Yes it would be a good idea to have 1 of the gowinds build in france. But realistically we can build the gowinds totally in malaysia and complete it on time. It was not beyond our capabilities and expertise.

But lots of hands messed the program up.

Yes please swallow our pride and complete those gowinds. But we did not fail to complete them because we are not capable or we don't have the expertise, but we mismanaged and we did not presevere to push the program forward when our forex fell, which was not something we can control, or just stick to the original plan and not change anything after the the steel was cut, among others.

Decision is to proceed, but there is no decision to complete all 6 according to original specification. What TLDM need is 6 fully missiion capable gowinds.

BTW what 8 missile capable combatants that we have? Can you even compare a FFBNeverW OPVs with real frigates?

Royal Australian Navy plan is for
- 3x 7,000 tonnes Hobart Class AEGIS Air Warfare Destroyers
- 9x 8,000 tonnes Hunter Class ASW Frigates based on Type 26.

That is 12x extremely high end surface combattants.


As for TLDM, we need 12 frigates
- 8x Gowind ASW frigate
- 4x Type 31 GP frigate to replace lekiu and kasturi
plus
- 24x alexLMS that can do FAC, ASW wingman to the gowind and other multi purpose tasks.

lean and mean TLDM surface combattant force that can all be used in war scenarios.

1)missiles boat FAC when RAAF & RSN would not operate any missiles boat/FAC size craft whatsoever anymore?
-- Because it is not a single role FAC in the traditional sense. It will not be anything near as expensive and complicated as a full blown FAC or corvette. It would be a multi role ship, that can do FAC tasks (shoot missiles at ships), and can also run together with our frigates speed and range wise. Why i say no to ideas like the KCR60, or RLMS.

2) really more gowind? More projects for BNS? Currently MY no2 public enemies?
-- Yes it is a painful option that i wish that we don't have to pick, but the only way to recoup our losses is to actually order more. We have paid for the IP and such, ships number 7 & 8 should have lower prices. That should be our plan up till 2030. Then look at Type 31 to replace lekiu and kasturi come 2031.

3)how to justified MRSS, ASW heli which itself a ASW platforms as well as MPA & MALE which also a ASW tools.
-- MRSS, ASW heli are not surface combattants, which we are talking about.You didn't mention about Aussie LPD also right? Why i don't mention subs, replenishment tankers, etc. ASW heli is obviously needed for the gowinds. We also do need MRSS, but what kind of ship do we really need?

4) how to convince the public that inventing a custom solution of hunting submarine vs just buying off the shelf solution that's is ASW heli?
-- Never did i say ASW heli is not needed. Multistatic sonar operations is a known concept, and is the same concept if you use ASW Helicopter dipping sonar. Just this time the sonar can be in the water for days at end instead of just hours.

RLMS, Kedah batch 2 or corvettes is what not needed.

5)if RMN operate missiles boat FAC, what MMEA going to do? What to do with 14 FAC size gunboat that MMEA has planned for?
-- MMEA will operate large OPVs, ships like NGPC + the 4 chinese LMS, and plenty of FICs.

Official MMEA plans for:
- 20 large OPV
- 96 medium patrol boats (NGPC, PZ class, Bahtera etc) something 25m to 70m in length
- 228 boats smaller than 20m (FICs, RHIBs etc)

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 20 2021, 12:37 AM

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Making hard decisions is never easy. But decisions need to be made over 2 years ago, and it was not done!

If BNS used 1 billion to payoff debts, then push BNS to give deals that is advantageous to TLDM, say okay we cannot do anything for this 6 ships, but if you want the additional money to proceed, you must sign a contract for ship 7 & 8 that is nearly at cost, to repay the 1 billion you use to pay off debt. Its something that can be done right??

Deciding to cancel some ships then, would mean another type of ship could already be built by now, with equipments bought transferred to the new design ship.

Deciding to move forward then, would still need additional money to be put into the project, but substantially less than what was needed now, and we could have our gowinds operational by now.

Whatever it is, he did not decide on anything. He did not do his job as a Menhan. Because he did not decide on anything for the gowind project, is one of the major causes that zero gowinds has been completed to date.

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Can I know where did you get that number from?

All the numbers I have heard, and also in your previous posts, suggest a number of around RM2 billion.

how to consider FREMM when fulus enggak ada even to complete those gowinds?

FREMM costs about 1 billion dollars each.

Indonesia has signed the preamble contract for 6 FREMM, but lets see if the payments are done.

The gowind design cannot be increased in size bigger than the Maharajalela. Which is why Naval Group created the new Belharra as a bigger frigate than the gowind.

Why talk about increasing capabilities of the gowind? Right now the most important thing is to make sure all the gowinds have all the capabilities as per contract, no reduction in any weaponry or equipment.

The government would acquire the IP means the IP would be transferred from BNS to kerajaan. So next time government can theoretically ask, say MMHE to build more gowinds as the IP is owned by the government.

You tak tahu ke Alza tu is actually elongated Myvi? Perodua also buat no problem.

Yes

a bigger helicopter hangar and 5,000 nautical mile range (9,300 km; 5,800 mi) at 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph).

It is not a matter of we can fork out RM12 billion.

You cannot reset the time and make the gowinds disappear. If I can, I would prefer to buy korean frigates like the Thai DW3000 instead with ESSM and what not.

But it is no use of pak pandir " kalaulah dulu buat itu, kalaulah dulu buat ini, might as well buy this, might as well buy that " It is easier to lament about the past than to really plan something that is workable for the future.

