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 Military Thread V28

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darth5zaft
post Oct 5 2021, 09:55 PM

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QUOTE(jwst1313 @ Oct 5 2021, 08:59 PM)
US$720 million  or RM$3.03 billion for 2 multi purpose frigate (AAW and ASW capability) at between 5700 tons to 6,000 tons each. Let say add another RM$1 billion for cost over run , the total is only RM$4.03 billion for for two units of 5700 tons to 6000 tons boats capable of AAW and ASW. Means one boat highest price RM$2.015 billion.

Lets see Gowind 3100 ton a boat after completion cost how much a boat. It was priced at RM$9.12 billion for 6 boat or RM$1.52 billion a boat.

We would see at the end after paying RM$9.12 billion how many Gowind 3100 TLDM will get😁😁 and we know the price per boat.

Do your maths later😁
*
Nah. Won't be cheap anymore if we get it🤣

ID had a long history of getting equipment as it is off the shelf.
MY had a long proud history of gold plating everything.

What you think the likelihood of
1)MY get the type 31 as it is like ID & pay RM1.5 bil a ship
2) MY get type 31 then try to make it a MRCV mothership with UUV, UAV & USV on top of adding Absalon ASW equipment?


darth5zaft
post Oct 5 2021, 10:36 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Oct 5 2021, 09:53 PM)
If they want to be self sufficient, they need to make the N219 like we build buses. Creating something like prasarana in malaysia to buy hundreds of N219 to be used all over Indonesia. Giving subsidised flying service to rural indonesians. If not it will not be a self sufficiency drive.

On the other hand, Indonesia also wants to embed themselves into the global supply chain.

But currently what they do is mostly low tech metal fuselage and wing components. also those components are for low volume products like EC225/EC225M that sells like 2 dozen per year.

malaysia supplies components for almost all airbus and boeing aircraft that is being built annually.

Indonesia are now trying to get ToT for aerospace composite manufacturing, something malaysia has done for around 30 years now, and among the largest aerospace composite manufacturer in the world.

https://www.indonesian-aerospace.com/news/d...omponen+pesawat
*
You mean like we did proton? Hahahaha.

To be fair, if Mahathir was nicer to the west and get us a preferential access to rich western market then maybe proton could be at least quarter as successful as Kia. Unfortunately he just go full on erdagon instead.

No lah, not for whole economy just in term of defense, we accept manufacturing contract as tradeoff for weapon purchase while ID is more interested in buying weapon making knowhow with their purchased.

If not mistaken, France offer local assembly of rafales to us before. Which probably explains why ID are interested in KFX & Rafale despite it being twice the price of an American jet.

Overtime they would acquired IP for last gen weapon like Korea acquisition of KFX(which basically a nice looking super hornet), M11a1, 30mm dual aircraft gun, reverse engineered the s400 and so on.
alexz23
post Oct 6 2021, 12:37 AM

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"TDM isytihar pengoperasian semula Batalion Ke-26 RAMD | Harian Metro"

https://www.hmetro.com.my/amp/mutakhir/2021...lion-ke-26-ramd

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azriel
post Oct 6 2021, 07:17 AM

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Indonesian Army Aviation AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter. Credit to Zuna Photography.

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Lampuajaib
post Oct 6 2021, 07:36 AM

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QUOTE(jwst1313 @ Oct 5 2021, 08:59 PM)
US$720 million  or RM$3.03 billion for 2 multi purpose frigate (AAW and ASW capability) at between 5700 tons to 6,000 tons each. Let say add another RM$1 billion for cost over run , the total is only RM$4.03 billion for for two units of 5700 tons to 6000 tons boats capable of AAW and ASW. Means one boat highest price RM$2.015 billion.

Lets see Gowind 3100 ton a boat after completion cost how much a boat. It was priced at RM$9.12 billion for 6 boat or RM$1.52 billion a boat.

We would see at the end after paying RM$9.12 billion how many Gowind 3100 TLDM will get😁😁 and we know the price per boat.

Do your maths later😁
*
Correction
ID pay $720 mio (RM 3 B) for 2 units
MY already pay RM 6B and need additional RM 3 B to complete 2 units.

