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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 3 2020, 09:45 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Apr 2 2020, 11:45 PM)
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Your interpretation of Jesus Christ saying, "You shall gouge out your eyes and chop off your hands." at MATT.5:27-30 as a law, is not found in God's Law in the Old Testament. So, it is a "new law" which you falsely claimed that Jesus Christ has raised to replace or destroy the old law of "You shall not commit adultery." = earlier you challenged me to keep this "new law" by gouging out my eyes and chopping off my hands to prove that I can keep the Law since I had questioned your previous statement that "nobody can actually keep the Law." as not in accordance with the Scripture at MATT.19:16-22 and ROMANS.2:14 which showed that even Jews and Greeks/Gentiles could keep the Law by not committing intentional or willful sins/law-breaking/evil-deeds.

In fact, Jesus Christ Himself stated that the law, "You shall not commit adultery.", was an old law or a law which applied to those of old; and He did not classify His Word about plucking out your eyes and cutting off your hands as a law. Only you have falsely claimed that Jesus Christ raised the law of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands. If as you falsely claimed, to me that is a "new law" vs the old law, similar to NT vs OT. .......

MATT.5:27-30 = Adultery in the Heart

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Good day.
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 3 2020, 12:42 AM)
So if verse 27 mention it is of Old, Then what was mention in verse 28 is then refering to the same Law but Jesus raised it higher. It is a Law then!
....

So why aren't you submitting to this then?
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Like I told you before, as per EXODUS.20, that was not how the Lord/God Jesus Christ issued His laws/commandments, ie your "higher law" of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands at MATT.5:27-30. Again I ask you, did any of the apostles mention this "higher law" of yours in their letters/epistles.? Cf: .......

1COR.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

GAL.5: = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Only you have falsely claimed that Jesus Christ has raised a "higher law" of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands over the "lower law" of 'You shall not commit adultery'. None of the apostles have made such a false claim, ie they still preserved the Old Testament law against unrepentant adulterers as those not inheriting the kingdom of God. Jesus Christ Himself confirmed the same at REV.22:15.
....... Those Christians who unrepentantly broke the Law by intentionally or willfully committing adultery will not be saved from hell, not those who broke your "higher law" by intentionally or willfully refusing to gouge out their eyes and chop off their hands. Your false claim about Jesus Christ raising a "higher law" of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands, just to win an argument over your previous/old false statement that 'nobody can actually keep the Law' may mislead others.

QUOTE
You'd think it's for fun? There is a reason and there is a purpose.
The purpose of Jesus Christ was definitely not to raise a "higher law" of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands over the "lower law" of 'You shall not commit adultery'. Didn't He say at MATT.5:17 that He did not come to destroy the Law.? Raising a "higher law" over the previous or old "lower law" was in effect destroying the Law, as given by Him/God in the Old Testament.

Like I told you before, the purpose was for Him to tell the Jews and Pharisees that with His 1st Coming to earth, they could no longer rely on the Law to save them from hell, eg could no longer rely on "You shall not commit adultery" because they had a deeper problem with their heart, not just with their eyes and hands, in the breaking of the Law by committing adultery - MARK.7:21-23.
....... Only Jesus Christ could solve this deeper problem by giving them a new born-again heart of the Spirit(not of Adam) and actually saving them from hell by them having faith in Him(and not in the Law).

Our differences in understanding the Bible are minor, mostly just personal differences in trying to score "more goals" than the other. To me, the more important thing is God/Jesus-Christ, through His Word, scoring more goals, not me or you.
....... Also, it's just that I think I may have a "higher understanding" than you. smile.gif

Good day.
.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 3 2020, 09:47 AM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 3 2020, 12:57 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Apr 3 2020 @ 09:45 AM)
.
Like I told you before, as per EXODUS.20, that was not how the Lord/God Jesus Christ issued His laws/commandments, ie your "higher law" of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands at MATT.5:27-30. Again I ask you, did any of the apostles mention this "higher law" of yours in their letters/epistles.? Cf: .......

1COR.6: =  9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

GAL.5: = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Only you have falsely claimed that Jesus Christ has raised a "higher law" of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands over the "lower law" of 'You shall not commit adultery'. None of the apostles have made such a false claim, ie they still preserved the Old Testament law against unrepentant adulterers as those not inheriting the kingdom of God. Jesus Christ Himself confirmed the same at REV.22:15.
....... Those Christians who unrepentantly broke the Law by intentionally or willfully committing adultery will not be saved from hell, not those who broke your "higher law" by intentionally or willfully refusing to gouge out their eyes and chop off their hands. Your false claim about Jesus Christ raising a "higher law" of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands, just to win an argument over your previous/old false statement that 'nobody can actually keep the Law' may mislead others.

The purpose of Jesus Christ was definitely not to raise a "higher law" of gouging out your eyes and chopping off your hands over the "lower law" of 'You shall not commit adultery'. Didn't He say at MATT.5:17 that He did not come to destroy the Law.? Raising a "higher law" over the previous or old "lower law" was in effect destroying the Law, as given by Him/God in the Old Testament.

