hey guys... so today i had an argument with my friend... he said DotA is RPG game because it involves character building. However, i believe DotA is a strategy game because it involves resource gathering and team works...

So, what is you guys opinion on what genre is DotA belong to? Strategy or RPG?

According to Wikipedia,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game
Role-playing game, in which players assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create narratives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_strategy
In computer gaming, real-time strategy (often abbreviated as RTS) is a genre of wargames which take place in real time.

Serious discussion only please.

dota is no game!!!! it's a matter of life and death!!!

seconded for truth.

Dota is in no way a full RTS game.

You do not gather resources , you hunt for resources. This resembles all the RPG games like Maple , FF , where you control 1 or a few characters to hunt for that resource.

You do not teamwork with your own units , basically cause you control only 1 unit in most cases.

You have nothing to do with base building whatsover , you just control 1 unit in most cases.

Dota in no way is a full RTS game. May have elements of it but it is NOT. minimal micromanagement is needed compared to true RTS games.

Well, its not a true blue RPG in the vein of Baldur's Gate or Final Fantasy, but it definitely is one.

The genre you're looking for is Action RPG... Basically, RPGs that have pretty much all the narrative and questing stripped down to cater for pure action-based gameplay. You still have all the regular hallmarks of an RPG like character progression, inventory and item management and of course... stats based combat.

Games in this genre include Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Titan Quest, etc.


Plus, in your quote for the definition of an RTS, you only quoted the part that suited your opinion... Here's the rest:


Still think DotA's an RTS?

This post has been edited by H@H@: Aug 31 2007, 11:15 PM

Actually there is no specified definition for RTS... 10 ppl can come out with 10 different definitions. I somehow disagree that a RTS must gather resources and control large number of armies.

What game genre is Maple and FF? RPG?

Contradictions

You are indeed a legendary poster .... big LOL at you

guys , TS is the guy who said west ham is invovled in match fixing and thats why sheffield united not happy .... legendary strike backs lol

This post has been edited by befitozi: Sep 2 2007, 04:00 AM

Then why did you quote Wikipedia then when they're definition is totally different from yours? Actually, why even have this thread if everyone is going to have their own definitions?

Hell, let's just throw away with "genres" since no one can agree on what a genre really is. Let's just keep the descriptions as detailed as possible so no one could possibly misunderstand what a game is.

So, when Starcraft 2 comes out, it'll be something like this:
Genres are there for a reason. If genres are solely based on individuals perceptions, technically speaking, ANY game could be in any genre.
Observe:
DotA
- First Person Shooter:- I mean, first person doesn't necessarily mean first person view right? I'm still controlling the character in the first person; I'm not using anyone to control them. Plus, you can shoot shit in DotA so therefore its an FPS.

- Racing :- A race is generally a contest to get to one objective faster than your competitor. Since in DotA, you have to race against your opponent to destroy their tree/throne, therefore DotA is a racing game.

- Flight Simulator :- Do the dragons in DotA not simulate flying in the game? Flight sim it is!

- Football :- Football involves two teams on opposing ends trying to score a goal in the opposition corner. Now, a goal is also known as an objective and since the objective of DotA is to destroy the the Tree/Throne at the opposition corner, therefore DotA is a football game (Come to think of it, this definition could also include Battlefield and a slew of team based MP games)

- MMORPG :- Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
Massive : To me, massive is having more than 5 players Check
Multiplayer: Needs more than one player to play Check
Online: Can be played on B.Net Check
Role-Playing: You have a role in the game... As a hero to defeat the enemy Check
Game: Its fun Check
Conclusion: DotA = MMORPG

... and I could go on and on and I can do this for pretty much EVERY game out there. Doesn't matter that some of these definitions are full of shit right? I mean, according to you EVERYONE's definition is correct no matter how retarded or stupid they are aren't they?


If you really want to argue your point on whether DotA is an RTS or not, use proper points and not immediately dismiss the general consensus. That just makes you look like an arrogant bugger trying to piss ppl off.