2 AH140 only RM 3B vs 2 Gowind RM 9 B
(ID win first round)

MY and ID try to build the ships locally. This is interesting will PT PAL can delivered the ship on time? meanwhile BNS already delay for years.

This post has been edited by Lampuajaib: Oct 6 2021, 07:37 AM
Lampuajaib
post Oct 6 2021, 07:48 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Oct 5 2021, 08:59 PM)
UMW aerospace never did composites. It was established specifically to supply metallic jet engine components to RR.

Even though we don't export whole completed aircraft like Indonesia, our aerospace export value is like 10x of indonesia.

indonesian aerospace export value is only around 100 million dollars annually.

malaysian aerospace export value is more than 1 billion dollars annually.
*
ID builds aero manufacturing factory (flyable plane and some parts for local and export) while MY builds spare parts factory only.
ID local demad is big enough while MY is export oriented because can not build plane. That is why MY export look bigger than ID.

Comparing ID and MY Aero industry is not apple to apple. MY is too far behind.

This post has been edited by Lampuajaib: Oct 6 2021, 08:06 AM
Lampuajaib
post Oct 6 2021, 08:04 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Oct 5 2021, 09:53 PM)
If they want to be self sufficient, they need to make the N219 like we build buses. Creating something like prasarana in malaysia to buy hundreds of N219 to be used all over Indonesia. Giving subsidised flying service to rural indonesians. If not it will not be a self sufficiency drive.

On the other hand, Indonesia also wants to embed themselves into the global supply chain.

But currently what they do is mostly low tech metal fuselage and wing components. also those components are for low volume products like EC225/EC225M that sells like 2 dozen per year.

malaysia supplies components for almost all airbus and boeing aircraft that is being built annually.
ID orientation is making plane not parts, they have started since 1970 that is why PT DI deal mostly in metal. Meanwhile MY orientation is making parts and deal with composite material which is start in 90s.

ID is now start to make composite and need repeat order from big plane manufacturer such as Airbus and Boeing. I think this is just how they make additional money.

If you say ID is 30 late on composite material parts then MY is late almost 50 years and still counting to ID on aero manaufacturing.
I am not suggesting MY to build aero manufacturing factory because it will a failed one on some reasons, even the famous Fokker had already gone.

This post has been edited by Lampuajaib: Oct 6 2021, 08:33 AM
azriel
post Oct 6 2021, 08:18 AM

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Nice pics of PT Dirgantara Indonesia N219 Nurtanio light aircraft first prototype. Credit to Diki Erfan Priliandi.

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https://www.instagram.com/p/CSYpjwEntnv/
Lampuajaib
post Oct 6 2021, 08:28 AM

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QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Oct 5 2021, 09:23 PM)
Different country different needs.

They are going for self sufficiency similar to Korea & turkey while we are going to embedded ourselves deeper in the global supplies chain.
*
Exactly....
Bring a self sufficient means you need us than I need you. It help in any bargain both economy and diplomatic relationship.
Lampuajaib
post Oct 6 2021, 08:51 AM

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QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Oct 5 2021, 10:36 PM)

If not mistaken, France offer local assembly of rafales to us before. Which probably explains why ID are interested in KFX & Rafale despite it being twice the price of an American jet.

Overtime they would acquired IP for last gen weapon like Korea acquisition of KFX(which basically a nice looking super hornet), M11a1, 30mm dual aircraft gun, reverse engineered the s400 and so on.
*
As we all know ID orientation is know how and self sufficient. Boramae and KFX is 2 side of a coin. Buying rafale will open ID access to new tech in fighter jet weapon system, because US will not give any ToT. Although recently US give ID a capability MLU to upgrade their old F16 A/B locally but that will not help ID much.
alexz23
post Oct 6 2021, 09:19 AM

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As an industry, overall indonesian aerospace is small when compared to malaysia, even if it can build whole aircraft like CN-235, of which only the metal airframe is locally built, all the engines, avionics, radars, communications, hydraulic systems, even most of the raw materials is fully imported. Annually it manufactures less than 4 CN-235. Since 2012 PTDI has build just around 60 aircrafts, that number includes final assembly of helicopters from 100% overseas components for indonesian military.



https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/...s-di-rai-872466

QUOTE

In 2017, Indonesia’s aerospace exports only reached US$103.9 million, while Singapore and Malaysia’s exports reached US$7.4 billion and US$2.1 billion, respectively.
.





