6UEST , you're absolutely right in your assessment .

However, one of the two things I don't sense 'right' (or raising some of my doubt) was about achieved angle readings in Camber .

Yes LF camber positive 0°15' and RF negative 0°15'(at border of limits) are both complying with specs .

Besides , the Cross Camber (LF minus RF) of positive 0°30' also is complying with specs .

However , the LF positive Camber in combination with RF negative Camber may or may not promote pulling left .

Considering our road crown is higher on the RHS slanting downwards towards the LHS of the road , this may further promote pulling left , or it may not ?

True enough after about a week of driving with the alignment angles , the vehicle quite consistently is pulling left on straight highway driving .

Further , it is annoying to me that this alignment job was incomplete as pointed out by you whereby the Caster angle was not measured and displayed ......
which may or may not help to explain the pulling left .

Agree with you on toe readings , which are quite desirable .

For now, I'm a bit 'suspicious' on one aspect of the spec limits displayed though Toyota should have done extensive tests/research to come up with this limits .....

Procedures And Steps To Perform A Wheel Alignment
by Michael Fleming

Front Axle adjustment and 4-wheel Adjustment .
According to Ford Training Module : Sequence of angle adjustment is :
1 ) (Rear Axle) Camber ; >
2 ) (Rear Axle) Toe ; >
3 ) (Front Axle) Caster or Camber ; > ....... ( Question :Should Caster adjustment be given priority here? )
4 ) (Front Axle) Camber or Caster ,whichever one depending on (3) above ; >
5 ) (Front Axle)Toe . Done .


13:38

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 20 2021, 10:46 AM

nobody measures caster... it cannot be adjusted normally... it's only a problem if involved in a big accident

pulling left or right can be tyre related...I changed 4 new tyres, alignment done, but car pull to left...swap tyre left to right solved the problem

pulling one side can also be torque-steer problem...this affects both acceleration and to a degree deceleration

imho your alignment too neutral... easy to drift, not stable at high speed...ok for urban driving... the marginal non symmetric camber is not a problem

btw... didn't you post somewhere last time that you are not a fan of tyre alignment and rotation? anyways not important...

Yes, the positive camber is not ideal. To adjust back to negative you need to get the camber screw.

Caster is rarely measured coz anyway not adjustable unless you use coilovers with pillow ball top mounts.

Sorry Bro just to update here , before the current alignment job the Avanza already had the camber bolts on both Front sides installed . I only paid for labour only at RM30 , in Seremban though .

I suspect this set of camber bolt may have been installed 3.5 years ago when 2 front tyres were replaced new together with an alignment job then . Subsequent to that is the current alignment job we are deliberating today .

Agree with your position on positive Front camber as being not ideal , for on-road applications like my Avanza .

Here is some background and I would appreciate your patience :

1 )For the past one year or so , I have been feeling on cornering right at speed that the steering wheel was rather unsteady/unease/unstable on approaching highway toll booth on exits , not realising something maybe wrong with my (probably highly positive) Left Front camber etc ;

2 )Realising there were some minor heel and toe wear on both front tyres ,made a visit to my mechanic who recommends replacement of sets of Front shock absorbers/lower arms/absorber links/tie rod ends and anti-roll bar bushes and Rear absorber sets .
This 'repair' job makes taking right side cornering even worst than before.
Hence scheduling this alignment job .

3 )This current alignment result of Left Front camber of +ve 0° 15' is much better than before 'repair' on cornering into right side , although the steering wheel was still a bit unsteady/not firm at faster speed .

4 )However, the Right Front camber of -ve 0° 15' gave me very firm and steady steering (which I like it) on making cornering into left on high speed .......
hence my current rumblings on the 'less than ideal' alignment readings , despite within specs and of green colour .

5 )Of course pulling left on straight highway driving further compound my annoyance of less steady cornering into RHS.

Thanks I would do some read up on coilovers with pillow ball top mounts . Any or what difference it has with a camber plate ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 3 2021, 09:36 PM

If already got camber screw them just adjust it until not positive, no need pillow ball coil overs especially on Avanza. Camber plate only to set camber at a fix degree.

Yes @dwRK I used to consider myself as being not a fan of tyre alignment and rotation till todate .

Subsequent to my previous wheel alignment 3.5 years ago post front axle tyres replacements ,about a year later my mechanic did advise me to do another wheel alignment after changing some front suspension parts (not sure whether it is cheapo absorbers or absorber links etc ) .

However as typically , I did not follow through with the alignment advice as I felt vehicle handling/cornering was ok and fine .

This may help explain why about a year ago , I began feeling unsteady/unstable steering wheel during cornering into Right ...... probably caused by and related to out of spec alignment angles .

If not for the recent 'major' front suspension parts replacement and I was troubled by the real 'lousy' right turn cornering and pulling left , I wouldn't have visited this alignment shop .

As regards current alignment values as being too neutral .... easy to drift and unstable at high speed .......
I think you could be right about it including the marginal assymetric camber angles not being a problem .

