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We don't innovate by creating something new, but we innovate by getting and combining existing things that other people have not thought of doing. The ship, the weapons, the towed ASW sonar, is all off the shelf. No need at all to reinvent the wheel.


The main force structure is of a TLDM that can strike back at chinese ships and submarines if they start shooting at us. A force that could easily be paid for with the money we don't spend on lousy RLMS or Kedah Batch 2 OPVs. Also a force structure that can have good situational awareness of all PLAN assets in our EEZ, either in the air, on the surface or underwater.

For full tracking of underwater forces in our south china sea EEZ off borneo, TLDM should have a minimum of 2 Gowind task force at sea all the time. That is 2 gowinds + 4 alexLMS with ASW module at sea everytime. Geospatial satellite image of PLAN base in Hainan will be monitored 24/7 to check which sub is at base, and which sub is on mission. The sea would be patrolled by TUDM MPA, when any submarine signature is found with MAD, a gowind task force will be sent to that location to tail the submarine. So there should not be any surprises from any submarines in our waters.

If the shooting starts, i expect our surface ships in south china will be strike hard and sunk no matter how good their weapons are. The PLAN has ballistic anti-ship missiles and Hypersonic anti-ship missiles that we have no countermeasure for. The alexLMS will play far from the south china sea in this scenario, doing area denial of chinese shipping in melacca straits, pulau banggi and tawau waters. Any counterstrikes against PLAN navy ships in our EEZ would be with our subs and TUDM MRCAs. Large long range UUVs would be used to mine Chinese harbours and also launch counterattack missile strike against PLAN bases. We should not expect to win, but to buy time to bring support from our allies.

If there is no shooting war, then our MMEA should be the main force pushing back Chinese Coast guard from harassing our economic activities in South china sea, of course with the support of all of the TLDM surface fleet.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 17 2021, 05:57 PM

You add MICA to tun fatimah no need to add CMS, 3D radar ah?

What software you want to write when the ASW and MCM module is not need to be integrated to the ship and is all standalone?

We are not the Philippines. We have MKM and Hornet that the philippines don't, but now we need LCA like FA50 to replace our worn out hawks.


Those ships don't have 28+ knots speed. Don't have range to travel at least 2500 nm at full speed. Don't have large deck to place systems such as MCM.

Which is why i say - no integration with the ship at all for ASW and MCM modules. All standalone. US Navy is having headaches to intergrade various things WITH THE SHIP.

KISS

The ASW module is standalone, and will datalink all the information from the sonar back to the Gowind mothership. The information will be procesed on board the Gowind similarly to a data from say a sonobuoy sonar or a dipping sonar from a helicopter.

Similarly to the MCM module, it is all standalone. The ship is just a place to bring it around. The module can be put on land or even on OSV if needed.

Anyway superpowers design their ships to play in other peoples backyard thousands of miles away from home. We are playing in our own backyard.



I could elaborate on exactly how I would do it, but not on an open forum.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 17 2021, 08:08 PM

First you have to really understand the concept.


Meteor is an advanced missile that is designed to shoot down high speed and high maneuverability targets at long range. It is designed to exchange tracking data with the fighter jet in real time. Of course it needs to be integrated. As is advanced missiles like NSM that you can change the target mid flight.

missiles with fire and forget system, that just need to enter a coordinate and fly to the area before switching on its own radar to kill the ship does not need advanced integration. Which is why the houthis and hezbollah can fire anti ship missiles at israeli and uae ships just by putting the missile on the ground by the beachside.

Also i did say the anti ship missiles would be integrated with the ship, but not the ASW module and MCM module, which are standalone.

this is the description of the kraitarray
https://www.sea.co.uk/maritime/products/kraitarray/
it can be all stand-alone similar to fitment on USV, and all the sonar data is datalinked to the main gowind frigate, with the frigate processing and treating the additional sonar data from the alexLMS like data from helicopter dipping sonar or even aircraft sonobuoys, which is already regularly done. You combine multiple sources of sonar in a concept called multistatic sonar operations. If you understand the concept. The ASW module can be standalone on the alexLMS because it must be operated paired with the gowinds for ASW. All the complicated systems, operators, processors are onboard the Gowind. USN LCS ASW module is complicated as the ship must be able to execute ASW operations on its own with a module that is designed to be removable but totally linked to the LMS combat management system.

MCM module is also standalone, with the control modules put on an OSV, with the alexLMS carrying around and launching the USV and UUV minehunters.
https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/lima-2...n-at-lima-2019/

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multistatic sonar system

https://www.cmre.nato.int/news-room/former-...c-sonar-systems

my 1x Gowind and 2x alexLMS combination

active sonar (a hull-mounted or towed source in a frigate) - this will be the active CAPTAS2 sonar towed by the Gowind

passive array towed by another ship - this would be the two alexLMS towing the low cost passive kraitarray sonar or any similar low cost towed antisubmarine passive array sonar.

this would be supported by ASW helicopter on the Gowind, and MPA aircrafts.

