah. I like him enough to be patient with him and give him the time to navigate his own emotions.



This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 6 2024, 04:38 AM

Suddenly, I'm reminded of this romantic relationship between Sesshomaru and Rin... in Inuyasha.



Sesshomaru is a stoic, powerful, and initially cold-hearted demon lord with a deep disdain for humans and a desire to prove his superiority. Over time, his character softens, especially due to his relationship with Rin. He values strength, honor, and independence, often keeping his emotions hidden.

Rin, on the other hand, is a kind, cheerful, and innocent human girl. Despite her tragic past, she remains optimistic and develops a strong trust in Sesshomaru, bringing out his protective and nurturing side. Her gentle nature contrasts with his stoicism, creating a unique dynamic.

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To further add why dating is hard for guys- even for top 10% men...

In my own situation, the new guy is a water sign (horoscope) while I'm a fire sign. He's a 高冷男 (cold and aloof man, highly disciplined and career-focused, doesn't smile) while I'm a 热情女 (Aries woman, hot and passionate, always hehehe hahaha). I guess opposites do attract.

My ex was also a super cool, emotionless guy until he met me... I felt he was some kinda robot or iceberg when we first met... and I couldn't detect that he liked me until he suddenly confessed... then he became highly abnormal and more lively. He said I 'jampi' him and he couldn't get me out of his mind. LOL.

I think the new guy is also experiencing the same effects... and he's fighting his feelings and urges hard. haha Honestly, I enjoy teasing him from time to time. hehe

Both my ex and the new guy are into military, politics and strategic studies... worked their way to the top in their career... but they fall for someone like me, so... in my ex's words, he said I made him pening kepala but in a good way...
That said, yeah, those top 10% men can be quite cold, aloof and distant as they face lots of pressure and competition in the corporate world... until they become reserved and repressed... to maintain a standard image of professionalism.

Hence, when they meet a woman who can melt them, it triggers a range of emotions within them: intrigued, overwhelmed, curious, hesitant, challenged, attracted, vulnerable, conflicted, fascinated, inspired...

Like ice being melted by slow fire, gradually...

Do I feel their coldness? Yeah, I do... but since they pursue me first and want intimacy from me, they show their soft sides to me. Knowing their personalities, I also get used to their needs for time and space apart to process their own emotions. To me, this is a good thing because it shows they do have deeper feelings than what appears on the surface. If I am a nobody to them or just another woman, they won't behave so abnormally.

Men behave a lot like rubber bands + hunter/predator. My role as a woman is to stay irresistible, attractive and mysterious + play games with them to spice up the relationship. This will help them to loosen up especially after being tensed at work + have mood for sxx and romance.



This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 6 2024, 05:56 AM

Ah, then you're using the platform for matchmaking purpose. It's not sugar-dating if you're looking for genuine relationship and emotional connection.

Your question makes me recall the conversations I previously had with several male friends. They used dating apps to flirt with and meet hot and sexy girls, and also paid for sex... and they told me about their lustful adventures. LOL.

Feeling amused, I listened to their stories of meeting different girls via apps or social media, what they did with those college girls or China/Viet/Thai girls or local prostitutes, how much they paid, what services they chose, how they felt, etc. (Yeah, I'm a good listener and open-minded ).

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As a woman/friend, I don't think I am in a position to tell men what to do, because they know what they are doing.

& Even if I tell them not to do it, they will still do it.

My only concern for them is... what they want versus what they do highly contradict each other. There is a strong dissonance.

What they want: a girlfriend who loves them, supports them, encourages them... then become wife and have family together...

What they do: play with hot chicks and pay for sex

Reason for doing so: Need some women to temporarily fill the void, settle their biological urges, and get rid of boredom and loneliness with some fun while waiting for the right woman to appear.

I think this is a common dilemma among men. Young men, especially, with raging hormones in their body and make them crave for women and sxx.

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Here's my simplified conversation with a male friend in April 2024. He used dating apps, Telegram, paid for sex and did lots of bad bad naughty naughty stuff...



