issin't timing part of the strategy, so do teamwork lol, don't repeat yourself, cheers

relax i'm not trying to put crap in the arguement or have balls or not, is just that i'm lack of english vocabulary propabaly the knowledge of genre defination which had changed or evolved since there are so many type of game combining genre, that's why i cant give good debate.

I've been playing rpg since 1997 till now, then changing to Warcraft 3 and Dota, and i don't really see much similarity in both of the game, but i do agree that there are some element of rpg and action in it but not enough to changed it into these genre.

just some off-topic question

since when did u play rpg ?

since whne did u play Dota (hell, my fren play it since V4 ) ?

dota do have "micro-manage" but very limited. chen controlling creeps. visage controlling their birds. broodmother controlling its spideys. so dont talk crap.

DotA is a RPG built in a RTS engine. It is never a RTS for a few reasons...

1.RTS'es gives u command of and entire fleet of army at your disposal.
DotA lets u control only one character. The creeps are controled by
highly predictable AI. So it is not RTS.

2.RTS focuses on micro or macro-managing your forces on the battlefield.
DotA only has micromanaging when u summon treants. So for all
accounts, u can only manage your own units.

The best way (or some say worse way ) to imagine DotA , is to take Diablo and put it in a RTS setting...since if u say RTS plays from a top-down view...then Diablo does the same but Diablo is considered a RPG.

Warcraft 3 is a RTS but the only RPG part is when the Hero units come in. DotA is all about the heroes so the RTS portion is cancelled out.

This post has been edited by radkliler: Sep 6 2007, 04:09 PM

yes and how many maximum of those summoned units you can have ?

try a proper rts where u have to manage up to 60 units... there is nothing to micro with just 8-10 units ... try to micro 60 units

Repeat what? My point was strategy can be found in just about every game. Quote me the place where I said teamwork isn't part of strategy.

Ok, please tell the reasons why you think Warcraft 3 and Dota deserve to be in the same genre. We're not mind readers.

Nice... Trying to discredit my views by making me look like I have no experience?

I'll bite:
I can't remember exactly when I played my first RPG (like it matters). I will however, tell you what I've played:
Final Fantasy 6 -8
Fire Emblem
Fallout 1 & 2
Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2
Knights of the Old Republic 1 & 2
Might & Magic 6 (Hated it, but heh)
Elder Scrolls 3 & 4
Deus Ex
Planescape: Torment
Diablo
Revenant
Silver
Icewind Dale
Sudeki
Fable
Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines
Temple of Elemental Evil
Lionheart (Utter rubbish)
Silent Storm (sorta an RPG)
Warhammer 40K: Chaos Gate
Dungeon Siege 1 & 2
Guild Wars


That's all I can remember off the top of my head.

So, really it doesn't matter how long you've been playing a genre... Its the quantity. Reason? You could've been playing nothing but stupid RPGs since 1997 and that wouldn't make your knowledge of the genre any better. Same reason why the selection of games you've played in the genre should be broad enough so that you can tell what's good and what isn't.

As for DotA... I was playing it when it was originally called "DotA" only (For Reign of Chaos). The core concept and gameplay remains the same so it doesn't really matter when I started now does it? Again does it matter?


/character assassination failed

Happy?

my first rpg was pokemon blue lol

i'm talkin to other's not you

Warcraft and Dota is different, i already stated that

don't assumed things too much kid, i'm trying to put myself in your position

i can see that most of the RPG you play are english based not Jap except FF lol, now that i know why u think Dota have big element of RPG, cause i've play most of Jap rpg rather than english based except few such as Diablo and Baldur's Gate

as for the conclusion i respect your opinion as Dota was part of rpg, cause that was your opinion and i'm not going to argue about it.

but seriously arguing with u is like fighting over a candy whether it is sweet or not, which is lame

And...... finnally this bolded part has shown how immature and childish you are, i've been playing type of genre since you where sucking your moms n.... omg we were born in the same year cheers

PS: do you buy original game for all the games that u had mention lol ?, if you do wow ! u must be really rich

This post has been edited by nickisthemost: Sep 7 2007, 03:43 PM

I dont consider timing to use this spell as part of strategy.It's just timing.

