And may I ask what you believe is real then?

So you believe in science and there’s no God?

My question was, and still, is simple .. you say this is nonsense? Okay.. so what do you believe in then?
A creator? Okay! So what do you believe about it then.. what’s your basis..
you don’t have to make a huge turn to dodge the bullet

No one is dodging any bullet but for the 3rd time,
answer the simple question.

What do you believe in? not this God? what God? Not a God? Just a Creator? What about it?
Its a SIMPLE QUESTION..
so you're an atheist? no? then what?
again , DONT DODGE.. go straight to the point.. answer the question

Read my replies..
I did not say you are an atheist..
I'm merely asking you to state what you believe in...you make claims that these 'monkey' stuff is false.. okay.. then pray tell what you believe that is real..
for the fourth time! lols.

Very good.. We can discuss biblically in this approach..
1 Corinthians 11: 29,30,"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."


DAMNATION... the best way to define it is to refer to the original greek text... KRIMA
which means
- Judgement/judgementS
- condemnation of wrong (severe or mild)

And if you would think this means "hell".. Remember. the Bible do not contradict itself..
Krima again can mean judgement of any kind/kindS.. not necessarily hell.. and in 1 Corinthians 11:29,30, we know its definitely NOT Hell because ? "....weak and sickly among you, and many sleep"
FOR THIS CAUSE.. it's an explanation of the 'KRIMA' received..

Hope the above enlightens you..

I wont go into the details of your understanding for each of those verses yet..
but to remind you on the definition of KRIMA..
I have also cross checked all 'damnations' or 'Krima'.. it is indeed as defined below..
- Judgement/judgementS
- condemnation of wrong (severe or mild)


Due to that, there's a need to read 1 Timothy 5 to understand the 'Krima', and Romans 13:2, for what their 'Krima' is.
But one thing is clear, Krima as shown in Romans 2:2 clearly shows the example Krima is used for JUDGEMENT.. not HELL

Romans 2:2 ,"But we are sure that the judgment (κρίμα/Krima) of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
1 Corinthians 6:7,"Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law (κρίμα/Krima) one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?"

Bible DO NOT contradict itself..
"...For this cause,.....weak... sickly among you.. sleep.."

Hope that clarifies your understanding on DAMNATION and KRIMA

Very good. Now you have pointed at me breaking down the verses.
So you are saying, me saying once saved forever saved , is MISINTERPRETATION because I highlight those verses.
Okay.. lets look at it.. and you go figure out what those words in English mean.

UNDERSTANDING JOHN 10:28
John 10:28,"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

1. "...I give.." - means? Jesus give right?
2. "....eternal life;" - means? FOREVER RIGHT? if Eternal is not forever, then okay, we have nothing to talk about anymore.
3. ".....they shall never perish.." - means? NEVER PERISH.. literally those words..
4. ".... Neither shall any man pluck them out.." - means? no man shall pluck them out.. literally those words..

UNDERSTANDING ANY CRAZY WEIRD CONDITIONS THAT YOU MAY THINK OF JOHN 10:28

Once Jesus gives you eternal life, you forever will have it
and i'm preempting your weird mindset.. that IF..YOU.. not me.. YOU.. IF... IF!.. you think God/Jesus will abandon His Children..
the following verses are SELF-EXPLANATORY..

AND YOUR CLAIMS I MISINTERPRET??

So okay, you say that ONCE SAVED , ALWAYS SAVED is misinterpreted..
why not i rephrase it..
Once Jesus gives you eternal life, you forever will have it(".....they shall never perish.." + ".... Neither shall any man pluck them out..")
And this is just based on 1 verse, while MANY MANY OTHER VERSES have the same meaning..


Conclusion
Question1 - is this "Once Jesus gives you eternal life, you forever will have it" wrong? if so, are you trying to say John 10:28 is wrong?
Question 2 - is this "Once Jesus gives you eternal life, you forever will have it" not the same with "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED" ? if so, arent you conflicting yourself with the BIBLE?

And if you DONT AGREE.. please.. i would LOVE to hear how you explain away John 10:28..

Let's breakdown your reply into a few segments if you allow me to.
1. classic Protestant understanding of the Lord's Supper is merely a symbol

I don't think you understand fully the Lord's Supper
1 Corinthians 11:24," And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me."
"...in remembrance of me."
1 Corinthians 11:26,"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."
"...shew the Lord's death till he come."
1 Corinthians 11:29,"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."
"....not discerning the Lord's body."

all your questions are answered in the Bible itself.
- Its not merely a symbol, its done in remembrance to show Lord's death.
- it causes different degrees of judgement, because the person show no discern of the Lord's body

2. Since Krima is also used for those not keeping the faith, I do not see how your understanding is in harmony with Scripture.
The scriptures are in harmony.
Krima is judgement.
And in most cases about sin, or in the event of not believing in Jesus, the 'Krima' is then elaborated further.
exp;
Matthew 23:33,"..damnation of hell?"
Luke 20:47,".... greater damnation."
Romans 3:8,"...whose damnation is just."
John 5:29,"...unto the resurrection of damnation."
and so on..