Like I told you before, the purpose was for Him to tell the Jews and Pharisees that with His 1st Coming to earth, they could no longer rely on the Law to save them from hell, eg could no longer rely on "You shall not commit adultery"  because they had a deeper problem with their heart, not just with their eyes and hands, in the breaking of the Law by committing adultery - MARK.7:21-23.
....... Only Jesus Christ could solve this deeper problem by giving them a new born-again heart of the Spirit(not of Adam) and actually saving them from hell by them having faith in Him(and not in the Law).

Our differences in understanding the Bible are minor, mostly just personal differences in trying to score "more goals" than the other. To me, the more important thing is God/Jesus-Christ, through His Word, scoring more goals, not me or you.
....... Also, it's just that I think I may have a "higher understanding" than you.  smile.gif

Good day.
.
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 3 2020, 10:43 AM)
Raising the law to a higher standard does not mean destroying the old Law, it is enforcing the law to a higher degree.

The apostles did not mention this in their epistles but they sure recorded Jesus saying of this in Matthew 5:28-30 as part of the synoptic gospel.

They did not deny this, but I see from the above you're trying very hard to deny this.

I'm not falsely claiming anything, it's there in the book of Matthew. Since it's refering to the OT Law then by the reason of it..it is  Law.
Wow.! ... Seems you are even denying the Scripture I have quoted to you, 1COR.6:9-11, GAL.5:19-21 and REV.22:15, where both the apostle Paul and Jesus Christ stated that only those Christians who unrepentantly broke the Law by intentionally or willfully committing adultery will not inherit the kingdom of God, not those Christians who unrepentantly broke your "higher law" by intentionally or willfully refusing to gouge out their eyes and chop off their limbs.

QUOTE
There is a purpose why Christ raise the Bar higher. It's purpose to bring Man to the end of himself into thinking...I cannot do this, Save me Lord.

Same thing that  happened to the Young Rich Ruler, He was given the Law by Christ,

Remember he said..ALL THESE I've Kept from youth. (Matthew 19:20) Then Jesus told him to Sell all he had and give to the poor..Was Christ raising the Bar higher?

Yes He did. The sad thing is...the young rich ruler went away. He could have relent and cry out to the Lord to save him but he didn't.
Again, you are making a false claim that Jesus Christ has raised a higher law commanding Christians to sell all they had, give to the poor and follow Him(spiritually).

Like I said before, with the 1st Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, the keeping of the Law could no longer save the rich young Jewish ruler from hell, ie only faith in Jesus Christ could save him from hell; and for him to be saved from hell at that special time, required him to abandon all and follow Jesus Christ(physically).

Jesus Christ did not raise the bar higher or a higher law when He called Andrew, Simon Peter, James and John to follow Him. .......

MATT.4: Four Fishermen Called as Disciples

18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 Then He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” 20 They immediately left their nets and followed Him.

21 Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.


QUOTE
Man until today think they can keep the Laws of God..it has been 2000 years and we are still stubborn.
FYI, according to the Word of God or Scripture, even Gentiles could keep the Law by their conscience, albeit unknowingly, and Jews and Jewish Christians could definitely keep the Law, .......

ROMANS.2: = 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

ACTS.21: = 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

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QUOTE
It's the same thing. Noticed that Christ only give the Law to people who hanker after the Law, people like the pharisee, the young rich ruler but to the people like the prostitudes the tax collector..like Zaccheus, Christ only gives Grace.

You'll never see Christ giving the law to the blind, the lame or the prostitute..ie "if you want me to heal you, repent first, make restitution then only I will heal you" Christ never does. He give his GRACE 1st always then only tells us to go sin no more.

JOHN.14: = Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


QUOTE
The church has it backward, they'll tell you to repent first then only you get grace. If only we can see this truth.

I think bottomline is, you have problem understanding what I share on leaving our focus from the Law to focusing on Christ. It's not about you know better or I know better.

Good day to you too.

MATT.4:17 = 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Seems you are confusing sins/law-breaking wrt the unconverted/unbelievers and Christian believers.

Like I said before, even a repentant murderer and/or adulterer can be saved from hell by faith in Jesus Christ = as a new repentant and grateful Christian believer he/she should go and murder or adultery no more. But he/she(= the ex-murderer and/or ex-adulterer) will not be saved from hell if he/she unrepentantly breaks the Law by going and murder or adultery some more and more. This applies similarly to other Christian believers, eg those who unrepentantly commit sexual immorality. God/Jesus-Christ will not let His Word go forth in vain and will make certain of it, as per REV.22:12-17, 1COR.6:9-11, GAL.5:19-21, HEB.10:26-31 & 6:1-8.

Good day.
.

SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 3 2020, 02:21 PM

Rule of Law
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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Apr 3 2020 @ 12:57 PM)
JOHN.14: = Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 3 2020, 01:27 PM)
The New Covenant is not about keeping the Law but Keeping your Faith in Christ as the way to Salvation.
Understand that under the new Covenant, whenever it is mentioned..keep my commands,

It's usually refering to the commandment of believe in Christ, to love one another
John 15:12 (NIV) -  My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
1 John 3:23 (NIV) - And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.