Years ago, my ex-fiancé was upfront with me about how he used to tackle girls of different nationalities in his younger days. He came to 3 conclusions:

1) Girls who are too easy to get aren't attractive at all, no matter how good looking. He only pursued women who were virgins or had one ex-bf at most.

2) He never paid for sex because he felt it was disgusting to share the same woman with different men. Yeah, the prostitute looked pretty and sexy and got him aroused, but when it was time to do the actual act, his lil head refused and softened. Just yucks, he said. He couldn't do it. He didn't understand why other men could do it.

3) Sex without love is just so empty. Sex with love is the best sex ever.



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Last month, my new guy shared with me that he never paid for sex. He was highly self-disciplined and DIY only because he didn't wanna get STD or HIV. & if we are to have sxx, I need to get tested first.

Me: Okay... If we reach that stage of intimacy, yeah, I will get myself tested to give you the full assurance... (then he felt happy).

He told me that even when he was offered free sex, with women inviting him over and stripping themselves naked to seduce him, he said he touched la out of curiosity, but he wasn't aroused sexually. He just felt they were so cheapskate, and it was such a huge turn-off. He rejected their advances and went home. He didn't even take off his clothes.

This testifies the Chinese saying... 好男人不用管，坏男人管不了
(meaning: good men don't need to be controlled, while bad men cannot be controlled.)

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There's a reason these guys whom I date are in the Top 10%: they don't let their lil heads control them and sabotage themselves. Yeah, they play and flirt la, but they won't degrade themselves and their bodies with all sorts of crappy women. They have standards and criteria as to who they allow them into their world, and who can have access to their bodies. Not every woman can sleep with them.

Such good men are so rare nowadays... but they do exist. Most people don't know because... these men won't share much info about themselves with other men, and they also won't share much with just any women.



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So, for you (and other guys out there reading this), you decide which type of men you want to be and what type of women you want to let into your world.

You either value yourself, or you don't-- and with each choice comes its own pros and cons, short-term and long-term consequences.

This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 7 2024, 07:06 PM

hahaha... I like your analogy. Yeah, some men like to play numbers games, while some are highly targeted. Different strategies in courtship.

Yeah, it's true. I do know of repressed men who cracked lots of sex jokes even during business training and writing e-newsletters... and they didn't realise how crude and distasteful it was to their audience.

He's not la. We already had cybersxx together until he ejac. I suspect he has 感情洁癖 (emotional mysophobia/cleanliness OCD)... because when he pursued me, he asked lots of questions about my past relationship and sxx life. I reassured that I had one man only (and it's LDR lehh) AND I never had sxx with other men. The only reason I had sxx with my ex was because we were heading for marriage and ready to have children.

I told him, compared to other women, I was relatively clean with just one man in my 35 years of life, when other women/my peers had already had several bfs or slept around a lot with different men. I wasn't promiscuous... although I could be quite horny and kinky-- but to my male partner only. I would only have one sxx partner at a time because I seriously hated messy relationships and complications. Also, I felt my value as a woman would drop if I had too many men.



OK, back to story, the new guy accepted my answers, and told me he wanted the highest assurance before we had physical sxx, i.e. to get myself tested first. He said even condoms were not good enough for him. He wanted 100% totally safe and clean sex.

When he said these words, my admiration for him increased multifold because he was such a good boy. Such a rarity that deserves to be treasured by a woman who appreciates his value despite the lack of experience. I have respect to such men who are not controlled by their lil heads.

So yeah, some men like their women to be really 'clean and pure'. They don't like 'dirty' women. They don't want to be associated to such women.

In another instance, I do know another guy friend who suppressed his urges until he got married. He'd rather DIY and not touch his gf... even when the gf wanted sex and said it's okay for her. He refused her advances. When they travelled together, he wanted two separate rooms. He was totally v until he got married, and then he felt safe and secure enough to give himself to the gf-turn-wife.

If there's anything common between them, it'll be the fact that both men are highly spiritual/religious, although they practise different religions.

Such men are usually firm with their beliefs and principles... which is a good thing to women. We don't need to worry that they'll womanise and do all sorts of hanky-panky stuff behind our backs.


This post has been edited by Ralna: Oct 8 2024, 02:53 AM