Do you think an inappropriate or less than 'ideal' non-adjustable front caster angles could lead to my current 'complaints of annoyance' ??? .

I think you are right in suggesting the 3.5 year olds 'worn' front tyres could cause pulling to one side here ......

Unfortunately caster angles are not being checked and measured here , accepting the scenario that Caster angles on Avanza can't be adjusted .

On torque-steer / acceleration/deceleration , I would need to google to read up more about it and appreciate your highlighting of it .

Oh no ... the pulling left phenomenon that I tested occurs at straight ahead driving at a constant road speed of 80/90/110 km per hr , not really during acceleration/deceleration , if that matters .

Quantitatively , I would say my Avanza pulling left fully occupying/blocking neighbouring lane completely in about 6-8 seconds after hands off steering wheel whilst traveling at 90 km/hr .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 4 2021, 11:12 AM

Zeng...... off topic abit but still related to suspension. How's does your new KYB Ultra compare to the stock absorbers that were changed out? Stiffer?

no worries mate... as long as we open to learning and get smarter...

don't worry about caster angle, by process of elimination...it wasn't a problem before ...and it won't change unless car got banged up... caster angles affects steering feel and how the car gets back to center... this is not your problem

since you done major repair, i'd assume its not a mechanical issue anymore with lower arm, etc...

too neutral alignment means... suka suka drift left...suka suka drift right.... your's is pulling left all the time... so for now don't worry about alignment yet...

so the common problems are...1) tyre related, new tyre or old tyres can both cause the symptom due to conicity. 2) steering related, can be leaky internal o-ring, clogged channel or worn gears, causing imbalance L-R force making car pull left. 3) brake drag.

torque steer can occur at constant speed...its just exaggerated during hard accelerations...

Oh yesss..... RS Ultra is a lot lot more stiffer than the cheapo units (brand , don't know) that was removed .
This Avanza is no longer the bouncy , harsh stiff like rock type suspension that I had come to accept for years .....
RS Ultra really drastically smoothened out the uncomfortable bouncing at fast ride over residential area road bumps/yellow paint linings near curve/traffic lights/junctions etc .
The ride now is more comfortable, stable and firm running over uneven road surface at speed ....
and gives a nice sense in driving experience , leading me to have higher expectations on cornering stability/steadiness in fast speed cornering ........
it is now a joy and nice feeling in taking fast corners , where -ve camber angle setup matters a lot .
This RS Ultra is good recommendation I picked from the Avanza car club on lowyat , and I strongly recommend it to all first gen Avanza owners here .
Not sure whether it works equally well in 2nd gen Avanzas or other vehicle models .

Note:My mechanic commented that RS Ultra diameters are much bigger/coarser than the out going units and he demonstrated to me its strong resistance of forceful push against absorber 'piston' vs the old units showing vast differences between them .



This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 4 2021, 01:58 PM

The OEM camber spec of Mininum is -ve 0° 15' , and its Maximum is +ve 1° 15' as per Post #1 .

Now the second 'potential' shortcomings I was suspicious about is the OEM preferred Camber angle of +ve 0° 30' ±0° 45' ....
where tops of tyre are tilted away from vehicle centreline when view from car front or rear .

This IMO , will result in far more unsteady/unstable steering wheel during (fast/hard) cornering into right or left hand sides . Of course it may be fine with slow cornering though .

With a lesser/smaller LF camber of +ve 0° 15' right now ,I can already feel or sense the lack of firmness of steering wheel movement which I felt uncomfortable with at fast cornering . I can't imagine how unsteady would be the steering wheel movement with OEM spec'ed camber of +ve 0° 30' in taking fast corners ?

Why would Toyota specify such 'big' +ve camber in 2007 Avanza 1.3 L ?
Is Avanza 1.5L or of different gen specify same 'big' +ve camber ?

Hope any readers here with other mini MPV/SUV of brands like Nissan, VW, BMW,Honda Toyota etc would upload their wheel alignment screenshots for comparison and further elaboration .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 7 2021, 10:54 AM

we experienced petrolhead just worked with the alignment guys to set to whatever our fancy... no need rely on machine database

new tyres camber sometimes -1.5 to have some high g fun... old tyres -0.5 to even out wear

Not driving an Avanza, but rented 1 b4 in Langkawi As debcribed by you above, its suspensionsetup can be quite harsh when empty/1person. Much quite comfortable when fully loaded (was loaded with 3 fatsos +2 midgets)

I guess it was due the long-ish suspension travel of the front setup on the car, since this is supposed to be a people and/or goods mover.

As McPherson suspension swings up, you gain negative camber due to the geometry movement. Maybe Toyota wants to keep their reputation by limiting -ve camber gain and thus saving its users "unnecessary" tyre wear, when the car is moderately loaded (most probable engineer's goal).

In your case, maybe you were driving alone most of the time. So maybe dats why you feel the suspension setup is shitty.