Of course the virtue of love binds all the OT laws together but as I've said the focus now is on Christ, no more the Law...we need to keep our eyes on Jesus. Study how Jesus treats sinners. He is very kind to them.
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1JOHN.3: (NKJV) = 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
You missed out the redded part "as He gave us commandment" which referred to His Law that He had given. .......

MATT.5: = Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

MATT.22:37-40 = 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


"Love one another" for Christians is the same as "Love your neighbor as yourself" for Jews. Why did Jesus Christ/God make the difference.? = because the Jews had been commanded by God in the OT to not live next to Gentiles as their neighbors, except for refugees/strangers; whereas God foreknew that Gentile Christians would be living next to unbelievers as their neighbors who could be their very enemies. Who are your neighbors presently, all Christians, any unbeliever-enemy.? There are certain neighbors from hell.

So, JOHN.14:15 's commandments referred to the Law, as He gave us commandment because Jesus Christ had stated at MATT.5:17 that He did not come to destroy the Law = no new laws and no higher laws from Him in the NT, except the commandment to believe in Him for salvation from hell(= no longer believe in the keeping of the Law for salvation) and for Christian believers to love one another(= no longer specifically to love their neighbours)

For false Hypergrace and Antinominian believers, isn't it ironic that Scripture gave the commandment/law to Christians to believe on the name of Jesus Christ and to love one another, as per 1JOHN.3:23, ie a commandment/law to have faith.? Wonder why.? Because some may lose faith by rejecting some of His laws/commandments.?

Good day.
.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 3 2020, 03:00 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 3 2020, 04:11 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Apr 3 2020, 02:21 PM)
.
1JOHN.3: (NKJV) =  22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
You missed out the redded part "as He gave us commandment" which referred to His Law that He had given. .......

MATT.5: = Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

MATT.22:37-40 = 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” 


"Love one another" for Christians is the same as "Love your neighbor as yourself" for Jews. Why did Jesus Christ/God make the difference.? = because the Jews had been commanded by God in the OT to not live next to Gentiles as their neighbors, except for refugees/strangers; whereas God foreknew that Gentile Christians would be living next to unbelievers as their neighbors who could be their very enemies. Who are your neighbors presently, all Christians, any unbeliever-enemy.? There are certain neighbors from hell.

So, JOHN.14:15 's commandments referred to the Law, as He gave us commandment because Jesus Christ had stated at MATT.5:17 that He did not come to destroy the Law = no new laws and no higher laws from Him in the NT, except the commandment to believe in Him for salvation from hell(= no longer believe in the keeping of the Law for salvation) and for Christian believers to love one another(= no longer specifically to love their neighbours)

For false Hypergrace and Antinominian believers, isn't it ironic that Scripture gave the commandment/law to Christians to believe on the name of Jesus Christ and to love one another, as per 1JOHN.3:23, ie a commandment/law to have faith.? Wonder why.? Because some may lose faith by rejecting some of His laws/commandments.?

Good day.
.
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 3 2020, 03:04 PM)
1 John 3:23 , the last phrase was refering to what Jesus said: Love one another in the New Testament.

John 13:34 (NIV) - A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

It's a reminder, as He has commanded..as Christ commanded. That's the hint.

=================================================================================

If you read Matthew 5:18 Carefully, it says there.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled What this means is that once it is fufilled and Christ did finally fufilled it, the custody it has on the believer is no more.

Romans 10:4 (KJV) - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

What this means is that when we receive Christ, We also receive what Christ has done. Now is the matter of Faith, no more of the law
==================================================================================

Note that MATT.22:37-40 was thrown to the Pharisees. As Ive said before and you can study this: whenever someone come to Jesus trying to be justified by the Law, Jesus will give the Law. The purpose of it, Ive also explained. It's to bring Man to the end of themselves.

The Law cannot impart life , neither righteousness.

Galatians 2:21 (NIV) - I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing."

Galatians 3:21 (NIV) - Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

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MATT.7:21-23 = I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

REV.22: = Jesus Testifies to the Churches

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.


Like I already told you, JOHN.14:15 's commandments referred to the Law, as He gave us commandment because Jesus Christ had stated at MATT.5:17 that He did not come to destroy the Law = no new laws and no higher laws from Him in the NT, except the commandment to believe in Him for salvation from hell(= no longer believe in the keeping of the Law for salvation) and for Christian believers to love one another(= no longer specifically to love their neighbours).

Of course Jesus Christ often throw the Law at the Pharisees because they still believed they were going to be saved from hell by keeping the Law, as per the Old Covenant of the Law, hence one of the reasons they rejected Him as the Messiah/Christ. Jesus came with a New Covenant of faith in Him for salvation from hell.
....... Of course for those who already believed in Him for salvation from hell, eg the apostles, He had no need to throw the Law at them.
....... This was par for the course or self-explanatory. Again I say to you, Jesus Christ did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it by dwelling in believers through His Spirit, implanting His laws in their hearts and minds and thus empowering them to keep the Law from within.