Malaysia for RMK12, has underlined the aerospace industry as one of the main priorities.

user posted image

https://www.nst.com.my/business/2021/09/731...ace-sector-12mp

QUOTE

Aerospace is a globalised industry with exacting and uncompromising standards. It is a gateway industry to other higher value sectors such as high-end medical devices and robotics.

Malaysia has long established an aerospace industry ecosystem. Through the 12th Malaysia Plan (12MP) from 2021-2025, we are bolstering our position among the key players in Asia Pacific.

The country's aerospace industry supply chain consists of design and engineering services, aerospace manufacturing, maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) services as well as training for students and professionals.

Aerospace manufacturing and MRO services are the most dominant in Malaysia, contributing to more than 90 per cent of the industry revenue.

There are now more than 240 aerospace-related companies operating here, comprising both local and global players. The industry has generated more than 25,000 skilled jobs, of which 95 per cent are locals. The aerospace industry is among the leading industries in Malaysia embracing 4IR (fourth industrial revolution) technology.

Major global players have established their regional centre in Malaysia to serve the growing Asia Pacific market. This includes Airbus' regional engineering support centre for all of Asia except China, and GE Aviation.

The latter, through GE Engine Services Malaysia, is the only GE Aviation full overhaul centre in Asia Pacific.

Similarly, our local aerospace industry is designing and producing parts and components that move on the back of the wing, in the cockpits and fuselages of global carriers' aircraft. Malaysia in fact is among the world's largest aircraft components manufacturers.

Propelling Malaysia's aerospace industry

Developed countries such as the United States of America, South Korea, China, Japan and Singapore have strong aerospace industries at the core of their innovation economies.

South Korea, for example, is a significant producer of aerospace technology, producing their own T-50 fighter jets. The country is also globally dominant in the E&E (electrical and electronics) and M&E (machinery and equipment) sectors with conglomerates like Hyundai and LG both having aerospace divisions among their technology development drivers.

Propelling Malaysia's aerospace industry in the 12MP brings a new set of challenges and opportunities given the disruption and uncertainties brought about by the pandemic.

The International Air Transport Association expects global travel to return to pre-pandemic levels between 2023 and 2024, with regional travel being the main driving force. Global OEMs expect the commercial aircraft market to gradually recover between 2023 and 2025.

After this point, the OEMs anticipate an increase in orders on top of the delivery of backlog orders. It is forecasted that the demand for new commercial aircraft will be geared towards fuel-efficient aircraft and will be dominated by single-aisle jets for short-haul routes as well as for air cargo, defense and space sectors.

The pandemic has adversely affected the global aerospace sector. However, we should prepare ourselves for the future. The 12MP is an opportune time for us to do just that.

Interestingly enough, the Malaysian supply chain has seen more requests for quotations (RFQs) during the pandemic, reflecting adjustments in the global supply chain favouring the country. Thus, it is crucial to ensure that the local aerospace industry is supported throughout this pandemic to sustain its skills and competencies, as well as grow its technology and innovation capabilities.

The triple helix partnership between industry, government and academia will be strengthened under the 12MP to accelerate the digitalisation and automation of the supply chain as part of its Industry 4.0 transformation.

A more coordinated strategy among industry stakeholders is crucial in ensuring the goals of the Malaysia Aerospace Industry Blueprint 2030 are achieved. Enhancement of the industry's institutional capacity is then anticipated to propel growth.

Training and other industry catalysts

Covid-19 and emerging climate change requirements are forcing companies like Airbus and Boeing to develop more environmentally-friendly aircrafts and engines.

The development of Airbus' zero-emission hybrid-hydrogen commercial aircraft known as ZEROe and Boeing's ecoDemonstrator 787 harnesses the power of big data for real time efficient flying. Thus, Malaysia's capabilities in this sustainable aviation area needs to be mobilised considering biofuels and hydrogen are already beginnig to gain a  more important role.