The bigger question remains though; Are you intentionally doing this to rile up the RTS gamers in this forum? I know how they sort of mocked you silly in the Starcraft 2 thread and nothing irks an RTS gamer more than DotA (They're eternal enemy) being considered to be an RTS.

Go read this
http://sport.scotsman.com/football.cfm?id=1301382007

and this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtm...ufnsheff116.xml

it really happened last season but i didn't see any discussion in the football Lounge.

FPS, Racing, Flight Simulator, Football(what?) are definately out. There are plenty of strategy games that do not require you to build buildings and train armies.

Sacrifice - strategy game but no need to build buildings... just steal enemy souls..
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/sacrif...=result;title;0

Caesar IV - strategy game but no need to gather resources
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/caesar4/index.html

RollerCoaster Tycoon - no harvest no battle but building (yes)
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/roller...coon/index.html

SimCity 4 - no harvest no destroy... just build
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/simcity4/index.html

Wikipedia mentions that ("harvest, build, destroy") are key components for strategy game yet the games i listed above do not have all the strategy game characteristics yet. You see they are still listed as "other strategy games" at gamespot. If you click on the "other strategy games" you will find the games listed above.

http://www.gamespot.com/games.html?type=ga...owse;category;6

The definition is not always right.

dude , the reason sheffield not happy is because of carlos tevez , nothing to do with match fixing .... i LOL at you again

Does it even matter? RPGs need a story and role for the player to fit in. I'd call dota an RPG if we see people actually playing in character, thinking and chatting like how the hero in question should be doing. I only do that occasionally, and only if i get techies. It's fun yelling DON'T RUN, WE ARE YOUR FRIENDS when you're going at full speed with a haste rune towards a target who knows it.

Otherwise, I'd consider dota an RTS. A dumbed down version for players to micromanage sure enough, but still more of an RTS. You have resources, you have units (allied, forest, dominated/summoned), a base to take care of strategically. Really doesn't feel like an RPG to me.

In some way I agreed your point on definition is not always right, especially when people just simply go copy and paste definition from wikipedia and believe what it say is right. Wikipedia can only be used as a reference and not to be used as an exact or layman term, correct answer, as bear in mind that, anyone can contribute to wikipedia.

And back to the topic, I seriously doubt what is presented by wikipedia on the definition of Strategy. Harvest, build and destroy ?? Hello ?? We are in 21st century and frankly that definition is only suitable 10 years ago where all RTS game are almost alike but not suitable for strategy games nowadays. Strategy games is in a period of transition right now as every developers out there are trying to make something different. So to me, as long as a particular game involve strategy thinking, resources handling, army formation, building placing, etc etc and involving controlling armies/race as a whole would be categorized as a strategy game.

RPG is more towards to controlling one or more character and most of the time, you are stuck with that character(s) until game over. Dota is similar to Neverwinter Night and/or Baldur's Gate alike so it's definitely a RPG game, hmm... I guess it's not a even consider as a game, it's just a mod.

Oh and btw, Caesar IV, Tycoon series and SimCity series are belongs to Strategy games, but they are categorized into a smaller category of Strategy, Simulation. Sacrifice I'm not too sure as the game been there for quite some time, cant remember exactly how the game looks like.

And may I know, the point of this argument ?? From the way I see it, even if the world sees dota as a strategy game, you still cant change the fact that, it's just a mod.

to me its RPG in an RTS environment.

Ok, I'll bite.
Sacrifice - Technically you can build a building in this game (Manaliths) so this is out. Plus, the way this game functions, YOU are the base.
Caesar IV - Dude, this game is ALL about resource gathering. There's like 15 different farms and resource gathering structures you can build to collect natural resources. Where the hell did you get the idea that there isn't resource gathering in this? Anyway, this game is more city simulator than RTS (The combat in this game is minor at best)
Roller Coaster Tycoon - This is NOT an RTS... Hell there's not even COMBAT in the game.
Simcity 4 - Same as above

So, you've given me 2 RTS games that still adhere to the traditional RTS model and 2 others that have no relation at all. Now, I know you're just pulling games out of your ass. Please quote proper examples next time. If you want to be taken seriously, use proper examples.

