what makes whiskas bad is not the nutrient % but the ingredients. Low quality ingredients, alot of additives, preservatives, colouring, flavouring and alot of filler ingredients that make the food filling but no nutritional benefit.

Whiskas is like eating colourfull chicken flavoured flour snack food
RC is like eating chicken nuggets
High quality hollistic brand is like eating roast chicken

All might have 30% protein but the source of the protein is different

RC kitten is a safe alternative to babycat

This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 18 2008, 05:18 PM

Its difficult to tell when they are pregnant, even for a vet.

Most important: If she gives birth, do not touch mom or the hoglets at all, leave them alone, do not even try to peek at them, or she will probably EAT them.

heres a guide on how to prepare and what to do
http://www.hedgehogworld.com/content/view/44/42/

This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 19 2008, 03:36 AM

This is untrue of hedgehogs, but true for some types of other animals.
For hedgehogs there is no difference between albino and any other colours in terms of lifespan, susceptibility to disease or behavior.

I think that possibly what he means is someone gave him one, or brought a hedgehog to his house.
Both the wild porcupine or escaped hedgehog voluntarily coming to his house are very unlikely

Is he a male? If he has something in the middle of the tummy that looks like a bellybutton he is male
And if the hard lump you feel runs along that to the base of the tail or the hard lump IS the bellybutton then dont worry and stop molesting the poor guys manhood

If not then i dont really know what it could be, altho it is sadly true the hedgehogs are prone to cancerous growths.


This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 21 2008, 05:43 PM

Oh wow poor thing! omg i wonder where he could have come from @_@
might want to take him for a vet checkup, not just because of the lump but you dont know where he has been, what hes been eating and what happened to him. Plus you have other animals in the house.

edit: the 'bellybutton' is not really a bellybutton btw

edit2: Guys , thinking about the poor lost hedgehog being outside for a few days is making me so sad.... The weather has been rainy, no safe place to hide and sleep
I cant imagine what it must have been like. Did he get wet? did he get harassed by stray cats or dogs? did he fall down form a high place? Was he hungry? scared? cold?


This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 21 2008, 06:29 PM

Whoa ....actually i think that is a Long Eared Hedgehog, totally different species from the ones commonly kept and bred as pets. (google the pictures and compare the difference)

Long eared hedgehogs are a wild species native to central Asia. Whereas the pet trade African hedgehog that we keep is a cross between the Algerian and white bellied hedgehogs (so actually it does not exist in the wild)

I dont know much about the long eared. It is supposed to be more physically active and lively (because its more wild?)


Long Eared Hedgehog



link in case pic wont work
http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/media/bl...ed-Hedgehog.jpg
http://www.waza.org/conservation/projects/...chinus_p001.JPG

African Hedgehog



Links
http://z.about.com/d/exoticpets/1/0/P/-/cupid1001053e.jpg
http://www.seaworld.org/Animal-info/animal...hedgehog-01.jpg

This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 21 2008, 09:05 PM

Indeed it is not native, this is not Central Asia

Aik, not that i know of. I went there early last month.

You meat he got fatter? Demon is getting longer but not much fatter i wish he was more bulat.
Considering how hes favorites are babycat and mealies you would have thought he would be a fatty! .Oh well, lol, hes probably lean from all the wheeling.

Dont worry, Just play with him regularly and im sure he will be back to how he was in no time

Aiya....why did you buy Orijen

20 % fat is still kinda ok, (keep in mind your combining it with kitten which also has some additional fat)
But 45% protein is 15% above the recommended lvl ( 30% )
that means it has 50% more protein than he should have

Short term feeding of this diet at his age is still ok, but long term this high fat and very high protein diet is not good....kidney stone...fatty liver disease

Once again you should try to keep to a good quality food with below 15% fat and as close to 30% protein as you can

This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 23 2008, 04:51 PM

Dog Orijen at 42% protein and 16% fat is ok on fat content but if its only one of two brands in the mix, the protein lvl is still too high

That person is using orijen as one of fivedifferent brands, so the excess amount of protein may be balanced out.
Now i personally support for mixing a few brands
But for those with only a single hedgehog to feed that many brands in one mix is not a likely option, at the most also 3 brands, most likely will be 2 brands. More than that is only a reasonable choice for people with multiple pets to feed.

