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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

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aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 01:04 AM

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QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 12:03 AM)
agreed.
but where in these verses imply that only the Father can forgive sins?

i ask this because to me it seems that, that is  your contention, that the Father only forgive sins and not Jesus.
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May be u can give clear verse as above showing jesus forgive sin?

I do hv a question but want let current dust settle first, then i can move on to my question.
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 01:52 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 17 2020, 12:17 AM)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript
.
https://biblehub.com/text/john/8-58.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/3-14.htm

Both JOHN.8:58 of the original New Testament in Greek and EXO.3:14 of the original Old Testament in Hebrew,  were translated by Bible language experts into "I AM" in today's English.
....... So, Jesus Christ was the God of Moses and the God of Doubting Thomas(JOHN.20:28).
.
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The word 'am' in john 8:58 is derived from greek text 'eimi' which can be translated to other word such as 'was", 'have'

But the point is the original text is not even the same, hence why 2 different phrase can be translated to one ' i am'.

I suggest u just to search the original text and u will find the last phrase not even the same and translated into one 'i am'.

Usually certain words need to be read and translated carefully when reading bible, such as 'son of god' or 'god'
Here in john 20:28 john expressed/saying my lord and my god, does not necessarily means jesus is god.
To me this verse contradicting another verses in the bible, some even come out from jesus himself.

aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 02:00 AM

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QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 01:45 AM)
i already posted the verses earlier.
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U mean authority given by the father?

I do believe jesus can do something after given authority/permission by the father.
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 01:28 PM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Mar 17 2020, 06:38 AM)
Hi friend,

You are correct, sometimes in Greek, the context has to determine the meaning of the word used.

In John's gospel, we see Jesus declared Himself 'I am' many times.
But when He said before Abraham was, I am,  that was no doubt a divine declaration.

The jews understood that was the divine YHWH name because they picked up stones to try to kill Him. It was blasphemy to them.

So the english translators were correct to equate it to the YHWH/ I AM.
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In my previous post i mentioned about the jews earlier question, they hardly accept when jesus compare himself to great prophet abraham as a prophet and how they react to it by try to stone jesus.

They are following Deuteronomy 18:20 that false prophets must be killed.

Or perhaps u can find a verse where the jews must kill false god in the bible?
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 01:30 PM

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QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 07:28 AM)
on that there is no doubt.
So Jesus answered them by saying, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself [of His own accord], unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever things the Father does, the Son [in His turn] also does in the same way.
John 5:19 AMP
https://bible.com/bible/1588/jhn.5.19.AMP

What is your real point to all these questions?
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True that jesus by himself can do nothing except what's been given to him by the father - listen, speak, miracles, knowledge all come from the father

Indicates jesus has lower authority than the father
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 01:39 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 09:38 AM)
Well Bible truth or revelation needs the Holy Spirit to be made known.

Yes somethings in Bible can be understood plainly but bear mind, it can be plain to you but not plain to people who hates God.

I am in a way a scholar because I've great interest in God's word.
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I believe to be a scholar u must be objective and critical while doing research and study.

Most verses are clear, some needs to be interpreted by an expert to the true meaning

Where do u study the bible?
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 02:01 PM

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QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 01:40 PM)
as an ordinary human being, I am not privy to divine authority levels nor am i able to understand even I am privy to it, so it is moot to me.

what i do know and personally experienced is sufficient for me to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God as He claims to be, whatever that title may actually mean.

to try go further is an exercise in futility.

i would rather spend my time and energy serving my God as He leads me in everyday life. it gives me joy and fulfillment to see the blessing others receive when i do that.
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True

But we have been given the bible as the primary source of knowledge and faith in christianity. The bible is the ultimate guide for christian followers.

Personal experience can be different from a person to a person. Those not guided by the bible that actually give birth to heresy in christianity.

Do not go further from what has been given to us - jesus teachings and the bible.

I do serve by adding knowledge by reading the bible.
Without following the bible it will be just a blind faith.
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 03:34 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 02:27 PM)
Objective and Critical yes but not in terms of human understanding.

The word of God is not human originated.

