Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Bump Topic Topic Closed RSS Feed
7 Pages < 1 2 3 4 5 > » Bottom

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

views
     
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:16 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 11:47 PM)
the problem here is that we are trying to find a humanly understandable answer to the question how can God be one yet three. which frankly is quite impossible.

this is where faith kicks in.

if we can't accept that, then it is just too bad for us.

this is why i keep pointing out that the experience part of our relationship with Christ plays an important part.

as we put our trust in God, He in turns reveals His reality to us.

don't ask me why, but faith is an important ingredient.
*
That's why most verses in clear are crystal clear without even need for an expalanation to back it up.

But some verses do contradict one another, let alone if we try to fit it according to individual understanding.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:19 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 11:51 PM)
Yes I know..He's a moslem.

He tried very hard to convince Christians that Christ Jesus is just a prophet.

It's impossible for our Lord to be a mere human prophet.

Before Abraham was, I AM. <---That is more enough to convince even the lay person.

How can a mere prophet who is born after Abraham say He is before Abraham? Doesn't make any sense doesn't it?

That's the part he quietly evaded.

If I were to show this Zakir Naik, what would he say? I wonder... tongue.gif
*
I did post my reply, and u even did reply to my reply.
I stated that my stand is the father is the only true god as mentioned by jesus in john 17:3.

Even i started posting in this thread when someone mention about the father, not jesus.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:21 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 11:52 PM)
it is ok to engage him in a proper discussion
*
Thank you bro.
I do really appreciate your effort.
Even if we have different understanding, i do respect your attitude.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:22 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 11:56 PM)
Well I agree, as long as the discussion or point being made is not repeative over and over again. Now...that would be a problem.
*
Then i think we can move on to other topics besides john 8?
Or are u gonna repeat about it again?
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:27 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(thomasthai @ Mar 18 2020, 05:06 AM)
It is important that in reading any scriptures, you let the text explain what it means rather than to put your own meaning into the text.
From the jews' question, it is obvious that Jesus was claiming either He was the oldest person alive (Abraham died more than a thousand years before Jesus came) or He was claiming the Eternal attribute of God. Notice that it is not I was or I will be.

The jews are super careful to not simply misuse the name of God, the YHWH.

Leviticus 24 says that blaspheming the name of God must be stoned to death.
*
The 50 years old part is connected with the rebirth if I'm not mistaken.
I do believe before born into this world, all prophets already existed and appointed in plain of God's knowledge. Besides jeremiah 1:5, i do remember there is another verse mentioning about this but forgot the place.

If we read john 8 from first verse, the issue is about the prophecy of jesus, no issue of godhood was discussed.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:29 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 18 2020, 11:08 AM)
The bolded part that you wrote above is strange. The Word is none other than Jesus Himself (God the Son). See John 1.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
*
Agree with u.
Word of god on this verse is the jesus.

In my previous post I've already mentioned why we must careful when interpreting or try to explain a verse, especially if it might involves translation error.

aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:31 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 11:51 PM)

If I were to show this Zakir Naik, what would he say? I wonder... tongue.gif
*
Please dont let your emotions invading this group discussion.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 04:13 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 18 2020, 02:35 PM)
The point still stands.

Jesus was born after Abraham. It would not make sense to say He is before Abraham.

You understand what does it mean..Born after Abraham?

----------------------------------------------------

If all prophets already existed, so you're impying prophets are magical creatures that isn't human? They can live thousands of years?

Jesus was a prophet who lived before Abraham then suddenly disapear and born as a virgin in Mary?

Is that critical thinking or even rationale?
*
They have existed either magically or spiritually i dont know cz the bible didnt elaborate it, hence is why i quote the jeremiah 1:5.

Existed is not same as born. Same as when we died doesn't mean we not exist spiritually, our body died. Applied also to when we born, our body is born, not our spirit.

Where does it say jesus lived before abraham and disappeared?

aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 04:15 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(pehkay @ Mar 18 2020, 02:51 PM)
I think from academic point of view: there is a good reference: The Revelation of the Name YHWH to Moses Perspectives from Judaism, the Pagan Graeco-Roman World, and Early Christianity.

Here are the list of scholars who present from Judaism to Greco-roman to early Christianity.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Basically, this selection of papers allows us to conclude that the Name of God and its revelation to Moses constitute a major theme which  runs from the book of Exodus through the Old Testament, early Judaism, and early Christianity. It also attracted pagan philosophical interest, both positive and negative. One of the most important results to emerge from this volume is the insight that the Name of God was not only perceived from an insider’s perspective, but also provoked a reaction from outsiders. The combined perspectives show the fundamental importance of the divine Name for the formation of Jewish and Christian identities.

Even the critics from the Greco-roman world knew and assumed that is what the early Jewish believes.