Additionally, Malaysia has several public universities with strong aerospace engineering capabilities, particularly in testing new aerodynamic designs as well as in mechanical and electrical engineering.

Our TVET colleges today are already producing some of the region's most high skilled aerospace technicians. Nonetheless, education and industrial training through the triple helix approach should be given more focus in building up the necessary skills for future industrial needs.

Over the years, Malaysia has strengthened its position as a key player in the regional aerospace industry. From the setting up of Malaysia Airlines' engineering and maintenance facilities in 1972 to the establishment of UMW Holdings Bhd's aerospace manufacturing engine components for Rolls Royce in 2015 and the recent domination of Aerodyne Sdn Bhd in global drone services, we are becoming major players.

Aerodyne, a homegrown company, is already the second largest drone technology company in the world, providing services to the telecommunications, energy, infrastructure, agriculture and transportation industries in more than 20 countries.

Aerodyne is an example of how new emerging and disruptive aerospace sub-sectors like drone services and satellite internet are creating new opportunities for revenue and employment.

The aerospace industry will play a catalytic role in the nation's economic recovery by spearheading Industry 4.0 transformation and creating new economic opportunities.

Going forward, aerospace is just one of many industries that the country will have to focus on, in order to become a high-income nation. The 12th Malaysia Plan will facilitate this industry, among many others, to harness its strengths and reduce its inefficiencies.

*The writer is the Minister in the Prime Minister's Department in charge of economy

.




https://www.astroawani.com/berita-malaysia/...nue-2025-322062

QUOTE

The aerospace industry has been identified as one of the strategic industries under the 12th Malaysia Plan (12MP) to propel the country into the high technology trajectory, generating RM30 billion revenue by 2025 from RM11.6 billion in 2020.
According to the 12MP document released by the Economic Planning Unit (EPU) today, the industry, which is projected to create 30,000 jobs over the next five years, would be transformed to produce more complex products and services.
atreyuangel
post Oct 6 2021, 09:35 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Oct 6 2021, 12:37 AM)
"TDM isytihar pengoperasian semula Batalion Ke-26 RAMD | Harian Metro"

https://www.hmetro.com.my/amp/mutakhir/2021...lion-ke-26-ramd

user posted image
*
dulu waktu bubar 26,27,28

alexz23
post Oct 6 2021, 09:46 AM

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QUOTE(atreyuangel @ Oct 6 2021, 09:35 AM)
dulu waktu bubar 26,27,28
*
.



Setuju dengan pengoperasian semula 26 RAMD.

Rancangan nak buat battalion baru PGA rasa tak payah lah. Boleh je pindahkan battalion PGA sedia ada dari semenanjung ke sabah.
atreyuangel
post Oct 6 2021, 09:58 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Oct 6 2021, 09:46 AM)
.
Setuju dengan pengoperasian semula 26 RAMD.

Rancangan nak buat battalion baru PGA rasa tak payah lah. Boleh je pindahkan battalion PGA sedia ada dari semenanjung ke sabah.
*
Brigade tenggara la kot!
Lampuajaib
post Oct 6 2021, 10:08 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Oct 6 2021, 09:19 AM)
As an industry, overall indonesian aerospace is small when compared to malaysia, even if it can build whole aircraft like CN-235, of which only the metal airframe is locally built, all the engines, avionics, radars, communications, hydraulic systems, even most of the raw materials is fully imported. Annually it manufactures less than 4 CN-235. Since 2012 PTDI has build just around 60 aircrafts, that number includes final assembly of helicopters from 100% overseas components for indonesian military.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/...s-di-rai-872466
.
Malaysia for RMK12, has underlined the aerospace industry as one of the main priorities.

user posted image

https://www.nst.com.my/business/2021/09/731...ace-sector-12mp
.
https://www.astroawani.com/berita-malaysia/...nue-2025-322062
*
And you still failed to understand when comparing ID and MY Aero indusrtry.
Even Honda uses subcon to build parts. Subcon can work if there is order from the parent company, all spesification and dimension parts are given. Even the parent company can set how much gain you can have if not they can find other to build for them.
Even Boeing and Airbus have subcon. Not all part are made by Boeing/airbus

Why you try so hard to compare? You must compare apple to apple then we can talk.
You can compare Boeing and Airbus or Embraer, Fokker, CASA and PT DI.