That one i dont call micro-managing.It's just not much difference than controlling one hero or a few units.

I think I'm gonna piss off a lot of DOTA players here, but...

To me, DOTA is a Warcraft 3 MOD. That's its genre.

But if you really want to stretch it out, I'd say it should be classified under the RPG/RTS hybrid.

I also dont call it a mod,it's just a freaking map with some scripts and some dotards call it a full game made by Blizzard. LOL.

ROFL.

That is so true...it is just a mod and cannot be considered either RTS or RPG.

If u want to put it that way , might as well call Portal (if u do know about the game) an FPS even though u don't kill people.

I personally think that DotA is just a team-based game...no more , no less.

And this game also breed out the worst of swearers in a cybercafe. Find me a DotA match that does not involve words such as the C-word , the F-word , the B-word and the S-word and I'll find u 10 matches that involves all the words above.

I could have type the full words but something tells me that H@H@ WON"T be amused...

This post has been edited by radkliler: Sep 7 2007, 05:20 PM

Then why did you quote me? Apparently, I can't read. My Apologies.

Yes you said that, but you also say they share certain things which puts them in the same genre, which is what we're arguing about. Unless of course you're admitting now that they are indeed in different genres

And the character assassination continues...


Ok, let's put it this way, I gave you a rather complete list of the RPGs that I've played and thus have given you enough evidence to show that I am indeed more inclined towards Western RPGs than Jap RPGs. Your statement of "I've been playing RPGs since 1997" told me nothing about your RPG experience in the last decade except that you've played "some" RPGs in the last decade.

See where I'm getting at?

I just believe that a better gauge of one's experience in a genre should be based on the actual quantity of games played rather than when they actually started it.

Example:
1) Someone plays something old school (Say Final Fantasy 7), about a decade ago, they don't play anything else until now. Would you consider that person to be someone to be experienced in RPGs? He does fit your description...

2) Someone who has only started playing RPGs this year, but since then he's played through just about everything available in a period of 6 months. Final Fantasy, Diablo, Elder Scrolls... You name it he's played it. Would you consider this person to be inexperienced in RPGs just because they started this year?

More character assassination attempts. Really, I was NOT trying to attack YOU in any way with that statement. I was merely stating how flawed your approach of "How long have you been playing" questioning is.

Maybe your understanding of the language is lacking, but if you must know (Others may verify this), I was not attacking your character in any way. Just your methods.



Anyway, you still haven't answered the question I really want to know:
What makes Warcraft 3 and Dota belong in the same genre? You talk about respecting my opinion when it comes to DotA being an RPG just because its mine, but to get my respect, you need to back it up.


Since when could mods not be considered as members of a genre? Are they not programs (Albeit extensions) that allow ppl to play and have fun on them? Is CS not a tactical Squad based shooter? Is Red Orchestra not a WWI shooter? Team Fortress started out as a mod... Will the upcoming Team Fortress 2 be considered genre-less as well?

A game's genre can be summed up as a representation of the style and gameplay elements that shape the entire gaming experience... Not the base game or engine it was built up upon.

A lot of ppl here think I'm particularly anti-Dota and whatnot. But the truth is, I'm also afraid about the ppl who write off DotA completely just because its a MOD. To me, that's as retarded as the claim that DotA's an RTS.

PS. Portal is a First Person Puzzle Solver (I made it up, so sue me). Technically, its a mod since it is built upon Half-Life 2 and while sharing some cannon with Half-Life 2, plays nothing like it. The only difference is that this is done by the developers themselves.

This post has been edited by H@H@: Sep 7 2007, 07:58 PM

hahaha a pretty good read from top to bottom.

came over coz someone posted in fusion forum and it caught my attention.

The french word "genre" has cause many arguements not only in gaming but also in other fields, namely, Movies, Music, ETC.

the word genre has a academic definition "to group a variety of text that has similar contents"

it is silly to try and define a "text" (note that i'm using the word text as "any game/movie/music) into ONE genre, because there are many hybrid text nowadays that gives you dificulties to specifically define it into one of the genres of RTS, RPG or whatever.

