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 [DIY] S&P 500 Index w/ 0.07% Annual Fee, Buy the best companies in the world

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TSalexkos
post Nov 5 2019, 09:35 PM

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QUOTE(roarus @ Nov 5 2019, 09:30 PM)
For myself I'll just keep it simple - rebase everything back to MYR (retirement currency) and rebalance twice a year
I'd say it's negligible for popular index funds. I've never had problem getting orders filled by bidding +1 cent for IWDA (typically has 3 cents wide spread)
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i more lazy, rebalance on birthday je...haha

if scare cant fill, just hoot 1 dollar higher...sure kena one
Yggdrasil
post Nov 5 2019, 10:02 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 5 2019, 09:28 PM)
Can help me understand this expense/spread thingy...

I know lower expense is good... lower bid/ask spread is good...

For an individual say diy buying one-time market (ask price) and selling market (bid price) 5-10 yrs later... why would spread become so important? Also at peak hours spread should be quite small
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My calculation was based on the closing price everyday. Closing price is the last transaction that took place that day. It can be at the bid or ask price. So it's fair.
I was using all of the samples. Imagine yourself buying the index everyday at the closing price with $10 for 9 years.
Then, what is your average return p.a.? Basically that's what I did for an S&P 500 tracked in US vs the one listed in London.

My findings show that US domiciled S&P 500 wins.

Meaning the benefit of lower expense ratio and lower tracking error exceeds the benefit of lower WHT.

However, I can still try to perform hypothesis testing to see whether the difference is significant or purely by chance.

EDIT: I did the hypothesis testing and if my calculation is correct, there is significant evidence at 99% confidence interval that the returns are not the same and the US domiciled S&P 500 gives higher returns

For those who want to calculate themselves, the n for both samples is 1895.

This post has been edited by Yggdrasil: Nov 5 2019, 11:13 PM
dwRK
post Nov 5 2019, 10:02 PM

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for some ppl who also trade in and out of etfs...in addition to "timing" entry/exit based on TA say on sp500 ...they also looked at the premium / discount of the etf prices over the underlying to try get the best value...

Just saying... biggrin.gif
dwRK
post Nov 5 2019, 10:10 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 5 2019, 10:02 PM)
My calculation was based on the closing price everyday. Closing price is the last transaction that took place that day. It can be at the bid or ask price. So it's fair.
I was using all of the samples. Imagine yourself buying the index everyday at the closing price with $10 for 9 years.
Then, what is your average return p.a.? Basically that's what I did for an S&P 500 tracked in US vs the one listed in London.

My findings show that US domiciled S&P 500 wins.

Meaning the benefit of lower expense ratio and lower tracking error exceeds the benefit of lower WHT.

However, I can still try to perform hypothesis testing to see whether the difference is significant or purely by chance.
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Np mate... let me digest your other thread and sleep this over...

Some market / products are less efficient... so there's that...

I think of most interest would be sxr8 vs the best in us

This post has been edited by dwRK: Nov 5 2019, 10:12 PM
moosset
post Nov 5 2019, 10:17 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 5 2019, 08:39 PM)
1) Buying S&P 500 in Euro vs USD - aka buying the same asset using 2 different currencies.[/size]

ETF currency does not matter because it is the NAV of the asset which matters.
However, it does matter if the ETF managers hold cash. Almost all hold a small % of cash depending on the currency.

Furthermore, you should be more concerned about the exchange rate when you decide to liquidate, not when you buy.
As you average down, the currency fluctuations will cause you to buy more units when it depreciates and buy less when it appreciates.
In the long run, you will return to the 'average' exchange rate and it only matters when you sell.

When you sell, the exchange will decide whether you earn more or less. This is very important because it will decide whether your compounded return is higher or lower.
Because of exchange rate, you may make a gain 3% gain in USD terms but a 2% loss in MYR terms.

E.g. 1 USD : 4 MYR, you convert RM1000 into $250 to invest. (Just once, no dollar cost average)
1 year later, your $250 grew by 6% p.a. for 2 years to $280.90 [250 x 1.06^2]

You decide to liquidate, MYR appreciated against USD. 1 USD : 3.5 MYR.
You get back RM983.15 [$280.90 x 3.5]. You made a loss.

Why loss? You put in RM1000 and get back RM983.15.
Your return p.a. is -0.84% [(983.15/1000)^(1/2)-1].

Usually by a few % so it's best to liquidate when MYR is weak not when it is strong. Technically, you should buy more S&P 500 when MYR is strong not weak.  biggrin.gif

If on the other hand, MYR depreciates when you liquidate and convert back:

Say, 1 USD : 4.5 MYR. Your investment after 2 years is still $280.90 remember? But when you convert back, you get RM1264.05 [$280.90 x 4.5]
Your return p.a. is 12.4% [(1264.05/1000)^(1/2)-1].