Anyway, if you must know, the core elements of an RTS are:
Base building/management
Combat using direct control of armies
Resource gathering/management

As long as an RTS has all of these (Or at least variations on one of these), its an RTS. DotA, pretty much only passes the resource gathering part.

Now, if we were to look at the core elements of an Action RPG:
Individual-based Combat heavy which rely heavily on stats
Inventory/Item management
Levels/Experience
Various styles of play using classes/roles, etc.

You'll see that DotA fits this almost perfectly.



Now, instead of us trying to defend your crap attempts at saying Dota's an RTS, how's about you show that DotA ISN'T an RPG. That make more sense? I mean, you should be able to give points and counter points for both sides of the fence right? Your argument is flawed otherwise.

This post has been edited by H@H@: Sep 4 2007, 12:00 AM

most of the efforts to by some people to show that dota is a rts game is due to the fact that they realise that the things you need to master and do in dota is FAR FAR less then a true RTS like Frozen Throne. they wanna relieve themselves from the fact that they are playing a far simplier game by bringing up the 'status' from a mod , to a rts ... what they should be doing is accept the fact that dota is not a rts game but something else which is special and different, something which has its own advantages and disadvantages ...


This post has been edited by befitozi: Sep 2 2007, 11:10 PM

Micromanage?
ZZZZ...........i wont call that micro. You control one unit and there is no macromanagement.
If controlling unit in dota is micro, then id say Diablo and WoW also requires micro.

Taking care of your 5 dragoon vs 3rines, a tank and few vulture with mines without losing any of your unit is micro (see pimpest plays 2006). Because you manage each unit. That is the definition of micromanagement to me. Pls cut the crap that DotA requires micro. It doesnt even exist in DotA.

there's no proper storyline in DotA at all.. how would that call an RPG??!!

we do not need to build anything beside characters.... it's not an RTS either...

It's just a piece of crap to me.

Anyway,i do believe TS want to cause trouble around here after the chaos in SC2 thread.

Nuff said.No point arguing with people like him.

Christ.. flame war again..

Games like simcity,rollecoster tycoons and etc are not RTS. They are given a new category which are call simulators game or god games.

back to topic

Dota cant be a RTS since RTS is managing more that one unit in the game.

Err dota is not exactly resources manging also. Since you cant control the flow of cash.

Dota is a action MMORPG to be precise.

Since the game intergrates leveling, abilties ,stats and PVP(player vs player) into 1 game. Minusing all the story telling and quest.

Nowadays genre are not more fixed to merely FPS,RTS, and MMORPG nowadays.

and 1 more thing.. ( dont believe 100% anything from Wikipedia, cos anyone can input those facts.)

This post has been edited by redeye84: Sep 3 2007, 11:17 AM

its not an mmorpg, cause the map is like 2mb of file.

I think the closest definition by far would be H@H@'s definition.

To me its more of a Mulitplayer (Not Massive) Online RPG.

Since its only a SINGLE controllable unit with character progression. Same like diablo, neverwinter nights, dungeon siege etc.

Although Warcarft 3 is an RTS game the DotA custom map isn't. You should try other custom maps of Warcraft 3 too like footies, loap, tower defense etc. Its all in the same league (ie just mere custom maps).

I think its close to the PVP aspect of guild wars (though you don't level up that much in 1 match of guild war).

But basically its just another custom map of Warcraft 3.

no lar Warcraft III is definitely a combination of RPG and RTS but for Dota it's only RTS because there is no character story of development, cheers btw the Warcraft I and II is RTS cause they haven't implement the "Hero", heck i play Dota from starting of V5 map to V6 nobody ever touch the topic lol

PS: i found so many noob here

Well technically there is. You have to help your army defeat the other's army. Guild Wars PvP has similar premises for its matches and nobody really calls it anything less or more than an RPG.