Strictly speaking Dota is a WC3 map with scripted rules of play. it is similar to CS maps that only allow you to use Pistols, Scouts or grenades only. it utilises the game's original design but added in restrictions and rule twists to divert the attention of gameplay.

some people call Dota a "MOD" becoz it modifies the original purpose or play style of the game, which is not wrong, in a way. coz it actually modifies the game rules with restrictions. Many disagree becoz Dota did not actually modify the game engine itself to create any new contents.

Dota is a hybrid game that cannot be solely tagged by either the RTS or RPG genre. Its root game is from WC3, which is well known as a RTS game that added HEROES to add some elements of RPG. from that it doesnt blur the line between RPG and RTS, becoz WC3 is an RTS and no one will disagree with it.

all dota did was it strips down half of the RTS elements (base building etc). and strip down half of the original addition of the RPG element (takes away the importance of character narration) and simplified it into a round by round gameplay. it's a scripted map that takes away story and keeps the gameplay.

WC3 has heroes, and they actually have a story, but when you mod the game map in Dota, the stories do not really matter anymore. coz no matter how sad the hero or how happy the hero is, you only have 1 way to win, take down the enemy base. (heck even counter strike can win by wipe out all enemies =.=!)

to be honest i dun even think this topic is even worth arguing, coz it's only as meaningful as the first post, and it's only as brilliant as the original thread starter.

i posted as a respond to the effort H@H@ tried to make. this post is not a counter arguement to any earlier post.

Fair enough assessment, but I suppose your definition of a mod is vastly different than mine.

To me a mod is a modification of the original game in a way that separates it from the original in one form or another. This may include anything from aesthetic changes (New models, maps, etc.) to gameplay changes (Like how certain weapons work or how the game is played). I usually favour the deviation in gameplay over the original that dictates whether its a mod or not. For me, DotA fits this description well enough.

I cannot agree with you that a "story" must somehow be a crucial factor for an RPG. In most cases, yes... It is indeed a must-have for the genre, but remember this IS a multiplayer-only game and expecting a "story" in this is like expecting a 1 minute long video briefing before each match in CS. All of these things are considered moot when it comes to multiplayer. I can apply the same logic to Guild Wars PvP where every match has zero story (Not even build up in this sense) whatsoever but is still deemed as an RPG.

Then again, I suppose saying it isn't an RPG because of a lack of story is a whole lot better than saying it isn't an RPG BUT is an RTS because of a lack of story.

Anyway this topic is obviously the thread starter's attempt to piss off the local RTS community and hopefully rally some ppl to his cause. Wonder where he is now ?

LOL, omg H@H@, love your post about the different genres DOTA could've belonged to. Classic.

I vote to close this topic because it is pointless and argumentative. And as you've pointed out 'this topic is obviously the thread starter's attempt to piss off the local RTS community'.

Hmmm, now when I think about it, an interesting question has popped up:

If you guys don't consider an RPG an RPG if it doesn't have a story; what do you call games with all the elements of an RPG BUT lack a story? What genre would that be? (I will flame the first bugger who screams "RTS" so hard...)

even if there is no story ... the character still have a role of somesort ... there is nothing with no role ... thus , when the game is centered upon a character fulfilling his role , even when it lacks a story line , it is , as described , a role playing game. simply cause you play the role of a character.

a hack and slash,dota is a hack and slash, its no rpg nor an rts. u kill u get leveld up and buy good stuffs so u can hack some more,consider the players are like bosses. to prove this, scroll ur mouse down or use the pageup/down button and WALLAH! it becomes just exactly like dynasty warriors,theres ur health bar when pressing alt ,and theres mana for special moves and an item slot for weaponry,armory and stuff.

except it still requires teamwork unlike a simple hack and slash game

hack and slash requires teamworks in higher levels too, lets just say that dota is a hack and slash at a higher level,since once a barrack is down the creeps gets an upgrade, a hack and slash at a higher level needs teamwork too, you cant really survive alone unless you have the leet armoury and stuffs , unless all the bosses gangs up on you, then you'd sure to die.