Seems you have a problem listening to the Scriptures I quoted and are stuck at the point of conversion of salvation from hell by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by the keeping of the Law(= the elementary principles of Christ), and has not progressed much further from that point. The peril of not progressing from the point of conversion by faith in Jesus Christ wrt the keeping of the Law by the power of the Holy Spirit of God to avoid the earthly curses of God apply considerably to Gentile Christians who were mostly lawless Gentiles before their conversion, especially if they ignorantly continue to break the Law unrepentantly by willfully or intentionally committing sexual immorality like adultery, fornication and homosexuality. .......

HEB.6: = The Peril of Not Progressing

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


Good day.
.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 3 2020, 04:41 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 3 2020, 05:44 PM

Rule of Law
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ 3 Apr 2020, 03:04 PM)
If you read Matthew 5:18 Carefully, it says there.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled What this means is that once it is fufilled and Christ did finally fufilled it, the custody it has on the believer is no more.

If it were so, why do we still have latter Scripture against the unrepentant breaking of the Law by willfully or intentionally committing sins repeatedly at MATT.7:21-23, 1COR.6:9-11, GAL.5:19-21, REV.22:12-17, HEB.10:26-31, 1COR.5:1-13 & 11:30, 1JOHN.3:8 & 5:16-17, etc - which warned Christians about being cursed by God with earthly calamities and even the loss of their inheritance in the kingdom of God for such willful sins/law-breaking.?

Seems you are tying nearly every NT Scripture with your obsession about being saved from hell by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by the keeping of the Law - to the extent of rejecting the Law fully or partially from your life.
_______ _______

MATT.5:17-20 (NKJV) = Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


To enter the kingdom of heaven, the Christians' righteousness must exceed that of the Jewish scribes and Pharisees(= experts/scholars in Moses Law). As per 1JOHN.1:9 & 5:17 and ROMANS.1:29 & 6:13, unrighteousness = sin or law-breaking; so righteousness = the keeping of the Law or doing good-deeds.
....... How did Jesus Christ fulfilled this for Christian believers, ie for their righteousness to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees.? = by dwelling in them through His Spirit, implanting His laws in their hearts and minds and thus empowering them to easily keep the Law from within. In comparison, the Jewish scribes and Pharisees had to labor under their own human strength and weak willpower against the fiery darts of the wicked one to keep the Law from without - compelled by law-enforcers to do so.
....... Before the 1st Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, not many Jews successfully kept the Law and got saved from hell, eg beggar Lazarus, Moses, Elijah and other prophets.

If Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law by just dying on the Cross and saving believers from hell by faith in Him - and then fullstop, He would not need to say verses 19 & 20, especially about the Christians' righteousness having to exceed that of the Jewish scribes and Pharisees, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Remember, the perils of not progressing from the elementary principles of Christ (= about being saved from hell by faith in Him) because He is the living God and is the same yesterday, today and forever.

It is likely an error for a Christian to say that nobody can actually keep the Law = Christian bodies are breaking the Law = this is "normal". The Christian who said this may falsely believe that the "normal" unrepentant willful or intentional breaking of the Law would never jeopardize his/her salvation from hell by faith in Jesus Christ. Problem is, faith can be lost through unrepentant willful sins/law-breaking and the Lord/God Jesus Christ can spit him/her out for his/her unrepentant willful sins.

Good day.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 3 2020, 06:37 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 3 2020, 08:54 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 3 2020, 01:27 PM)
The New Covenant is not about keeping the Law but Keeping your Faith in Christ as the way to Salvation.
Understand that under the new Covenant, whenever it is mentioned..keep my commands,

It's usually refering to the commandment of believe in Christ, to love one another
John 15:12 (NIV) -  My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
1 John 3:23 (NIV) - And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.
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1JOHN.3: (NKJV) = The Command to Love

3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Sin and the Child of God

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
...
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18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.


To get the proper context of verse 23, we need to refer back to verse 3-9 and verse 22. Verse 3-9 say that those who truly believe in Him purify themselves and do not commit sins or lawlessness or law-breaking or commandment-breaking. Here it refers to the not breaking of the Law. Verse 22 says that believers keep His commandments = plural = refers to keeping the Law.
....... So, His commandment at verse 23 cannot mean that believers should just believe in Jesus Christ and love one another and omitting the rest of the Law or commandments.
....... Love one another for Christians is the same as love your neighbor as yourself for the Jews - Jewish Christians like Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, could very well relate the two commandments as the same.

MATT.22:37-40 - similarly if Christians think they can just rely on the 2 great commandments of God to guide their Spirit-filled lives on earth, they will be sorely mistaken = not in accordance with the Scripture at ACTS.21:20-25. Even though the other 611 commandments are not as great, they are still important, eg EXO.20:1-17, DEUT.18:9-14, LEV.10:9, etc.
....... I guess for Gentile Christians, about 100 commandments out of 613 are non-burdensome which should be kept by them, in order for them to do well on earth and not risk losing their salvation by losing faith in God/Jesus-Christ through intentionally or willfully sinning/law-breaking in ignorance, false teachings, etc.

Good day.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 3 2020, 09:05 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 3 2020, 11:52 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 3 2020, 10:25 PM)
As I've told you before, what our Lord Christ said n Matthew 5:27-30 is not destroying anything. Christ who gave the law raise the bar higher. Destroying the Law would mean making the Law null before it's accomplished. But as it was at that time Christ came to fufilled it, Hence the law was waiting. Once Christ has fufilled it, When we accept Christ, We also receive What He has achieved.