Hmm, now when I think about it, do you guys think that story = RPG and no-story w/ top-down view combat = RTS? That seems to be the root argument for some of you.

Retarded ain't it?

Its not an MMORPG because it lacks a persistent online world with more than 100 players.

You say that Warcraft I & II are RTS' simply because they haven't implemented heroes...

Now, let's take a logical progression from that definition shall we?
RTS without heroes = RTS
Therefore,
RTS with heroes = RTS/RPG

BUT,
You also mention that DotA is an RTS without the RPG elements because it lacks a story.
Which means that:
RTS/RPG without story = RTS

Now, if we combine the two, they should both point to the same conclusion:
RTS without heroes AND RPG without story = RTS

So, let's add dota into the equation:
RTS without heroes = RTS != DotA
RPG without story = RTS = DotA

Hence,
!Dota AND DotA != RTS

Conclusion,
DotA not an RTS since it doesn't satisfy both the conditions that you set.

Come back when you can construct your arguments properly please.




Now, lack of story does NOT mean it cannot be an RPG... Let me quote you some RPGs that lack a story when it comes to multiplayer combat:
Guild Wars (Solely about PvP and not PvE)
Freedom Force (Basically Team DM)
Fallout Tactics

Based on your own definitions are these not RPGs then?

but but a gajillion ppl are loogged in on bnet and playing dota at the same time. that qualifies as mmo right?

Key word: Persistent World. (ok, "words")

Which means gajillion ppl logged in on a server playing in the same game at the same time. Not in different localized version of games.

well. MMORPG in the sense where u have a small party and go out to PVP.



Dota techincally have a story you know, its aint very depth but what the hay... Each chara also have a background description.

Dude, you need to check back what the word "MMORPG" means, lol.

Nope, otherwise Guild Wars would be classified as an MMORPG (Which it isn't)

I never play Guild Wars before so i don't really know what genre is it, but based on the RPG(single player) that i played since Atari century all also have story and quest to let the characters fulfill/complete . DotA technically is not a quest or follow stories since the objective only has 1 which is destroy enemy throne, nothing more nothing less, so i don't assume it as an RPG.


even the DotA itself tells everything, Defense of the Ancients , it's an defending game just like TD(Tower Defense) , but in different way to defend your base only...

This post has been edited by AiRBooM: Sep 3 2007, 03:19 PM

Hmm.. Guild wars isnt a MMORPG?

Hence the reason I call it an Action RPG (ala Diablo) where there is little or no story/questing and is very combat oriented.

PS. DotA isn't just about defending. You can't win by defending alone (Like in Tower Defence). Otherwise, technically you'd win the game just by sitting in your base and making sure nothing gets through. You win by killing your opponent's tree/throne. (Like most games)

Nope, its basically a purely online coop Diablo.

you miss my point there a RPG need to be in with story and also with character development means that how the character evolved, so if the game have heroes doesn't mean it's a RPG cause there is no story behind this character instead there are just some simple description of the hero origin when u select them.

If you play older version of V5 you can't choose the oponent hero, but in later version you can choose both side of heroes which mean this game is just based on strategies not storyline game, how can a sentinel hero destroy thier sentinel tree lol, it's just a game by player for the player, cheers

dota is a RPG game that requires a lot of strategies

Ok, I know I said come back when you can construct your arguments better, but I think I have to extend that to include sentences as well.

I think you're quoting the wrong person since I specifically said that an RPG does NOT need a story to be labelled one.

I'll just say this for the last time:

DotA is NOT a typical RPG.
It is an Action RPG... like Diablo and Guild Wars. Stop bringing in the lack of story and all that other crap into the argument.

IMO, action RPG makes more sense than RTS.

I dunno who bring this RPG sh*t in this DOTA game anyway, stupid fags !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do u guy even played RPG and known the origin of RPG, yes there are many RPG even DMC or God of War is also consider RPG, but the game is heavily based on an action so it's called an action game and the Warcraft III is based on RTS so it's basically it's a RTS.
Bah !!!!!!!! it's doesn't matter Dota it's RTS for me and don't quote me anymore fags

Yes warcraft III is based on rts but dota is not.