Yes you're right that I typically drive the Avanza alone and max at 2 pax .

Most owners/drivers of first gen Avanza (2003 - 2011 , F601 F602) has complaints on its 'exceptionally' harsh and bouncy suspension system from factory . Users generally attribute the harsh/bouncy suspension to combo of stiffer spring/softer shock absorber from Factory .

Just prior to this alignment adjustment job , I followed Avanza car group recommendation of switching to stiffer shock absorber ( KYB RS Ultra) in both front and rear and realise that the previously accepted norms of harsh and bouncy suspension and its discomfort is no longer true , but greatly improved now .

From thence on , I tend to speed faster on good/bad pavement and harder cornering only to realise the relevance and importance of -ve camber which I did not much care about or bother about from previously harsh/stiff suspension from factory .

RS Ultra is real steady and smooth on straight ahead driving on highway currently am beginning to like/prefer/enjoy the RF -ve camber of -0°15' in slightly harder cornering and found LF +ve camber +0°15' a bit irritating at cornering into Right . Not sure if higher +ve camber in (Toyota) preferred +0°30' specs would help in steady and smooth suspension either in straight ahead highway driving and/or right/left cornering ? Who knows .

Improved suspension comfort with full load/weight ? I tend to agree with this approach as I'd found out with my Hilux previously .

At similar design load/weight , isn't a stiffer Ori Avanza spring meant to limit McPherson suspension spring travel and/or changes in alignment angles like say , camber ? IDK .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 8 2021, 10:43 AM

Thanks .... a good ballpark range of camber angles to work with , I suppose .
In your experience , is -0.5° camber edge wear easily noticeable by eye sighting or it can only be felt by running hand fingers/palms over tyre surface to 'feel' the wear or no edge wear indication at all ?
A -1.5° camber would give visually noticeable wear indications I guess ...... what about -1° camber wear , can it be seen with naked eyes too ?

-0.5 is not really a lot, will take quite a bit of time to see uneven inner-outer wear, best is measure thread depth. just remember thread depth can be different for each of the longkang when new, so best keep a record if really serious

for the front, the kingpin angle changes camber angle as you corner, so if -0.5 matches your driving style, you will get even wear. it can wear more on the inside if your mileage is 99% straight line, or more outside if your journey has lots of cornering. there is no one size fits all... but -0.5 is good start and future can adjust from there

running hand around tyre is to check for wave pattern...this indicates absorber problem, nothing to do with alignment

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 9 2021, 04:07 PM

this was my front tyre... inner wear from -1.5 camber/toe in, outer wear from hard cornering... overall quite even wear as you can see from center treads

noobs might think this is under inflated tyre so the wear is on the edges... it's not...I pump it 36 psi, lol

this tyre done over 70k km, and rotated twice... my setting now quite neutral about -0.6 to get more center wear whilst waiting for new tyres launch this year...



This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 9 2021, 03:44 PM

your car keep pulling left... what we also don't know is the rear tyre alignment ok or not? yes I know torsion beam nothing to adjust... but if you hit potholes it can lari cause your car to drift also

it won't affect turn left vs turn right steering feel... for that my wild guess is you're on old tyres that have developed strong conicity due to previous suspension problems and lack of rotation

Brilliant ........ a picture speaks a thousand words .

You gave me a superbly useful idea here in taking pictures periodically on tyre conditions with attached remarks (as I did with my engine oil blotter spot tests ) ..... as a way of observing and keeping track of developments surrounding alignment angles selection choices and and tyre wear trending .

The inner edge pattern has a marginally greater/higher wear rate than that of the outer edge . Granted your specific driving pattern and respective proportion of mileages on straight ahead vs cornering/curved roads , I would speculate this inner edge wear is solely attributed to the 'excessive' camber angle of -1.5° , assuming your toe-in has never gone into negative toe out during the 70K km usage AND underinflation has never occurred which I suppose is highly likely . Not sure if you would agree with .

On outer edge wear , I beg to differ from you and wish to argue that it is not contributed by hard cornering as you proposed but 'solely' caused by toe in over huge amount of straight ahead driving ? I am ignoring quantitative amount or causes of wear within region 5-10 mm from the outer edge sidewall .

dwRK, can you share the amount of toe in as 'installed' then ?

As regards pumped pressure of 36 psi , may I know what is the factory recommended psi for said vehicle ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 9 2021, 07:33 PM

toe is usually very small... around 0.3~1 mm... don't need much & I don't pay too much attention to it, just making sure its +ve or -ve as appropriate

my tyre wear actually suggests my -1.5 camber is not enough, should not be wearing the outside edges too much but I'm reluctant to go higher. fyi hard cornering wear both inner and outer edge...depending on inside/outside wheel... and rwd cars wear slightly different from fwd cars

my car spec is 34... I pump 35-36 for better handling because I have a soft sidewall tyre

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 10 2021, 07:28 AM