Romans 10:4 (KJV) - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


ROMANS.5: (NKJV) = Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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For salvation from hell, we need the righteousness and righteous act of Jesus Christ on the Cross to atone for our unintentionally inherited Adam's Original Sin. Our own righteousness and righteous acts of the Law, eg did not commit murder, adultery, stealing, blasphemy, etc, could never save us from hell because we have an evil or devilish heart that occasionally sin-in-thoughts involuntarily or unintentionally, eg immoral sexual lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, etc, in our hearts = we do not qualify for the kingdom of heaven on our own = we are bound for hell if without the righteousness and righteous act of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

But salvation from hell at the point of conversion by faith is not the 'be all and end all'. Once born-again of the Holy Spirit of God, we need to cooperate with God's Spirit to allow Him to implant His laws in our hearts and minds, especially for most new Gentile Christians who were lawless Gentiles previously. For Jewish Christians like the apostles, God's Spirit had no problem implanting His laws in their hearts and minds because most of them were law-abiding Jews previously. In this way, God's Holy Spirit who indwell us could empower us to keep the Law or do righteous acts(= our righteousness) easily = through a change of our hearts by the Spirit.
....... This is vital for believers because sinning/breaking the Law willfully or intentionally(= their unrighteousness) for whatever reasons, eg ignorance, belief in false teachings, etc, will bring on the earthly curses of God or His agents upon them (1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-17, HEB.10:26-31) since such intentional sins /law-breaking cannot be forgiven or atoned, as per LEVITICUS - murderers may be executed, rapists and robbers will be jailed, etc. If while suffering for their sins/unrighteousness, they somehow lose faith in God/Jesus-Christ = will lose salvation, eg JOB.2:9, 1TIM.4:1.

Good day.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 12:15 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 3 2020, 10:49 PM)

John 15:3 (NIV) - You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.


JOHN.6: (NKJV) = 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Seems, the Holy Spirit of God was already working upon the apostles to make them clean or keep the Law. Conversely, dirty mean break the Law or sin willfully or intentionally or unrighteousness or lawlessness.
....... JOHN.6:63 & 15:3 might have been different from the indwelling Holy Spirit of God for born-again believers from the Pentecost of ACTS.2 onward.

Good day.
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 01:02 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 4 2020, 12:30 AM)
If you say that at the point of conversion is not the be all and end all, then you also just agreed the works of the Law is required for Salvation (along the way), ie in other words... That what Jesus Christ did at the cross was insufficient. (not enough)

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HEB.5: (NKJV) = Spiritual Immaturity

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
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1PETER.2: = Our Inheritance Through Christ’s Blood

2 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
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1COR.3: = Sectarianism Is Carnal

3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
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HEB.6: = The Peril of Not Progressing

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


The Word of God or Bible states that at the point of conversion by faith in Jesus Christ, some newly born-again believers are carnal babes-in-Christ (= still walking more in the flesh than in the Spirit) who need to grow spiritually by feeding on the Law/Word of God of righteousness and there is the peril of them not progressing or growing spiritually into an adult-in-Christ who feeds on solid food of the Word of God = the bread of life.

So, salvation from hell at the point of conversion by faith in Jesus Christ is not the 'be all and end all' for some folks, especially new Gentile Christians who were mostly lawless or carnal Gentiles previously.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 4 2020, 01:16 AM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 10:33 AM

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QUOTE(gashout @ Apr 3 2020, 03:23 PM)
Amen to that. and by His Grace we are saved.

But I also believe faith is followed with proper behaviors.

Hence, it's VERY NOT easy to be a Christian - so many obedient list to do.

And obedience also takes precedence in Christianity life. I guess obedience is something we can link with the law part?

God bless.
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It's not hard if new Gentile Christians who were mostly lawless and carnal Gentiles previously, know where to start growing spiritually and gradually from babes-in-Christ to adults-in-Christ by feeding on the Law/Word of God.

They need to start by feeding on the Word of God at ACTS.15:19-29 & 21:20-25 and ROMANS.14:1-5, ie begin their born-again of the Holy Spirit life by keeping 4 easy and non-burdensome laws of God = avoid eating blood, idol-sacrificed foods, strangled animal sacrifice and sexual immorality = so as to do well on earth(not for salvation from hell). To do even better on earth = be blessed by God with earthly rewards and goodness, they should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome laws of God, eg the Ten Commandments at EXO.20, DEUT.18:9-14, LEV.10:9, etc.
....... Otherwise they may kena the opposite - do bad or worse on earth - since willful or intentional sins/law-breaking for whatever reasons, eg ignorance, laziness, belief in false teachings, easy believism/OSAS, etc, cannot be forgiven as per the book of LEVITICUS = such unrepentant sinners/law-breakers will kena the earthly curses of God or His agents, eg murderers may be executed, robbers and rapists will be jailed, incestors will be destroyed by Satan, etc - 1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-17, ROMANS.2:5-13.