RTS = strategy

i think Dota had that more than any genre, end of story bye

DotA has more strategy than any genre?Thats bullshit.Since when you need strategy,DotA depends more on timing of an action than strategy.

I'll agree with you if you say DotA needs more team work than any other genre.

DMC and God of War are RPGs?

1997 called. They want their genre definitions back. Those were the times where pretty much EVERYTHING was considered an RPG simply because you took on a role. This was why the mass media labelled Quake and Command & Conquer as both RPGs.

DMC and GoW are 3rd person Action Platformers. They have some minor RPG elements, but the kicker is that the combat is more reliant on personal skill rather than stats. This is very unlike DotA (Which some often confuse). True enough that you need skill to be good in DotA, but if you're level 5 and the enemy's level 20, its very unlikely you'll beat them, unlike in DMC or GoW. So, your definition is sort of correct.

But... you bring this up:
Warcraft 3 is an RTS therefore DotA is one by default.

So, mods are automatically assumed to be in the same genre as their source game... Pretty narrow thinking now dontcha think?
Alien Swarm is a mod for UT2004 (An FPS) , but it bears more in resemblance to Geometry Wars than that.
Unwheel is a mod for UT2004 but it plays more like Need for Speed rather than a shooter.
Counter-strike is a mod for Half-Life (A pseudo futuristic shooter) but they are technically in different sub-genres. HL is more fast paced action oriented while CS is more tactical squad based.

If it doesn't matter, why are you here?

And this is the Internet baby... If you don't have the balls to defend what you're posting, just shut up and don't post squat.

You post something stupid here, you better damn well be sure I'm going to reply to it (Instead of leaving it there unattended and thus boost your ego thinking you've won or something).

Strategy... I'll bite:
Civilization 4 - Its all strategy but definitely not an RTS (Not real-time)

Dynasty Warriors 5 - The strategy is in making sure you manage the battle properly so your defense lines don't get broken.

Devil May Cry - The strategy is in deciding when strike a boss or dodge attacks. Yeap, last I checked, that counts as a "strategy"

Pro Evolution Soccer 6 - Picking the formations, players and tactics all counts as team strategy.

Now, can you buggers stop using literal definitions of an RTS to argue that DotA is one? There's more to an RTS than just the existence of "strategy" in the game, because plainly put, ALL games will require some "strategy" on your part so this point is moot.

At least TeokPeow argued that it had some aspects of an RTS in it... You're just basing it on the fact that the source game is an RTS and that it contains "strategy".

This post has been edited by H@H@: Sep 6 2007, 10:32 AM

issin't timing part of the strategy, so do teamwork lol, don't repeat yourself, cheers

relax i'm not trying to put crap in the arguement or have balls or not, is just that i'm lack of english vocabulary propabaly the knowledge of genre defination which had changed or evolved since there are so many type of game combining genre, that's why i cant give good debate.

I've been playing rpg since 1997 till now, then changing to Warcraft 3 and Dota, and i don't really see much similarity in both of the game, but i do agree that there are some element of rpg and action in it but not enough to changed it into these genre.

just some off-topic question

since when did u play rpg ?

since whne did u play Dota (hell, my fren play it since V4 ) ?

dota do have "micro-manage" but very limited. chen controlling creeps. visage controlling their birds. broodmother controlling its spideys. so dont talk crap.

DotA is a RPG built in a RTS engine. It is never a RTS for a few reasons...

1.RTS'es gives u command of and entire fleet of army at your disposal.
DotA lets u control only one character. The creeps are controled by
highly predictable AI. So it is not RTS.

2.RTS focuses on micro or macro-managing your forces on the battlefield.
DotA only has micromanaging when u summon treants. So for all
accounts, u can only manage your own units.