Good quality holistic brands are of course good, but too much protein no matter how good the quality will still have negative effects on their kidneys, the fact is that hedgehog kidneys simply cannot process it as well as the cats and dogs that it was formulated for can.

So yes buy a good quality kibble, but dont buy a good quality kibble that will have a bad effect on their health. Its not like there are no other choices

Edit: i just realized i know the person who's site you linked , Courtney only feeds a small amount of orijen a few times a week, specifically because of the protein lvl.
She currently has three hedgies, Kismet, Cuda and Vette. Hemi has passed on some time ago due to cancer.

This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 23 2008, 10:33 PM

I think you misunderstand the points im trying to make la...the issue here is not about whether to mix or not to mix, i already mention many many times, it is better to mix. No question about it
frankly i think not mixing at all is the lazy way out.

Also i dont have anything against holistic...i only have problems with the ones that have unsuitable protein lvls .
Did you note that the other brands you suggest are indeed listed in the list i have been linking?

Most sample packs last about 1 month for 1 hedgehog, No matter how you freeze, vacum pack, sealed container store the food, once the original packaging is opened, it will slowly lose its 'goodness' over time.
Thus if you buy more than a 3 month supply its quite a waste.
This is why i say your average single hedgehog owner, without other pets that can eat the same food, should probably not mix more than three brands. Sample pack size was already factored in.
I have two cats that are on a mixture of 4 brands so its a non issue for me. However not everything that my cats eat is suitable for the hedgehogs...
Now yes, when you mix it in when two brands it will not harm them "that much", but why cause that little bit of harm at all when you dont have to?
Anything with a protein lvl above 40% should never be fed unless its used sparingly as part of a large mix
when your mix is small that 'little bit of harm' is totally unnecessary, why do it?

And, i did not at any point ask her to get rid of the pack already purchased, i said


Now, the points i have been trying to make are
Feeding orijen mixed with only RC kitten in the long term is NOT ok
Only feeding orijen or innova evo, or giving it in large amounts is NOT ok

This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 24 2008, 02:39 AM

Yes many people are feeding them Orijen only, Because they don't realize that it is bad for their health.
That is exactly why ive being talking so much about how it is not good for them.
Because i realized so many people here on LYN are feeding them a food that they think is good for them, but actually isnt.


Hedgehog diet is something that even experts are still debating on, New things are discovered all the time.
'Hedgehogs need a low fat high protein diet' made many people think the more protein the better.
Then people started wondering why so many hedgehogs that were being fed 'good food' were having urine and kidney issues.
Too much protein was confirmed to be the reason.

Thats so cute, i really like pictures of hedgies in that half balled up pose.
90% of the time Demon refuses to ball up, He will just try to turn back around or just chill there with his legs all spread out ><.

Thanks for coming by yesterday guys, we initially thought of asking you two up for abit, but you had a friend with you so both of us paiseh to ask

LOL family habit

Wonder if they can even survive

If you re read it carefully i was talking about high protein causing kidney problems only in hedgehogs that were on a specific type of diet

The comment was not intended to be taken out of context and applied to dogs and cats, or any other pets............

As far as kidney problems in cats and dogs, i have already pointed out a couple of pages back basically the same things you pointed out ( too many grain 'fillers' causing alkaline lvls in the urine to rise thus causing the formation of stones )

The points that you bring up about the quality of ingredients and the quality of the source of was also already brought up

I also pointed out many many many many times Orijen is a good brand for cats and dogs, but not hedgehogs.

Dont take it personally if i sound annoyed, your concerns and taking the trouble to write are much appreciated, but im getting annoyed at people defending good quality holistic food and orijen in response to my comments because there is no need to

for the one millionth time, and I am getting very sick of repeating myself

I personally support good quality holistic food with stringent manufacturing standards

I personally support brands like orijen (in fact im feeding evo to my cats)

I personally support the mixing of several good quality holistic brands

But i do not support the feeding Orijen, Innova Evo, and any damn brand that has anything much higher than 35% protein to hedgehogs because it is a fact that it causes hedgehogs to develop kidney stones

You did not 'offend' me
surely you can understand that i am tired of being misunderstood having to repeat myself

I already said i appreciate what you have to say and i hope you do not take my short temperedness personally



I never suggested that feeding lower standard brands is a good idea

I suggest feeding something that has both high quality AND suitable nutrient lvls

There are many good quality holistic brands that have the right amount of protein for hedgehogs, choose those.