We cannot run away from the fact the gowinds is there. We need to settle the gowinds whatever it takes.





BTW the sigma is a design with many commercial specs to reduce cost. Design-wise the gowinds is better.

Damen OPV range and the Damen SIGMA design is totally separate.

Damen OPV hull form is optimised for slow running. SIGMA hull is optimised for higher speeds.

BTW if TLDM buy the SIGMA 8313 corvette, what is the game plan for those ships? What mission is it optimised for?

RM4 billion is a lot of money.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 20 2021, 06:47 PM

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TLDM isn't going to operate on its own. TUDM will provide air cover. Any operations within the Malaysian EEZ can be covered by the long range and high endurance SU-30MKM.

VL MICA has short 20km range (which is still double the 10km range of VL Seawolf of the Lekius). VL MICA NG has similar range to CAMM-ER. We have only bought the MICA launchers. We can buy VL MICA NG like Egypt is buying for their own Gowind corvettes. With VL MICA NG, the gowinds will have a 40km air defence missile range.


https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-releases...-to-air-system/


https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/0...das-vl-mica-ng/

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 21 2021, 11:39 AM

What would happen to this contract signed in 2020?
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-det...variant-frigate

Also this contract in early 2021?
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-det...-frigate-design



Indonesia according to its plans, need a minimum of 16 Frigates. Which is understandable as it is a large maritime country as large as the whole of the mediterranean.

As of now what can we see


5x Van Speijik Frigates - to be retired
2x SIGMA PKR Frigates

6x FREMM ASW - preamble contract? plus 2x Maestrale as stopgap only for FREMM
2x Arrowhead 140 - preamble contract?

Still 6 more Frigates unaccounted for. Probably more Arrowhead 140 to be built after the first 2? Or the japanese Mogami frigate?

ESSM not gonna happen on the Gowinds, unless you want to scrap all the MICA launchers already bought and add more money to modify the system for MICA into ESSM. But if it is done, I am happy for it.

Latest UAE Gowind spec has ditched the Thales Tacticos CMS for the Setis CMS, and still with ESSM. So that is a proof ESSM can now work with setis, no problem.

I have also told you before what was the technical situation stumbling block with ESSM block 1 in 2011, but if wanna change now in 2021, yes it can be done, just add $$$$.

Also the current situation, VL MICA NG range is pretty close to the ESSM block 2.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 21 2021, 05:09 PM

The Gowind main mission profile is to track submarines, which is why it got the CAPTAS2.

If we want a capable air defence frigate, lets replace the Lekiu and Kasturi with Type 31. More space for missiles and bigger radar. But before we move to that, we need to complete those Gowinds ASAP.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 21 2021, 05:47 PM

Why would the LMV be suitable for TLDM?

Which brings me back to the question, what kind of mission profile are you expecting from the 2LMS? A ship must be bought for a clear mission profile, not the other way round.

My opinion, BNS should concentrate on completing the Gowinds first, before being given any contract for any new ships.

But if you want to "share" the budget with the 6 existing LCS, then just build another 2 LCS, not trying to create new ships, 2LMS, Kedah or whatnot that "share" missiles and equipment with the LCS.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 21 2021, 05:48 PM

Why you keep on putting out these incorrect prices?

I dont know what kind of maths education the flightglobal journalists have, but a single MICA does not cost 300% more than ESSM, which has a US NAVY (not export) price of 1.795 million dollars.

From this link, MICA for India is about 1.9 million euros each

https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/ne...o-air-missiles/

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The Type 31 will have a different mission profile than the Gowind.

Can you say the Royal Navy Type 45 is more capable than the Type 26? No right?

Type 31 would be our General Purpose (GP) Frigate, probably with the emphasis on air defence capability. Also as a replacement of the capabilities of our current Lekiu and Kasturi, as the navy's main flagships. That means the ability to command a group of warships, with dedicated mission room for a flagship commander.

The Gowinds, on the other hand, has more emphasis towards ASW mission, with the CAPTAS2 towed array sonar.

We should not even talk about 700 tons gun boat for TLDM.

My opinion

Rancangan Malaysia-12 2021-2025 we try to complete 4 Gowinds say for RM4 billion.

Rancangan Malaysia-13 2026-2030 complete the remaining 2 Gowinds, plus additional 2 Gowinds for say RM5 billion.

Its should be better than getting just 4 gowinds and adding 700 tons gun boat or OPV.

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My point is, just buy more LCS if you want to bailout the LCS project. Why give another different new project with more design stages to BNS?

A small LMS if want to fire ESSM, must have long range 3D Radars, CMS as advanced as the LCS. There is no way ever a Rm500 million ship can be made capable of firing the long range ESSM. Please tell me what is the cheapest new corvette that can fire ESSM? Anything priced less than RM500 million or 125 million dollars?

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 21 2021, 07:40 PM

Passex of BAKAMLA OPV80 with USCG Legend class cutter.






USCG Legend class cutter - 127m, 4500 tonnes

BAKAMLA OPV80 - 80m, 1650 tonnes

MMEA OPV1800 and Kedah Class OPV is almost similar in size to the BAKAMLA OPV80.





If you know how little money it takes the indonesians to build those OPV80, you will not believe that it is even real.

But unfortunately because of turf wars, TNI-AL is doing its best so that BAKAMLA will not get the budget to build more OPVs.