What I'm trying to say is that you cannot interpret the word of God according to human critical reasoning.

Do you understand the term Bible interpret Bible?
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Not human originated - yes
But reveal to human - yes

Throughout the bible jesus use simple language that easy to be understand by the people at that time.

When the people is not believe of him to be the prophet even though explained repeatedly, then jesus say:

John 8:43
"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message."

The reason some people not believe him is bcz they are unable to accept his message.

One do not need to be a genius to learn the bible, let alone be one infused/possessed by holy spirit to be able to read the bible normally.

Does a non christian need to be in special condition to read the bible?

aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 03:37 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 17 2020, 02:15 PM)
.
The Father is eternally in heaven, ie not on earth. Jesus Christ or God-in-the-flesh or God-in-the-Spirit(2COR.3:17, JOHN.6:63) was/is/will be on earth. Of course the Father in heaven is greater  or has more authority than the Son on earth because of the where of God, ie in heaven or on earth. As permitted by God, the ruler of this rotten earth is Satan, not God/Jesus - REV.12:9, JOHN.14:30 & 16:11.

Similarly, the Agong is great in power and authority in Malaysia, eg to pardon prisoners, appoint the PM, dissolve Parliament, etc, but once he is outside Malaysia, eg in China or USA or Europe, he is very much less powerful.  Same for the Arab kings and rulers in the Middle-East.

At present, USA is the superpower of the world. The Agong and PM8 are very much less powerful on the world stage = like jaguh kampung.
.
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So u agree the father has higher authority than jesus? And they are not co-equal?are they even from same being/person if can differ so much?
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 03:40 PM

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QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 03:34 PM)
The bible is mostly straight forward and easy to understand. Granted there are some very obscure passages.

From my personal experience, these passages usually become clear when I have a need to understand them

yes what you say is correct, but at the same time there is a balance and a limit on how we are to read and dig into the shades of meanings  found in the bible.

Paul wrote to Timothy

Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means  of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
I Timothy 6:1‭-‬5 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1ti.6.1-5.NKJV
so unless there is a need for me , i usually put those questions in a mental "when I meet God face to face i am going to ask Him what this means" notebook.

in general, following Micah's advice is sufficient for us to live a life of faith.

He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/mic.6.8.NKJV
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Agree on most of verses in the bible have clear meaning without even a need for explanation.

Great reading there bro.

Thanks for posting with verses related to your expalanation.

aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 04:37 PM

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QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 03:56 PM)
Thanks.

Now I have a question for you.

Would you consider christians who follow the biblical teachings, even when they don't fully understand them, as people who have blind faith?
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Do u mean jesus teachings?
If it means to follow what's already taught by jesus, at the same time u have faith in jesus, and not don't fully understand it - that's not blind faith.

At least we need to understand what's been given to us, and follow them.
I do understand what's jesus's been giving to us - teachings, commandments - then i follow
No need to dig as why jesus say that, why not saying something suitable to your expectations, worst part try to change jesus words/the teachings itself

U have to understand why u believe in jesus, and after that, just follow his teachings without question it
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 17 2020, 04:27 PM)
.
For my answers, please refer to my thread Issue#10 - What is the Holy Trinity.?, as told to you earlier.

Conversely, Satan has more authority and power on earth than in heaven, eg in the Story of Job, God permitted Satan to powerfully afflict Job and his family on earth because of Job's ignorant sin - JOB.1:5 & 3:25, ie he ignorantly sinned against God by offering a vile offering just in case his spoiled sons might commit sin to cause him to lose all his hard-earned prosperity. In effect, Job was trying to buy Prosperity insurance from God to cover for his sons' probable future sins. 
....... In the Malay world, the demonic powers of kampung bomohs to concoct spells/charms and hexes are legend, eg minyak dagu, jampi, etc.

If God were to summon Satan from earth to heaven, Satan would be powerless and has no authority in front of the heavenly throne of God. This exact scenario will happen when God sends Satan, his demons and 2ndly-resurrected human followers/unbelievers to eternal hell or the lake of fire on Judgment Day - REV.20:11-15.
....... It is the same Satan who appears as above on earth and in heaven.