1) The classical world e.g. te philosopher Pythagoras dependent on the mysteries of Moses-Mochos, and characterized Moses’ God, in an ontological way, as ‘He who is’, as ‘the noetic light’, and ‘the highest God’. These authors considered him unnameable and invisible, called him the ‘one true God’, ‘He who is above the seven celestial spheres, i.e. the creator’, and named him1 not only ‘Iao’ (Greek for ‘Yahweh’) and ‘Sabaoth’ but also ‘Dionysus’ and ‘Jupiter Sabazius’.

2) Greek philosopher Numenius of Apemea shows Moses holds a special status as a Platonist avant la lettre, and that the episode of the revelation of God’s Name as ‘Being’ (ontology).

3) Numenius, a Platonist philosopher, has positive evaluation of Moses, the Jews and their God contrasts sharply with the attack by another second-century ce Platonist, Celsus, on the Christian Origen. This issue is treated in a
Whereas Numenius considers the Jews to stand out from the other peoples who claim to possess age-old wisdom, Celsus criticizes the Jews and the Christians for claiming a monopoly in this. He argues ‘that the Jews and the Christians were wrong not to worship Zeus, for this
is in fact the same god as theirs, be it that the Greeks just happen to call him differently.’

The Greeks knew what the Jewish was talking about.

It is no surprise that in this Gospel of John, Jesus is presented as the Old Testament Kyrios, YHWH.

I end with this quote on John:

First of all, Jesus’ I am-sayings allude to the Old Testament name of God. Like many other exegetes, David Mark Ball associates these sayings not in the first place with Exod 3:14 LXX (§g≈ efimi ı vÖn), but predominantly with Deutero-Isaiah (cf. also Lietaert Peerbolte, this vol., §4 on the Deutero-Isaian background of Phil 2:9), where  yna, awhAyna, and awh ykna frequently occur as sayings of YHWH, which were translated in the Septuagint as §g≈ efimi. 14 We will look at some of the I am-sayings in the Gospel of John.

In John 6:20 Jesus says, when he walks on the water and a strong wind was blowing: §g≈ efimi: mØ fobe›sye. 15 Ball points to several Old Testament texts where YHWH combines the very same expressions, ‘I am’ and ‘do not be afraid’ (Gen 26:24; 46:3; Jer 1:8; 1:17; 26:28 LXX = 46:28 MT; 49:11 LXX = 42:11 MT).16 One might add that the story that Jesus walks on the water also corresponds with YHWH trampling the waves of the sea, according to Job 9:8 and Ps 89:10.

In John 8:12 Jesus says: ‘I am the light of the world’. Thus the evangelist identifies him with the Logos in the Prologue, who is called the light of men ( John 1:4–9).17 In the Old Testament YHWH is repeatedly called the light (Exod 13:21–22; Ps 27:1; Isa 60:1; 60:19).

In John 8:18, 24, and 28 Jesus again says §g≈ efimi; in vv. 24 and 28 it is used without predicate. Ball interprets these texts as allusions to words of YHWH in Deutero-Isaiah (43:10; 43:25; 52:6).18

In John 8:56–58 Jesus refers to Abraham who rejoiced to see ‘my day’, after which he says: ‘before Abraham was, I am’. The day that Abraham saw may be interpreted with regard to the three angels, one of whom was YHWH, who visited Abraham and Sarah (Gen 18:1–15),19 but the day of Jesus has also been identified as the eschatological day of YHWH.20 In the commentaries Abraham’s vision of Jesus’ day in John 8:56 is often related to Isaiah’s temple vision of Jesus ( John 12:40–41), but it must be admitted that the purport of John 8:56 is less precise.21 In any case, in John 8:58 Jesus clearly alludes to his pre-existence. Since §g≈ efimi occurred in John 8 several times already, and since these words could be interpreted as references to YHWH, it may be assumed that in John 8:58 as well
the Johannine Jesus alludes to his essential nature.2

John 10:11, ‘I am the good shepherd’, refers among other texts to Ezek 34, where YHWH is the shepherd who will take care of his people (Ezek 34:12–22; 34:31; only in 34:23 the shepherd is David). Some other texts that depict YHWH as a shepherd are Pss 23:1–4; 79:13; 80:1; Isa 40:11.23

In John 18:5–6 Jesus’ twofold saying ‘I am’, without predicate, was so impressive that those who had come to arrest him drew back  and fell to the ground. This looks like a theophany. In John 18:8 Jesus confirms his ‘I am’ for the third time.2

Ball concludes from these and other texts in the Fourth Gospel that by the application of §g≈ efimi to the Johannine Jesus, an identification with the words and salvation of the God of DeuteroIsaiah, i.e. YHWH, is implied.25
Urk, the quotes are hard to copy paste. But the point is clear. Cheers!
*
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 04:22 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Imagine i read and reply at the same time study the chapter on mobile.
Long post like this easily can fill my screen entirely.

aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 11:20 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 18 2020, 04:40 PM)
.
It's not nice and respectful to lie to others. You have wasted my time by lying to me. I think God/Jesus has punished you for it, as per His law of ni4ni, ie wasted your time. God is real and watching us.
.
*
I'm more to protestant, I'm not a protestant.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 11:22 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 18 2020, 09:21 PM)
FYI:

Afaik:

Intentionally proselytizing to a Muslim is an offense under Malaysian Law.