There are exceptions to every rule/law. Some new Gentile Christians might have done some serious physical or spiritual damage to themselves previously when they were lawless or carnal Gentiles, eg alcoholics, chain-smokers, drug-addicts, sleeping pills-addict, (= broke God's Law at LEV.10:9) dabblers in the occult(= broke God's Law at DEUT.18:9-14), etc.
....... Eg alcoholics have brain damage like Type-2 diabetics have pancreas damage. Alcoholics are addicted to alcohol to survive like diabetics are addicted to insulin to survive. So, it is OK for alcoholic new Gentile Christian to remain alcoholic because it would be too burdensome for them to keep LEV.10:9 and stop taking alcohol = terrible withdrawal symptoms called Delirium Tremens. Such alcoholic Gentile Christian may not live well and long on earth but they will still be saved from hell by their faith in Jesus Christ. IOW, in this case, eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ trumps a well and long life on earth by keeping God's Law. Of course, miraculous healing of alcoholic new Gentile Christians can also happen, which would be even better for them.

Certain religions prohibit the drinking of alcohol, coffee or tea. If followed from young, this law/prohibition is good.

Jesus Christ said His yoke is easy and His burden light. Problem is, a few self-righteous Christians blindly want to put heavy yokes and burdens on new Gentile Christians, eg the Judaizers of GAL.2:9-17 led by James the Just, the bishop of Jerusalem, who wanted new Gentile Christians converted by apostle Paul, to keep all of Moses Law or God's Law, ie must be circumcised, eat kosher foods, keep Sabbath on Saturday, not keep company with unbelievers, tithe 10%, etc.

Good day.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 4 2020, 11:25 AM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 10:53 AM

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QUOTE(popcorneater @ Apr 4 2020, 09:44 AM)
UW is right that the work of Christ is finished
Lurking is also right that we continue to grow after coming to know Christ.
Both are just two sides of the same coin.
A seed sown cannot remain a seed forever.
it has to grow and bear other seed, which is the whole point of farming.

did i miss something earlier?
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In my case, I am trying to warn Christians about believing in certain false teachings. .......

https://www.compellingtruth.org/hyper-grace.html
''''''' What is hyper-grace?
Hyper-grace teaches an outsized theology of God's grace that overshadows our need for confession of sin and repentance. Teachers of hyper-grace fail to note God's other attributes of holiness and His call for followers to be righteous. They teach that there is no need to deal with our sin since God has forgiven all our past, present, and future sin. '''''''


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism
''''''' In Christianity, an antinomian is one who takes the principle of salvation by faith and divine grace to the point of asserting that the saved are not bound to follow the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments. The distinction between antinomian and other Christian views on moral law is that antinomians believe that obedience to the law is motivated by an internal principle flowing from belief rather than from any external compulsion.

Examples of antinomians being confronted by the religious establishment include Martin Luther's critique of antinomianism and the Antinomian Controversy of the seventeenth-century Massachusetts Bay Colony. In the Lutheran Churches and Methodist Churches, antinomianism is considered a heresy. '''''''


Good day.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Apr 4 2020 @ 01:02 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 4 2020, 10:43 AM)
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In that case, please explain the following Scripture by apostle Paul and Jesus Christ. .......

1COR.3: (NKJV) = 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
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1COR.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
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GAL.5: = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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MATT.5: = 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

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MATT.7:21-23 = I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

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REV.22: = Jesus Testifies to the Churches

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
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REV.14:12 = 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Afaik, any Christian who unrepentantly commit the above willful or intentional sins/law-breaking will not inherit the kingdom of God or has the right to the tree of life. If there is no possibility of such Christians, Paul and Jesus Christ must have been foolish to put up such Scripture above.

Good day.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 11:38 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 4 2020, 11:24 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Another good example is in one of the verse above
But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
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Yes, that verse refers to when unbelievers were converted to Christianity, ie even the most dastard sinner/law-breaker could be saved from hell by faith in Jesus Christ.

Most of the Scripture I quoted above was talking about already-converted but still-dastard and unrepentant Christian sinners/law-breakers who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Good day.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 01:08 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 4 2020, 10:43 AM)
Like I said, I perfectly understand what you're saying here, it is nothing new to me. But the foundation of what we tell new converts MUST be right.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Apr 4 2020 @ 10:53 AM)
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In my case, I am trying to warn Christians about believing in certain false teachings. .......
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 4 2020, 11:40 AM)
If you want to include old converts then the same priciple holds true, it depends on what you feed. If you don't feed them what Christ have done...they (old convert) will also end up trying to keep the Law to be saved or righteous, so much so...more than to believe in Christ finished work.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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By still-dwelling on the elementary principles of Christ = salvation by faith and not by the works of the Law = and not progressing, such obsessive Christians are like still being stuck on the Cross/Crucifix of Jesus Christ, happily drenched in His blood, and refuse to come down from the Cross, even after He has come down from the Cross, been resurrected after 3 days, appeared to His apostles for 40 days and risen back to heaven to dwell in His people by the power of the Holy Spirit of God.
....... Not only that, some such Christians sometimes even try to bring Jesus Christ down to the Cross to stay with them on their Cross spiritually, ie when they intentionally or willfully commit sins/law-breaking against others, eg maybe they believe in the false Hypergrace teaching.