See now currency is more important when you liquidate?
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for now, I'm thinking of liquidating in USD or JPY or EUR.
yeah, my question referred to the 1st scenario, different currency of the same asset class.

ok. So the base currency doesn't matter. Just the asset. thumbsup.gif

QUOTE(roarus @ Nov 5 2019, 08:44 PM)

You really shouldn't be. If you go to the airport and buy a box of chocolate and it costs GBP1 / USD1.3 / EUR1.15 it doesn't matter which currency you pay for it - in the end you end up with a box of chocolates, not GBP or USD or EUR.

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funny you gave this example. I am ashamed to say I am exactly that guy. sad.gif

when I'm offered to pay either GBP1 / USD1.3 / EUR1.15, I would look through the app and check. If the exchange rate is GBP 1 / USD 1.5 / EUR 1.10, I'd pay with USD. laugh.gif
moosset
post Nov 5 2019, 10:47 PM

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questions about WHT, I got confused.

A Malaysian citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, WHT is 15%.

What if,
a US citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
A Japanese citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
dwRK
post Nov 5 2019, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 5 2019, 10:47 PM)
questions about WHT, I got confused.

A Malaysian citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, WHT is 15%.

What if,
a US citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
A Japanese citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
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It's not citizenship but tax residency...and tax treaty or not
moosset
post Nov 5 2019, 11:05 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 5 2019, 11:01 PM)
It's not citizenship but tax residency...and tax treaty or not
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but we pay 15% because it's in Ireland, no?

if US residents bought irish domiciled ETF, the WHT should also be 15%, no?
Yggdrasil
post Nov 5 2019, 11:07 PM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 5 2019, 10:47 PM)
questions about WHT, I got confused.

A Malaysian citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, WHT is 15%.

What if,
a US citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
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Withholding Tax (WHT) is only applicable for US non-resident alien.
Withholding tax is cash which the resident company holds to pay to the government on your behalf.
If they fail to keep this cash before distributing profits to you, they will still be liable to pay to the government.

Hence, US citizen do not have to pay WHT but pay according to their usual tax rates. I believe they measure the % based on each person's income.
Just like Malaysia. When you file income tax, there is a section for dividends received. However, we do not pay dividend tax because currently, it's exempt.
In future, we may have to.

QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 5 2019, 10:47 PM)
A Japanese citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
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WHT 15%. If you look at my thread. The dividends are already 'priced in' into the share price. Hence, the ETF does not pay dividends out but the NAV increases, and thus the price of the ETF itself. But someone point out if I am wrong.
Yggdrasil
post Nov 5 2019, 11:42 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 5 2019, 09:04 PM)
Ya talking about hedging currency...futures/cfd/options are some methods

It's relevant when you invest substantial sum overseas... say usdmyr 4.2 drop to 3.1... its big % and big $

Should always keep an eye on it
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Actually you don't have to hedge if you decide to invest every month and dollar cost average.
Eventually, your point of entry will 'harmonise' meaning you will obtain a long term weighted average of the exchange rate in which you entered.
Meaning a weak ringgit will strengthen against USD in some years and weaken.

But if Malaysia get sanctioned by US, GG. Look at Iran's currency:

user posted image

What is more important is the exchange rate on the time you decide to liquidate.

Alternatively to maximise gains and get value for your money, you can be smart by:
1) Investing in Malaysian stock when MYR is weak and will recover.
2) Investing in US stock only when MYR is strong/strengthen against USD.
3) If you think MYR will continue depreciating forever probably to 1 USD = 5+ MYR, then straight invest in US stocks. It will maximise your gains even more.

This post has been edited by Yggdrasil: Nov 5 2019, 11:44 PM
dwRK
post Nov 5 2019, 11:48 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 5 2019, 11:07 PM)
Withholding Tax (WHT) is only applicable for US non-resident alien.
Withholding tax is cash which the resident company holds to pay to the government on your behalf.
If they fail to keep this cash before distributing profits to you, they will still be liable to pay to the government.

Hence, US citizen do not have to pay WHT but pay according to their usual tax rates. I believe they measure the % based on each person's income.
Just like Malaysia. When you file income tax, there is a section for dividends received. However, we do not pay dividend tax because currently, it's exempt.
In future, we may have to.
WHT 15%. If you look at my thread. The dividends are already 'priced in' into the share price. Hence, the ETF does not pay dividends out but the NAV increases, and thus the price of the ETF itself. But someone point out if I am wrong.
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WHT is charged by the host country to non tax residency ppl... so if you get German shares dividend in Germany you pay Germany's WHT rate... US ppl hold Malaysian shares get dividend in Bursa they pay Malaysia's WHT.
roarus
post Nov 5 2019, 11:54 PM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 5 2019, 10:47 PM)
questions about WHT, I got confused.