You cant use an ADVERB or NOUN to represents HELL.
Like you cant just say HIGH or HIGHEST to say its surely heaven ? Right?
The only thing you can say is in JUDGEMENT.. its surely because of something WRONG..
like what you can say HIGH or HIGHEST.. is some place or some thing above.

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 2 2024, 01:47 PM

Are you confused? Not to SHEEP?
Read John 10:27," My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
THEY! = Sheep!
And subsequently John 10:28,"And I give unto them eternal life.."
THEM!!
Conclusion - Obviously your claims are FALSE. Cos you conveniently change John 10:28 to suit your own understanding, with NO BIBLE VERSES OR EXPLANATION

Where is Your UNDERSTANDING, Random cross reference?
You claim that John 17:6-12 is for a cross reference.. Where in the verse can it ever be cross referenced?
Can't you see how random you just simply pluck from here pluck from there and then make up your own story?
Even if you wanna pluck, you gotta EXPLAIN it FROM THE BIBLE! not according to how you like it to look like..


Truly Saved Christians
1 John 3:9,"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Which part of this are you confused?
"Whosoever is born of God" - who is this for?
"...doth not commit sin" - what does this mean?
"...and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" - Plain English, I dont even have to explain.

Let's circle back to it since there's lack of explanation

Discrepancy of using Krima
I explained, Krima is a noun/adverb
It's used in different degrees... take for example the word offering, gifts, guilt, sad, happy.. THESE ARE ALL NOUN/ADVERBS..
it is expected to have different degrees in it's meaning.
So understanding this, how would there be a discrepancy? You have GREAT sadness, LOW sadness, HIGH sadness, DEEP sadness..
and on the note of different degrees, i answer you with a bible verse
Galations 6:7,"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"

Lord's Supper
I see your reference of Lord's Supper to the Old testament practices and law of sacrifices..
But I think we ought to be mindful the purpose of sacrifices is that when one breaks the law..
and now we are no longer under the law (I'm sure with you, you know those verses I'm referring to)..
Now if we're going to go to assume what Paul knew...
let's use the BIBLE for confirmation
Romans 3:19, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
My question to you, are we under the law, or under grace/faith?

Galations 2:16,"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
My next qeustion to you,are we justified by the law (law of sacrifices) or by the faith of Christ?

so Galations 2:16 is wrong ?
Or Romans 6:14,"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
or Galations 3:23,"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed."
or Galations 3:25,"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

and if this verse isnt clear enough that LAW OF SACRIFICES are over?
Ephesians 2:15, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

Feel free to share why you think the laws of sacrifices are still relevant during Lord's Supper

P/s. All of the above were written by Paul no?

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 2 2024, 03:00 PM

No worries..
let's break it down to him into simpler segments

Lord's Supper compared to the practices of sacrifices (as by the LAW)
1. Living under law vs living under grace/faith - can we agree that it is by faith ?
2. Living under the Laws of Christ.. from Galations 6:2 i presume?
---> Living or fulfilling ? Fulfilling ISNT IT?
3. The purpose of sacrifice
---> is it not because one is under the Law, hence the need for sacrifices ? Due to the separation of God and Humans in OT
----> Leviticus 17:11
----> Was it not clearly mentioned in Ephesians 2:15, there is no longer a separation anymore because of Jesus.. and the ultimate sacrifice has already been paid...

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 2 2024, 03:16 PM

like i consistently say, i dont care who this UW is, show it from the Bible.. and let the BIBLE talk

was previously quoted to him, but his argument is because the holy communion, is similar to the sacrifice in the old testament, so hence his point that anyone that eat and drink unworthily, like in OT, equals to death.. and that was his basis of argument on the word DAMNATION

my bad, i thought i was replying to him instead of you

Your style of CROSS-REFERENCING and CHERRY PICKING
Matthew 10:16
You took the word sheep, and assumed it for apostles..
and Only looked at John 10:16 when Jesus told the apostles they are sheep in the midst of wolves..
indeed the apostles are sheep, cos they believed..
But DONT IGNORE..
Matthew 10:6 ,"But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
so if we use your 'sheep' assumption, are you trying to say LOST APOSTLES of the house of Israel ?
NO RIGHT?
cos from the very start , you planted the idea its ONLY for the apostles.. Bible did not say so.
V16 is merely sheep looking for sheep ...