Similarly, it is the same God who appears on earth with less authority/powers and in heaven with full authority/powers.

Believers need to know this clearly before they die on this rotten earth, be resurrected/raptured, live with Jesus Christ for a thousand years on a new earth and can eventually see God the Father on His mighty throne in heaven. Like I said before, a great gulf separates heaven and earth/hell because of Satan's rebellion in heaven and Adam's fall on earth. Only the Lord/God Jesus Christ can bridge this gulf and reconcile fallen Man on earth with God in heaven. It's like only Jesus Christ can miraculously bring His people to live with Him on the sun.
.
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I read last paragraph, are u indicating jesus is a messiah/prophet?

Mind to tell how the same God as in heaven appears on earth with less authority?isn't that 2 different persons?
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 11:16 PM

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QUOTE(tipuism @ Mar 17 2020, 06:37 PM)
lets look at what the bible say.
Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is:  ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’  This is the first commandment.  And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12:29‭-‬31 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/mrk.12.29-31.NKJV

then Jesus declares Himself equal with God

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:16‭-‬18 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.5.16-18.NKJV

then Jesus said He will leave and send someone else in His place

“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 14:25‭-‬26 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.14.25-26.NKJV

this is the same Holy Spirit who decended upon Jesus when He was baptised by John the Baptist

And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
John 1:32‭-‬33 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.1.32-33.NKJV

so what is it? God is one or three now?

on top of that in Revelation it says.

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Revelation 3:1 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rev.3.1.NKJV

so is the Christian God, one, three or seven?

the answer is blowing in the wind my friend.

but lets take another look at what the bible  have to say.

firstly, God always refered to Himself in the prural

Gen 1: 1, 26 says

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
........
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Genesis 1:1‭, ‬26 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.1.1-26.NKJV

what did the apostle Paul say?

Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
I Thessalonians 4:1‭-‬8 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1th.4.1-8.NKJV

yet in another letter Paul states

I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There  is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:1‭-‬6 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/eph.4.1-6.NKJV

is Paul confused?

or is it that our minds cannot wrap around the reality that God is not bound by natural laws or limited to human understanding, being able to be One yet Three ?

the clue is actually found in Isaiah 11

There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord . His delight is in the fear of the Lord , And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
Isaiah 11:1‭-‬3 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.11.1-3.NKJV

these verses are attributed to Jesus, whose coming was foretold by Isaiah, having the seven fold Spirit of God (Rev 3:1) resting upon Him (John 1:33)
In simple terms the Spirit of God manifested in seven ways (for the lack of a better word)
although i will be first to admit that this is not concrete proof that God is One yet Three, to my mind, God had to simplify His manifestation to a level we humans can at least identify with. i.e. in the form of a man Jesus Christ.

if you think this is confusing, wait till you try to grasp how Jesus can be fully man and fully God at the same time, to fulfill the requirement for a redeeming sacrifice for all the sins of man.
i fall back to my earlier post, that i do not need to comprehend how Three can be One because God will be God and we need the element of faith when it comes to trusting Him.

the bible plainly states

But without faith it  is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/heb.11.6.NKJV

so who am i to insist i have to understand first then trust?

but having said that, i must also stress that i believe also because  the bible is the word of God.

As a whole, it is a coherent, consistent and pretty amazing book with more than 40 writers spanning more than a thousand years apart. And most of the writers did not know each other but had one Spirit inspiring them to say and record words that will later be compiled into what we have today, the modern bible.

when I choose to follow it's teachings, i find that i benefit and at the same time benefit those around me, consistently bring good and love and peace etc, demonstrating that the God that i believe in is a good God, because you will know a tree by the kind of fruit it bears.

coming back to your post
is it one person or two persons?

its supposed to be three yet one.
God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit

how?
thats one of the questions i have in my mental note book.
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I think i have ask this before - is there any verse showing these 3 are 1?
I think unknown warrior already tried to answer by posted a verse but i found the translation to have different meaning from his.

The first commandment is when jesus speaks to the jews.
'Our god' is the father in this sentence, not jesus.
Or are u trying to push forward about hypostatic union of jesus?