Fyi, the risen Jesus Christ is no more on the Cross but is now in the believers' heart Spirit'ually. He was sacrificed on the Cross for the unintentional sins of the world once and for all in 33 AD, including for their inherited Adam's Original Sin = thus saving them from hell. He was not sacrificed for intentional or willful sins/law-breaking, which sins cannot be forgiven or atoned, as per the book of LEVITICUS = the earthly curses of God or His agents follows, eg incestors will be destroyed by Satan, murderers may be executed, robbers will be jailed, etc.

Remember, the Lord/God Jesus Christ will be Coming back to earth "soon" in Person. Likely, He won't be coming back "wearing" the Cross on His back = your expectation.?

Why still-dwell on the elementary principles of Christ when Christianity has more latest and advanced threats from the devil. .......
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MATT.24: (NKJV) = The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

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1TIM.4: (NKJV) = The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

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2THESS.2: = The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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2TIM.3: = Perilous Times and Perilous Men

3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.


Good day.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 03:47 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 4 2020, 01:35 PM)
Feed the young believer or even the old believer of what Christ have done for them, they will progress. Keep the believer's eye on what Jesus have done for them, they will progress.

You want to know how Jesus diagnose A believer, whether He/She will Love God? Then behold: Consider this truth. A Believer (young or old) who understands that He/She is forgiven much will love the Lord much.

Luke 7:47-48 - Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.” Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”


GRACE is the higher Truth, it sets people free. Law is very basic..very elementary, it cannot save, it cannot give life..only death.
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The verse referred to the 1st Coming of Jesus Christ to earth in 30 AD when He, as God-in-the-flesh, had the discretionary power or authority to even forgive repentant sinners who had committed intentional or willful sins/law-breaking by performing miraculous healings, exorcisms, raising the dead, etc for them. This is similar to the Agong having the power to pardon repentant/reformed prisoners, eg commute the death sentence. But at LUKE.23:43, the Jewish robber who was crucified next to Jesus, still had to die young for his intentional sin of robbery, even though he was eventually saved from hell by faith in Jesus Christ.
....... Certainly, those more dastardly sinners who repented would be more grateful and loving to the Person, Jesus Christ, for forgiving their intentional sins and releasing them from their consequential sufferings. But this is not the norm today.

Today, with Jesus Christ not physically present on earth, there is likely no more such miraculous forgiveness of intentional sins happening, ie no more miraculous healings, exorcisms, raising of the dead, water turn to wine, etc. IOW, God just let His Law run its natural course of 'we reap what we sow' or 'karma is a bitch' or padan muka.

So, let's not take rare examples as the norm, eg foolish folks misbelieve they can go and commit the most dastardly intentional sins/law-breaking so that they can love Him more for forgiving their sins and releasing them from their sufferings through miraculous healings, exorcisms, etc - but instead they die soon of terminal cancer for their dastard sins and may have lost faith = lost salvation.

Best for us to stick to normal everyday applicable Scripture about loving God. .......

JOHN.14: (NKJV) = 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...

21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
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1JOHN.2: = The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
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1JOHN.4: & 5: = Obedience by Faith

4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


Good day.

This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 4 2020, 03:50 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 05:10 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Apr 4 2020 @ 03:47 PM)
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The verse referred to the 1st Coming of Jesus Christ to earth in 30 AD when He, as God-in-the-flesh, had the discretionary power or authority to even forgive repentant sinners who had committed intentional or willful sins/law-breaking by performing miraculous healings, exorcisms, raising the dead, etc for them. This is similar to the Agong having the power to pardon repentant/reformed prisoners, eg commute the death sentence. But at LUKE.23:43, the Jewish robber who was crucified next to Jesus, still had to die young for his intentional sin of robbery, even though he was eventually saved from hell by faith in Jesus Christ.
....... Certainly, those more dastardly sinners who repented would be more grateful and loving to the Person, Jesus Christ, for forgiving their intentional sins and releasing them from their consequential sufferings. But this is not the norm today.
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 4 2020, 04:32 PM)
Friend I think you are arguing without understanding. I can tell you have very little faith in Christ power. You have more confidence in the deeds of Man over God when it comes to Salvation by the way you answer above. What has happen to you? You experience very little with the Lord? You only know in concept and theology but lacks the divine touch from the Lord?

Sorry but you are wrong!

You are implying Jesus during his earthly ministry is different from the Jesus who is in Heaven? He's very forgiving while on his earthly ministry but not so forgiving in heaven? You are implying God no longer dispenses his Grace today? No more miracles?

That is not true.
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Well, we have yet to hear of sick and/or dying Wuhan-virus/Covid-19 patients being healed by Jesus Christ through Christian pastors or priests. So far, many thousands have died in USA and Italy/Spain where many pastors and priests are based. In Malaysia, 53 have died.

Even if there are such miraculous healings, we should be wary based on 2THESS.2:1-9

We need to know the difference between Jesus Christ as God-in-the-flesh on the mission and as the Lamb of God on the Cross wrt forgiveness of unintentional sins vs intentional sins and the removal of their consequences/curses.