Avoid the bad quality ones even though they have the right nutrient lvl
Avoid the ones that have inappropriate nutrient lvls even though they are good quality

And yes, i think this logic applies "IRREGARDLESS OF TYPE OF PET"


I did also say a couple pages back dont choose a low quality food just because it has the right nutrient %
Its incredibly illogical to suggest that inferior quality food is good for hedgehogs just because the protein is just right.

Edit: Perhaps you thought i was suggesting lower standard brands are better because i did not specifically say they were not. I didnt feel i needed to stress on it because i feel its common sense to not choose something that is of questionable quality.




This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 26 2008, 01:05 AM

What the actual finished % is we will never know unless you have inside info or access to a lab to analyze the ingredients

but this is a moot point, because

Food that has anything much higher than 35% on the label has been deemed to have too much protein for hedgehogs
so it very well could be that their real protein tolerance is much lower than 30%

But since we know they should not have too much, and that good quality foods with roughly 30% protein on the label are not known to cause kidney problems, It still makes perfect sense to avoid foods with anything higher than 35% on the label

Im not going to start going into the fact that we dont even know if some brands are acurate and some brands are not because the fact is, we just dont know and wildly speculating about what if is going to make us both crazy ><



Actually hedgehog diet is still very highly debated, we do not even know for a fact if that is correct. No one knows what is best for them so it is not recommended to attempt feeding a 'natural' diet

We do know that insects are their primary 'natural' food source, but we also know that feeding them only insects is not enough.

What else to feed is the part that no one is really clear about, hedgehogs are insectivores but they are also opportunists, in the wild they will try to eat a very wide variety of things
Since they eat meat, eggs, fruits, insects, fish, veggies...pretty much everything its very hard to determine what is the 'best' and no one knows.


A 'natural' diet is not a safe option at this point in time, unless your willing to experiment and test at the risk of your hedgehogs health.
As pet owners we have no choice to stick with what we know works, and avoid what we know does not work.
But you can be sure that if they manage to figure it out, i will go for it.


Yes i really agree, but only when you know exactly how much and what to feed. For animals that have been domesticated for a long time this is possible since chances are that accurate information can be easily acquired. We have only just started the 'domestication' of hedgehogs. In fact the hedgehog we commonly keep as pets does not even exist in the wild, it is a hybrid bred for the pet trade.



As already stated in previous posts, Solid Gold Katzen Flocken is the 'best' brand that i know we have locally, And no i am not a nutritionist and i didnt pull the info out of my pants. I shared my knowledge acquired through research and discussions with people more knowledgeable than me. People who have years of experience. Can i ask what makes you so sure that the research hasn't already been done by others and why you think that the information is not accurate or true?
I did not just google and instantly post it here, i researched, asked questions, i got opinions, i got second opinions, then researched and asked more questions. I am not trying to irresponsibly be 'pro' and i do not naively believe everything i read. I think very carefully about what the effect of any 'advice' i try to give could be. I know its not fashion tips im giving here, it concerns living much beloved pets.

Do you suggest that i just keep quiet about the fact that i found out that too much protein can be bad for their health because im not a nutritionist? That i am arrogant to use the word 'fact'? That i am giving false info without basis? I really hope that you dont have such a low opinion of me....that would be very depressing indeed since i have a good opinion of you.

I am merely passing the knowledge on for the benefit of everyone, i stick to my opinions and state my arguments strongly because i cant sit down and just care about my own hedgehog only. Not because im trying to act smart or look good. I have a good and fulfilling life, i do not need that kind of attention.

I thought for two whole months after i found out about this hedgehog protein thing before carefully letting people on LYN know. I was worried that people would not believe me and get upset because many people were already doing it and saying it was good and ok.

Its too easy to close one eye and not care about what others are doing.

This post has been edited by Cimredopyh: Feb 26 2008, 02:36 AM

This is not war la, this is called passion for animals

I always thought whitepalace was a she ><