1PETER.5: = 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
.
*
Sorry, can u clarify the proselytizing part?
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 11:51 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 18 2020, 11:38 PM)
.
In Malaysia, a Muslim who declares himself/herself to be "more to Protestant"(= interested in Protestantism.?) can be hauled up by the local Syariah authorities for the offense of apostasy.

If you are in Malaysia, be careful, eg other Muslims may report you to the Syariah authorities.
.
*
Thanks for the remainder bro.

But i do reply properly especially when related to religion. Other people be a moslem or christian can feel free to report me.

In christian, there is no 1 faction to represent all. Thus divided between on belief whether u choose to be a catholic, protestant, orthodox, unitarian, trinitarian, so others that lead to heresy in christian.

I must say of all chapters in the bible, I'm really moved by john 17. It's like a summary to jesus life.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 11:52 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 18 2020, 11:42 PM)
Aaah, now i get it.
I thought u tell me i try to convery someone here to become a moslem.

Thanks for clarifying it.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 11:55 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 18 2020, 11:38 PM)
.
I asked you whether you are a Protestant Christian and told you that I usually ignore non-Protestants. Your answer to my question inferred that you are more to Protestant Christian than Catholic Christian, not that you are not a Protestant.
....... Now, it's quite evident you had the intention to mislead me into not ignoring you, a Muslim. It's a form of twisting words to hoodwink and take advantage of others, similar to how people are hoodwinked into investing in MLM money scams.
.
In Malaysia, a Muslim who declares himself/herself to be "more to Protestant"(= interested in Protestantism.?) can be hauled up by the local Syariah authorities for the offense of apostasy.

If you are in Malaysia, be careful, eg other Muslims may report you to the Syariah authorities.
.
*
If that time u question my answer such as 'what do u mean by 'more to protestant'?
I will definitely told u that I'm a moslem.

But since everyone here reply so fast, i thought no one thinks about it.
No need to check my background or history of my post, just ask here and u will get the answer.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 11:59 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
But i really need evidence showing anyone to have higher authority/divine/power/ability than the father.
aral3005
post Mar 19 2020, 11:11 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 19 2020, 12:41 AM)
.
This is a Christian Fellowship thread = not suitable for Christian vs Muslim debate. You may have better luck at the Real World Issues section, where such debates between different religious adherents and even non-religious adherents(eg atheists) are common, eg https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4861839/+1440
.
*
That's already specific topic.
So far I've only discussed and using the bible without even touching other religion or even using my emotions.

Or do u treat this thread as your online church?
aral3005
post Mar 19 2020, 11:15 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(thomasthai @ Mar 19 2020, 07:37 AM)
@aral3005

Besides trying to understand bits and pieces here and there in the scriptures, another way to interpreting scripture is piecing the whole book and find out the author's intention and what he was trying to say.

So what was the apostle John's intention for writing the book?
You see, in the opening of the book, John already said the Word was with God, and was God in the very beginning.

There you have it, the declaration that Jesus was with God, and was God.

This has tripped people over for 2000 years. How can Jesus be God and be with God? John doesn't explain.

That is the mystery of the Trinity.

The whole gospel of John presents Jesus as God.
*
So meaning in the beginning only have 2 gods?

There are verses that crystal clear, and also verses which another verses can contadict it. I will stick with the clear ones.

aral3005
post Mar 19 2020, 11:17 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 19 2020, 11:57 AM)
Even in John 17, there are verses that proves Jesus is God.

Hint: Only God can give eternal life
*
Ao regarding john 17, did the god died on cross?
aral3005
post Mar 21 2020, 01:31 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,102 posts

Joined: Jul 2008
From: Kuala Lumpur
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Long post, and touch many topics here.
But at least u are using the verses, and not emotions or imagination.
Will bookmark this post first and ask u later, if I ccome across one.

The father is not 'seems' to have supreme authority. He is the absolute authority. U can find on how many verses mention the father that gave jesus authority/miracles/knowledge.

So did the god died on the cross?

7 Pages < 1 2 3 4 5 > » Top
Topic ClosedOptions
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.3192sec    0.48    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 12th December 2025 - 05:06 AM