Good day.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 4 2020, 08:01 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Apr 4 2020 @ 05:10 PM)
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Well, we have yet to hear of sick and/or dying Wuhan-virus/Covid-19 patients being healed by Jesus Christ through Christian pastors or priests. So far, many thousands have died in USA and Italy/Spain where many pastors and priests are based. In Malaysia, 53 have died.

Even if there are such miraculous healings, we should be wary based on 2THESS.2:1-9

We need to know the difference between Jesus Christ as God-in-the-flesh on the mission and as the Lamb of God on the Cross wrt forgiveness of unintentional sins vs intentional sins and the removal of their consequences/curses.

Good day.
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 4 2020, 05:26 PM)
Can I share something with you?

As Christian, we should know, physical death is certain but immediately after that, you are more alive than anybody in Heaven compared to those on Earth.

If it's time, it's time, does not matter if due to corona virus or by whatever means.

But that does not mean, we go look for death, No. We need to watch our tongue what we say because the power of LIFE n DEATH is in the tongue (proverbs 18:21).

What's important during this downtime, we all get CLOSE to God.

And that involves spending quiet time with the Lord privately.

I can assure you, it is VERY VERY rewarding. VERY VERY. There will be divine experience affecting this life.
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https://www.newsweek.com/virginia-pastor-di...andemic-1494702 - Virginia Pastor Dies From Coronavirus After Previously Saying 'Media Is Pumping Out Fear' About Pandemic - By Ewan Palmer On 3/27/20

What happened to him.?
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Good day.
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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 5 2020, 12:36 PM

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QUOTE(pehkay @ Apr 5 2020, 09:17 AM)
That ... is not an easy topic to describe ... just like it is hard to describe what human life is. Also, I am still failing and lacking in this matter of living Christ and of being led by the Spirit in our daily life.

The matter of the leading in Romans 8 is so crucial because it help to show the composition of the Spirit’s residing (divine person), God’s life giving (divine life and its divine laws), and our putting to death. As long as you experience these three things, you are being led by the Spirit of God.
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GAL.5: (NKJV) = Walking in the Spirit

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


Works of the flesh = intentional or willful sins or law-breaking or lawlessness or unrighteousness or evil-deeds, including unintentional or involuntary sins-in-the-hearts or sins-in-thoughts like immoral envy, jealousies, selfish ambitions, hatred, anger, sexual lust, etc.

Fruit of the Spirit = a change of the believers' hearts by the Holy Spirit of God towards love, joy, peace, etc, who go on to keep or fulfil the Law of God = no longer under the Law or to keep the Law through self-efforts or own strength.

As per MATT.7:15-23, the only way to judge false prophets/pastors/teachers is by their fruitlessness(= unchanged sinful or evil hearts) and lawlessness of the flesh.
....... OTOH, babes-in-Christ or new believers may still be walking in the flesh and not yet walking fully in the Spirit = they need some time to grow Spirit'ually by feeding on the Law/Word of God = the bread of life = eat His flesh/body, especially new Gentile Christians; .... but true prophets/pastors/teachers are not supposed to still be walking in the flesh since they should already be adults-in-Christ walking fully in the Spirit.

Good day.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 5 2020, 02:13 PM
SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 5 2020, 12:41 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Apr 5 2020, 11:24 AM)
Justification by Faith Establishes the Law

Resource by John Piper
Scripture: Romans 3:27–31   
Topic: Justification
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SUSlurkingaround
post Apr 5 2020, 01:01 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 5 2020, 10:51 AM)
I have sworn not to be angry with you, learn to love

Isaiah 54:9-10 (NIV)

9 “To me this is like the days of Noah,
when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth.
So now I have sworn not to be angry with you,
never to rebuke you again.

10 Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.



Good Day fellow believers,

Today's devotion.

Don't have this idea, God is out to get you, always angry at you. Be change in your mind (repent) that God LOVES you. That will set you free from the shackle of sin.

When a Christian have this idea, God is always angry at Him/Her, He/She in turn will get angry easily at other people, esp other Christians because of conscious condemnation.

When a believer is free from condemnation, He/She will be at peace and thus also be at peace with one another. If couple with the readiness to love others, the person will learn to Love

When a person is always angry at other, always mocking at others, always trying to put down others....This person does not have the revelation God loves him, There is this Angry God theology embedded, corrupted by Satan to think that is the default of who God is by large. If only one knows How Extremely patience God is..How Long Suffering God is.

Friends...

Meditate on the last phrase

The Lord who has compassion on you, say it out with me, verbalize it, don't just read it in your mind. Verbalize it and believe the Lord has compassion on you.

God Bless


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ACTS.5: (NKJV) = Lying to the Holy Spirit

5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.

7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”

She said, “Yes, for so much.”

9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.


This happened just after the miraculous events effected by the Holy Spirit of God at ACTS.2 - 3. I think God must have been very angry at Ananias and Sapphira for lying to Him and might have wanted to send a fearful warning message to the powerful and miracles-abounding early Church. "With great position comes great responsibility and accountibility".

Good day.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 5 2020, 01:02 PM

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