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I perfectly understand that. read carefully what i write. Did not see my comment on quad packing?

I also would prefer our gowinds to have ESSM.

But the reality for our gowinds right now, if we still add another major change now, more money needs to be put into the project, and it will be delayed further, something we cannot afford.

also you must understand missiles evolve and improve.

the ESSM when we signed up for the gowinds, was a complicated missile that requires dedicated radar target illuminators to be added front and rear of the frigate, similar to how we need to operate the seawolfs on Lekiu. VL MICA can just use radar data from main ship radar only like from the SMART-S. less complications. But VL MICA is short range and ESSM is medium range. Only around 2020 ESSM Block 2 was modified to have the same system as MICA, no need for radar target illuminator. Then recently late 2020 VL MICA NG comes out with more than 40km range with the same size. it has dual pulse rocket motor, something simple in theory to extend the range by extending the burn time by putting pauses in the burn. in effect putting in a few seconds of glide in between rocket burn thus extending the range. Still the quad packing of ESSM is a very big advantage when compared to MICA.


https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/0...n-essm-block-2/


https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/0...das-vl-mica-ng/

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given a good design, Indonesia can build any ships.

but locally designed ships? the KCR60 is not something i consider as a good ship. The concept of that tank boat is idiosyncratic at best.

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to be honest we got much more good engineers than Indonesia. just the politicking and all these get rich quick scheme of selling mediocre stuff at premium prices wasted their skills and knowledge.

it was a good project.

rather than just getting corvettes as originally planned under SGPV, we should be getting 6 frigates.

but then...

according to the original Gowind contract signed in 2011, the first gowind was planned to be delivered in 2017, the last one in 2020. but you all know what happened.

as per original plan we should have right now all 6 fully operational gowinds.

So as i said, originally the gowinds is a good plan. Fudge up by everyone involved, TLDM, BNS, government caused what it is right now, zero ships completed 2021.




why not stay at 2500 tons? TLDM wants the range to be at least similar or near to the Kedah class. Kedah class range is 6,050 nautical miles (11,200 km; 6,960 mi) at cruising speed. Gowind 3100 range is 5,000 nautical miles (9,300 km; 5,800 mi) at 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph). Gowind 2500 range is 3,700 nautical miles (6,900 km; 4,300 mi) at 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph).

Egyptian Gowind 2500 price is 375 million euros each

Malaysian Gowind 3100 original ceiling price was 400 million dollars or RM1.5 Billion in 2011. So very small difference in price of gowind 2500 and 3100. But now 2021 400 million dollars is how much billion ringgit?

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 18 2021, 05:52 PM

Belharra is too expensive for what it is. This is what greece supposed to pay for belharra's. Which is why greece has second thoughts and now is looking at other types of frigates.
https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordp...ch-warship-buy/

The Type 31e is better for us in my opinion.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 18 2021, 05:31 PM

so basically

24x VL MICA
32x ASTER 30
16x EXOCET MM40

basically a lean towards being an AAW frigate. probably would not have towed sonar installed.

none right now.

so they are thinking of the Brahmos on the arrowhead 140?

CAMM-ER?

what will the FREMM be armed with? CAMM-ER also?

VL MICA already with sigma frigate and F2000 corvette.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 18 2021, 05:49 PM

VL MICA NG is medium range. exactly same size as original VL MICA.

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CAMM the original 25km version can be quadpacked.

CAMM-ER is larger than the original CAMM, so no idea if can quadpack or not.



This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 18 2021, 06:10 PM

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I wouldn't choose any of them.

the latest KCR batch 3 number 5 and 6 which is fully armed cost Rupiah 800 miliar or around 56 million dollars each.

https://money.kompas.com/read/2019/08/02/16...-rp-1-6-triliun

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 18 2021, 08:31 PM

personally I don't know

yes it is a good idea. but its all acedemic now. we cannot turn back time.


personally I don't know

if you like a traditional FAC.

Yes the KCR-60 is good for that mission.

It got a 28 knot top speed.

it got 2400 nautical mile range at 20 knots.

It got bofors 57mm gun.

it got anti ship missiles (rumored from MBDA for KCR-60 batch 3). Azriel might fill in for me on this.

The fassmer costs about 65 million ringgit, around 15 million dollars. Including the on board UAV.


Yes.

You could also say that we spend the same money for a big 1860 tonne OPV but end up with just a gunboat.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 18 2021, 10:59 PM

No ASW. that is additional and not included.

The they say its AAW capable just because the 57mm gun can shoot down missiles and aircraft in close in defence function.