The best way (or some say worse way ) to imagine DotA , is to take Diablo and put it in a RTS setting...since if u say RTS plays from a top-down view...then Diablo does the same but Diablo is considered a RPG.

Warcraft 3 is a RTS but the only RPG part is when the Hero units come in. DotA is all about the heroes so the RTS portion is cancelled out.

This post has been edited by radkliler: Sep 6 2007, 04:09 PM

yes and how many maximum of those summoned units you can have ?

try a proper rts where u have to manage up to 60 units... there is nothing to micro with just 8-10 units ... try to micro 60 units

Repeat what? My point was strategy can be found in just about every game. Quote me the place where I said teamwork isn't part of strategy.

Ok, please tell the reasons why you think Warcraft 3 and Dota deserve to be in the same genre. We're not mind readers.

Nice... Trying to discredit my views by making me look like I have no experience?

I'll bite:
I can't remember exactly when I played my first RPG (like it matters). I will however, tell you what I've played:
Final Fantasy 6 -8
Fire Emblem
Fallout 1 & 2
Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2
Knights of the Old Republic 1 & 2
Might & Magic 6 (Hated it, but heh)
Elder Scrolls 3 & 4
Deus Ex
Planescape: Torment
Diablo
Revenant
Silver
Icewind Dale
Sudeki
Fable
Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines
Temple of Elemental Evil
Lionheart (Utter rubbish)
Silent Storm (sorta an RPG)
Warhammer 40K: Chaos Gate
Dungeon Siege 1 & 2
Guild Wars


That's all I can remember off the top of my head.

So, really it doesn't matter how long you've been playing a genre... Its the quantity. Reason? You could've been playing nothing but stupid RPGs since 1997 and that wouldn't make your knowledge of the genre any better. Same reason why the selection of games you've played in the genre should be broad enough so that you can tell what's good and what isn't.

As for DotA... I was playing it when it was originally called "DotA" only (For Reign of Chaos). The core concept and gameplay remains the same so it doesn't really matter when I started now does it? Again does it matter?


/character assassination failed

Happy?

my first rpg was pokemon blue lol

i'm talkin to other's not you

Warcraft and Dota is different, i already stated that

don't assumed things too much kid, i'm trying to put myself in your position

i can see that most of the RPG you play are english based not Jap except FF lol, now that i know why u think Dota have big element of RPG, cause i've play most of Jap rpg rather than english based except few such as Diablo and Baldur's Gate

as for the conclusion i respect your opinion as Dota was part of rpg, cause that was your opinion and i'm not going to argue about it.

but seriously arguing with u is like fighting over a candy whether it is sweet or not, which is lame

And...... finnally this bolded part has shown how immature and childish you are, i've been playing type of genre since you where sucking your moms n.... omg we were born in the same year cheers

PS: do you buy original game for all the games that u had mention lol ?, if you do wow ! u must be really rich

This post has been edited by nickisthemost: Sep 7 2007, 03:43 PM

I dont consider timing to use this spell as part of strategy.It's just timing.

That one i dont call micro-managing.It's just not much difference than controlling one hero or a few units.

I think I'm gonna piss off a lot of DOTA players here, but...

To me, DOTA is a Warcraft 3 MOD. That's its genre.

But if you really want to stretch it out, I'd say it should be classified under the RPG/RTS hybrid.

I also dont call it a mod,it's just a freaking map with some scripts and some dotards call it a full game made by Blizzard. LOL.

ROFL.

That is so true...it is just a mod and cannot be considered either RTS or RPG.

If u want to put it that way , might as well call Portal (if u do know about the game) an FPS even though u don't kill people.

I personally think that DotA is just a team-based game...no more , no less.

And this game also breed out the worst of swearers in a cybercafe. Find me a DotA match that does not involve words such as the C-word , the F-word , the B-word and the S-word and I'll find u 10 matches that involves all the words above.

I could have type the full words but something tells me that H@H@ WON"T be amused...

This post has been edited by radkliler: Sep 7 2007, 05:20 PM

Then why did you quote me? Apparently, I can't read. My Apologies.