Matthew 26:31
Why are you referencing an Old Testament? and not dwell into it ?
This is from Zechariah 13:7,"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."
And Jesus is quoting it , not to say the disciples are sheep.. but in fulfilling the prophecy, and is referring to EVERYONE
And you wanna say im misinterpreting it?
Look what Peter said to back this fact..
Matthew 26:33,"Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended."
"ALL MEN.. "
Evidence and proof Jesus in v31, "...All ye shall be offended.."

so again I ask you, where in the Bible does it say sheep is ONLY apostles???
You cant find it cos its not true..


AGAIN , the Bible SHOWS YOU WHO IS THE SHEEP
John 10:7,"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep."
John 10:9, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
Mind you this is the SAME DOOR... and the BIBLE clearly telling you... "......by me if any man..."
Hello.. ANY MAN.. NOT APOSTLES!!

Dont go saying these are opinions cos all of the above are merely words i take from the Bible..
Your claim apostles are sheeps, THATS an opinion cos no where in the Bible is it said so...

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 2 2024, 05:24 PM

Did the Bible say otherwise?
What did the Bible say about this?

I know churches who see it as if it transformed into the real body and real blood of the Lord, another Catholic practice and tradition that came after the Protestant..
Good thing is, the BIBLE is the one source of truth and all can be explained from the Bible itself..

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 2 2024, 04:23 PM

Let's reply your confusion part by part..
Matthew 10:16
Who were "you" referred to..

Did you read my reply?
Sheep .. looking for sheep..
I did not the sheep did not include the apostles.. And what i certainly did not see and say is the exclusive rights of sheeps only for apostles..
And i showed you in Matthew 10:6.. dont ignore la please..

"By your warped logic, you are falsely saying that every sheep or Christian/believer have and will stumble and deny Christ"
By your weak understanding, you put words into verses..
V31,"Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."
1. This is a reference to the OT of how Jesus fulfills the prophecy.. again.. sheep is in reference to NOT just apostles as in Matthew 10:6 and 16.
and v31, This verse was in reference to ? ,"..this night.." Jesus is talking about that current moment =.=
and what is the offence ? (the capturing of Jesus)
and btw.. " have and will stumble and deny Christ", thats your confusion to take that to apply even till today after Jesus resurrected..

John 10:15,16
i overlooked that because of the many shocking misunderstandings you have of the Bible, including this.
and i stand corrected that's John instead of Matthew.
John 10:7,"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep."
John 10:9, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
Mind you this is the SAME DOOR... and the BIBLE clearly telling you... "......by me if any man..."
Hello.. ANY MAN.. NOT APOSTLES!!

and continuing on to your John argument
the above John 10:7,9, already said clearly "any man"

'Other sheep' - is your own words its for Gentiles? other Christians? or there's a bible verse that refers as such?
See the danger?? ITS YOUR OWN WORDS when the Bible in previous few verses, CLEARLY talks about ANY MAN

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 2 2024, 05:30 PM

"you are falsely teaching that the sheep scourged in the synagogues and brought before governors and kings"
You like to add nonsense at any opportunity..
"You..as SHEEP.." Illustration of APOSTLES AS SHEEP..
"..Therefore..".. Subsequently what you (Apostles) need to do...
So what are you yapping those added words which i didnt say?

I've said it enough of times with supporting bible verses.
SHEEPS = Apostles OR Saved Christians
not SHEEPS = ONLY Apostles.. no where is it said..
But i showed you evidence from the BIBLE already.. why you ignore?
John 10:9

Stop ignoring those verses that you dont agree on, and then move on to distract it with another. please..


"other sheep" is not referring to Gentile Christians
Hello , you very funny a..
1. I proved to you John 10:9, refers to ALL other sheeps including everyone else..
2. I proved how wrong your 'chronology' is and how mixed up you randomly match it in past replies, including son or perdition and JUDAS.. we had a LONG BIble verse to those.. please bother to read back and understand.. Dont ignore the BIBLE
3. You learn that you need to prove that other sheeps refer to ONLY to gentiles, now you ask me to proof a verse that talks about non gentiles but not sheep?
you throw another verse again ..
4. And quote Galations 2:9-14, nothing wrong with it.. Yes its for gentiles.. BUT halo.. what has it got to "Other Sheep"?
Where in your Bible you find "other sheep' in Galations 2:9-14??
You pull your own dots make your own assumptions and conclusion?
My goodness... dont interpret the Bible like that without any basis.. thats how false doctrine starts!!

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 2 2024, 06:57 PM