Sad thing is most major MY defence industries are failing.
Defrech, SMEO, BNS, are failling

This post has been edited by Lampuajaib: Oct 6 2021, 10:20 AM
alexz23
post Oct 6 2021, 10:18 AM

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QUOTE(Lampuajaib @ Oct 6 2021, 10:08 AM)
And you still failed to understand when comparing ID and MY Aero indusrtry.
Even Honda uses subcon to build parts. Subcon can work if there is order from the parent company, all spesification and dimension parts are given. Even the parent company can set how much gain you can have if not they can find other to build for them.
*
Even if you 100% design your own aeroplane, more than 50% of its components need to be imported. Even the aerospace spec aluminum need to be imported.

Selling less than a dozen aeroplane of your own design annually isn't going to create an aerospace industry.

Korea is having local aerospace industry for local consumption, and it has to take hard decisions. For example retiring perfectly airworthy 100+ blackhawks so that 100+ new Surion helicopters could be bought locally. Korea also exports a lot of aerospace materials. For example all F-15 fuselage now is made by KAI and shipped to USA for final assembly.

As it is right now, in SEA, singapore has the largest aerospace industry by far. Malaysia in 2nd place. By 2030 Malaysia aims to be the largest aerospace industry player in SEA. Indonesia cannot be a large aerospace player just by building its own aircraft.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Oct 6 2021, 10:20 AM
alexz23
post Oct 6 2021, 10:22 AM

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QUOTE(atreyuangel @ Oct 6 2021, 09:58 AM)
Brigade tenggara la kot!
*
Briged tengah ada 4 battalion, 4,5,6,19 PGA.

Boleh je pindahkan 5 PGA simpang renggam ke Sabah. Simpang Renggam parlimen Mazlee Malik, tak apa kalau pindahkan PGA ke tempat lain biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


Lampuajaib
post Oct 6 2021, 10:26 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Oct 6 2021, 10:18 AM)
Even if you 100% design your own aeroplane, more than 50% of its components need to be imported. Even the aerospace spec aluminum need to be imported.

Selling less than a dozen aeroplane of your own design annually isn't going to create an aerospace industry.

Korea is having local aerospace industry for local consumption, and it has to take hard decisions. For example retiring perfectly airworthy 100+ blackhawks so that 100+ new Surion helicopters could be bought locally. Korea also exports a lot of aerospace materials. For example all F-15 fuselage now is made by KAI and shipped to USA for final assembly.

As it is right now, in SEA, singapore has the largest aerospace industry by far. Malaysia in 2nd place. By 2030 Malaysia aims to be the largest aerospace industry player in SEA. Indonesia cannot be a large aerospace player just by building its own aircraft.
*
Then you should understand when comparing.something, right?

You can compare MY and SG areo industry because both are apple to compare

alexz23
post Oct 6 2021, 10:26 AM

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QUOTE(Lampuajaib @ Oct 6 2021, 10:08 AM)


Sad thing is most major MY defence industries are failing.
Defrech, SMEO, BNS, are failling
*
Want them to succeed?

Do like Korea. Buy local even if it is not cost effective.

Like just buy 100+ new Surion even if need to retire still perfectly operational Blackhawks.

Want deftech to survive? Buy Gempita 8x8 second batch.

Want SMEO to survive? Buy ammo from SMEO periodically, and sell old ammo overseas.

Want BNS to survive? Continue the Gowind project.

alexz23
post Oct 6 2021, 10:34 AM

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QUOTE(Lampuajaib @ Oct 6 2021, 10:26 AM)
Then you should understand when comparing.something, right?

You can compare MY and SG areo industry because both  are apple to compare
*
So compare PTDI to Embraer?

Brazil Embraer is many times more successful than PTDI.

Business jets (Phenom, Praetor), passenger jets (E-Jet), trainer (super tucano) all very popular all over the world.

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