Yes you said that, but you also say they share certain things which puts them in the same genre, which is what we're arguing about. Unless of course you're admitting now that they are indeed in different genres

And the character assassination continues...


Ok, let's put it this way, I gave you a rather complete list of the RPGs that I've played and thus have given you enough evidence to show that I am indeed more inclined towards Western RPGs than Jap RPGs. Your statement of "I've been playing RPGs since 1997" told me nothing about your RPG experience in the last decade except that you've played "some" RPGs in the last decade.

See where I'm getting at?

I just believe that a better gauge of one's experience in a genre should be based on the actual quantity of games played rather than when they actually started it.

Example:
1) Someone plays something old school (Say Final Fantasy 7), about a decade ago, they don't play anything else until now. Would you consider that person to be someone to be experienced in RPGs? He does fit your description...

2) Someone who has only started playing RPGs this year, but since then he's played through just about everything available in a period of 6 months. Final Fantasy, Diablo, Elder Scrolls... You name it he's played it. Would you consider this person to be inexperienced in RPGs just because they started this year?

More character assassination attempts. Really, I was NOT trying to attack YOU in any way with that statement. I was merely stating how flawed your approach of "How long have you been playing" questioning is.

Maybe your understanding of the language is lacking, but if you must know (Others may verify this), I was not attacking your character in any way. Just your methods.



Anyway, you still haven't answered the question I really want to know:
What makes Warcraft 3 and Dota belong in the same genre? You talk about respecting my opinion when it comes to DotA being an RPG just because its mine, but to get my respect, you need to back it up.


Since when could mods not be considered as members of a genre? Are they not programs (Albeit extensions) that allow ppl to play and have fun on them? Is CS not a tactical Squad based shooter? Is Red Orchestra not a WWI shooter? Team Fortress started out as a mod... Will the upcoming Team Fortress 2 be considered genre-less as well?

A game's genre can be summed up as a representation of the style and gameplay elements that shape the entire gaming experience... Not the base game or engine it was built up upon.

A lot of ppl here think I'm particularly anti-Dota and whatnot. But the truth is, I'm also afraid about the ppl who write off DotA completely just because its a MOD. To me, that's as retarded as the claim that DotA's an RTS.

PS. Portal is a First Person Puzzle Solver (I made it up, so sue me). Technically, its a mod since it is built upon Half-Life 2 and while sharing some cannon with Half-Life 2, plays nothing like it. The only difference is that this is done by the developers themselves.

This post has been edited by H@H@: Sep 7 2007, 07:58 PM

hahaha a pretty good read from top to bottom.

came over coz someone posted in fusion forum and it caught my attention.

The french word "genre" has cause many arguements not only in gaming but also in other fields, namely, Movies, Music, ETC.

the word genre has a academic definition "to group a variety of text that has similar contents"

it is silly to try and define a "text" (note that i'm using the word text as "any game/movie/music) into ONE genre, because there are many hybrid text nowadays that gives you dificulties to specifically define it into one of the genres of RTS, RPG or whatever.

Strictly speaking Dota is a WC3 map with scripted rules of play. it is similar to CS maps that only allow you to use Pistols, Scouts or grenades only. it utilises the game's original design but added in restrictions and rule twists to divert the attention of gameplay.

some people call Dota a "MOD" becoz it modifies the original purpose or play style of the game, which is not wrong, in a way. coz it actually modifies the game rules with restrictions. Many disagree becoz Dota did not actually modify the game engine itself to create any new contents.

Dota is a hybrid game that cannot be solely tagged by either the RTS or RPG genre. Its root game is from WC3, which is well known as a RTS game that added HEROES to add some elements of RPG. from that it doesnt blur the line between RPG and RTS, becoz WC3 is an RTS and no one will disagree with it.

all dota did was it strips down half of the RTS elements (base building etc). and strip down half of the original addition of the RPG element (takes away the importance of character narration) and simplified it into a round by round gameplay. it's a scripted map that takes away story and keeps the gameplay.