In john 20:17, jesus clearly differentiate himself from god:
“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”
Which tell us jesus is referring to the same person - the father

I do agree with hebrew 11:6
As jesus said in john 8:29
"He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.”

1, 3, 7?
Why u dont include all 12 disciples?
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 11:19 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 17 2020, 10:29 PM)
.
I already told you a few times who Jesus s/o Joseph or Isa bin Yusof is, according to the Word of God. It is up to you to accept or reject what is stated in the Bible about Jesus Christ.

1THESS.4:16-17 says that the Lord/God Jesus Christ will be returning to this rotten earth to save/deliver His people from persecution/prosecutipn by the powerful governments of the world and destroy/judge the unbelievers and this earth. Some mature spiritual Christians expect His return within the next few decades = coming soon.

Of course the Muslims have their own version for the return of their Mahdi/Messiah/Christ, ie to save/deliver the Muslims and destroy/judge the non-Muslims. .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
.
Let's just wait and see who has the truth. No point arguing between Christians and Muslims about the Return of Christ/Mahdi/Messiah to this earth or about the way to heaven or hell after death since it's about different beliefs about the future.
.
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I do agree
Only discuss what's from the bible without mix it from other belief or religion.
So far we have good discussion exchanging verses and and without any input from other religion.
aral3005
post Mar 17 2020, 11:31 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 11:18 PM)
Only God has this ability. To be Triune and yet distinct.
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Which one of the god in trinity has this ability?
Are these 3 gods in trinity/triune co equal?

In previous post someone already mentioned about authority given to jesus. As in john 5:30:
"I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

I stand firm that the father is the only true god as jesus said in john 17:3:
"Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

In all bible, this is a saying by jesus himself, and exclusive to the father alone as there are many gods depicted in the bible.

No verse mention in the bible that anything or anyone to have greater power or higher authority than the father.

That's my stand based on the bible, not by emotions or my imagination.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:06 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 11:51 PM)
Yes I know..He's a moslem.

He tried very hard to convince Christians that Christ Jesus is just a prophet.

It's impossible for our Lord to be a mere human prophet.

Before Abraham was, I AM. <---That is more enough to convince even the lay person.

How can a mere prophet who is born after Abraham say He is before Abraham? Doesn't make any sense doesn't it?

That's the part he quietly evaded.

If I were to show this Zakir Naik, what would he say? I wonder... tongue.gif
*
Lel

I finished my work last night and only to be able to read 2 posts since it's a long post and started to rain so i just hv to get back home immediately.

Fyi, I'm a moslem.
I'm not hijacking this thread, and discuss any issue in the bible critically without even giving or creating my own explanation to fit my own imagination - i let the verse speaks as it is.

I do appreciate those replying me engaging with me with academic manner, not some using emotions just to strengthen their expalanation.

Feel free to think if I'm unfit to be in this thread.

Read my post since the beginning i started reply in this v15 thread.

aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:07 PM

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It's a long post #624
Anyway thanks for bringing up the verses.

Still studying your post btw.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 11:12 PM)
The word of God are not dead letters meaning normal letters but are of God's spirit.

So yes, you need the Holy Spirit to have revelation of the Bible.

No wonder When I explain to you..the phrase before Abraham was, I AM you couldn't understand.

You're a moslem yes?
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Yes I'm a moslem.
Regarding john 8, I've already replied to u the verse and my stand.
U can stick to your understanding and i will stick to mine.
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:10 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Mar 17 2020, 11:34 PM)
Well all those distinct character is to prove that God is distinct and yet triune.

John 10:30 (NIV) - I and the Father are one."

John 17:21 (NIV) -that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
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Like i said before, if jesus and the father are one, why u dont include all the disciples and acdept them to be equal to jesus and the father?
aral3005
post Mar 18 2020, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(Roman Catholic @ Mar 17 2020, 11:47 PM)
Bro. Unknown Warrior, I think this thread has been hijacked. Becareful brethren.
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I hope we can becareful when reading the bible.
Can you show me where did i hijacked this thread?why would u feel threatened by using 'hijacked' word when i engage with knowledge and even no harsh word or emotions?

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