WC3 has heroes, and they actually have a story, but when you mod the game map in Dota, the stories do not really matter anymore. coz no matter how sad the hero or how happy the hero is, you only have 1 way to win, take down the enemy base. (heck even counter strike can win by wipe out all enemies =.=!)

to be honest i dun even think this topic is even worth arguing, coz it's only as meaningful as the first post, and it's only as brilliant as the original thread starter.

i posted as a respond to the effort H@H@ tried to make. this post is not a counter arguement to any earlier post.

Fair enough assessment, but I suppose your definition of a mod is vastly different than mine.

To me a mod is a modification of the original game in a way that separates it from the original in one form or another. This may include anything from aesthetic changes (New models, maps, etc.) to gameplay changes (Like how certain weapons work or how the game is played). I usually favour the deviation in gameplay over the original that dictates whether its a mod or not. For me, DotA fits this description well enough.

I cannot agree with you that a "story" must somehow be a crucial factor for an RPG. In most cases, yes... It is indeed a must-have for the genre, but remember this IS a multiplayer-only game and expecting a "story" in this is like expecting a 1 minute long video briefing before each match in CS. All of these things are considered moot when it comes to multiplayer. I can apply the same logic to Guild Wars PvP where every match has zero story (Not even build up in this sense) whatsoever but is still deemed as an RPG.

Then again, I suppose saying it isn't an RPG because of a lack of story is a whole lot better than saying it isn't an RPG BUT is an RTS because of a lack of story.

Anyway this topic is obviously the thread starter's attempt to piss off the local RTS community and hopefully rally some ppl to his cause. Wonder where he is now ?

LOL, omg H@H@, love your post about the different genres DOTA could've belonged to. Classic.

I vote to close this topic because it is pointless and argumentative. And as you've pointed out 'this topic is obviously the thread starter's attempt to piss off the local RTS community'.

Hmmm, now when I think about it, an interesting question has popped up:

If you guys don't consider an RPG an RPG if it doesn't have a story; what do you call games with all the elements of an RPG BUT lack a story? What genre would that be? (I will flame the first bugger who screams "RTS" so hard...)

even if there is no story ... the character still have a role of somesort ... there is nothing with no role ... thus , when the game is centered upon a character fulfilling his role , even when it lacks a story line , it is , as described , a role playing game. simply cause you play the role of a character.

a hack and slash,dota is a hack and slash, its no rpg nor an rts. u kill u get leveld up and buy good stuffs so u can hack some more,consider the players are like bosses. to prove this, scroll ur mouse down or use the pageup/down button and WALLAH! it becomes just exactly like dynasty warriors,theres ur health bar when pressing alt ,and theres mana for special moves and an item slot for weaponry,armory and stuff.

except it still requires teamwork unlike a simple hack and slash game

hack and slash requires teamworks in higher levels too, lets just say that dota is a hack and slash at a higher level,since once a barrack is down the creeps gets an upgrade, a hack and slash at a higher level needs teamwork too, you cant really survive alone unless you have the leet armoury and stuffs , unless all the bosses gangs up on you, then you'd sure to die.

Hmmm, you may be right... but this does seem like you're selling DotA short... Makes sense though.

I do agree in closing this thread.There isnt much point of talking about this.

The thread starter did have the intention to start a flame war here.Just like what he did in SC2 thread and some other threads.

Hack and Slash is a more suitable genre for DotA,IMO.

Anyway,it's hard to define a genre for a mod or game these days since developers/modders tend to combine certain aspects from other genre in their game.For example,WC3.It has RPG and RTS element in it.Also,not to forget about the upcoming Hellgate.It has traces of FPS,RPG and Hack and Slash in it.How you gonna define Hellgate's genre?RPG? H&S?

Same thing is for DotA.

Yeap,lots of teamwork.

Cheesenium, you are the most biased ppl i've ever seen. Go play Mario and never come back to this forum again.

78 hours spent on Dawn of War. you seriously need to get a life.