A Malaysian citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, WHT is 15%.

What if,
a US citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
A Japanese citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
*
QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 5 2019, 11:07 PM)
Withholding Tax (WHT) is only applicable for US non-resident alien.
Withholding tax is cash which the resident company holds to pay to the government on your behalf.
If they fail to keep this cash before distributing profits to you, they will still be liable to pay to the government.

Hence, US citizen do not have to pay WHT but pay according to their usual tax rates. I believe they measure the % based on each person's income.
Just like Malaysia. When you file income tax, there is a section for dividends received. However, we do not pay dividend tax because currently, it's exempt.
In future, we may have to.
WHT 15%. If you look at my thread. The dividends are already 'priced in' into the share price. Hence, the ETF does not pay dividends out but the NAV increases, and thus the price of the ETF itself. But someone point out if I am wrong.
*
For Malaysian tax resident, it's quite straight forward as we don't pay dividend and capital gain tax on securities.

For US citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, I'm pretty sure they'd get walloped by 15% and then again by IRS on capital and dividend. People do a tax reset by liquidating assets before they step foot in American soil when they qualify to become a tax resident there.

For Japanese citizen it depends whether their inland revenue taxes overseas dividend/capital gain. Japan likely has some tax treaty with the US, probably best to buy one from Tokyo Stock Exchange instead if there is.

This post has been edited by roarus: Nov 5 2019, 11:55 PM
Yggdrasil
post Nov 5 2019, 11:55 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 5 2019, 11:48 PM)
WHT is charged by the host country to non tax residency ppl... so if you get German shares dividend in Germany you pay Germany's WHT rate... US ppl hold Malaysian shares get dividend in Bursa they pay Malaysia's WHT.
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Yes. My statement is still correct because Japanese also follow the 15% if they buy the Irish domiciled ETF.

Edit: for clarity. The Irish domiciled ETF already pays the 15% dividend because it is applicable to them. Whether or not your own country has additional taxes is a different story.

This post has been edited by Yggdrasil: Nov 5 2019, 11:56 PM
roarus
post Nov 6 2019, 12:02 AM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 5 2019, 11:48 PM)
WHT is charged by the host country to non tax residency ppl... so if you get German shares dividend in Germany you pay Germany's WHT rate... US ppl hold Malaysian shares get dividend in Bursa they pay Malaysia's WHT.
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Isn't Malaysian securities dividend (other than REITs) taxed at corporate level (single tier dividend) instead?

e.g. Maybank gets taxed 24% by LHDN -> shareholder 0% by LHDN -> whichever tax bracket % you're in by IRS
Yggdrasil
post Nov 6 2019, 12:14 AM

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QUOTE(roarus @ Nov 6 2019, 12:02 AM)
Isn't Malaysian securities dividend (other than REITs) taxed at corporate level (single tier dividend) instead?

e.g. Maybank gets taxed 24% by LHDN -> shareholder 0% by LHDN -> whichever tax bracket % you're in by IRS
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Usually countries solve this WHT problem with something called Double Taxation Agreement (DTA).
Unfortunately, Malaysia does not have one with the US.

Here: http://lampiran1.hasil.gov.my/pdf/pdfam/006a.pdf
Says that non-resident individual is not liable to tax if receiving tax exempt dividends from Malaysia.

If this is not the case, I think it's possible to be taxed in both countries.
This is also why DTA is enacted. It is to reduce taxes from both sides of the country and encourage investment.
simplesmile
post Nov 6 2019, 12:49 AM

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Between choosing US domiciled or Irish domiciled, has anybody done research on estate taxes? I read somewhere US estate taxes pretty high. It would be sad if you buy and buy and buy and buy and hold US domiciled ETFs for long term. And one day accident happens, and estate tax comes in, US government takes 40% of your portfolio.
Yggdrasil
post Nov 6 2019, 01:04 AM

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QUOTE(simplesmile @ Nov 6 2019, 12:49 AM)
Between choosing US domiciled or Irish domiciled, has anybody done research on estate taxes? I read somewhere US estate taxes pretty high. It would be sad if you buy and buy and buy and buy and hold US domiciled ETFs for long term. And one day accident happens, and estate tax comes in, US government takes 40% of your portfolio.
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A person is considered to be domiciled in the US for estate and gift tax purposes if he or she lives in the US and has no present intention of leaving.

US domiciliaries are taxed on the value of their worldwide assets at death in the same manner as US citizens. Non-US domiciliaries are taxed only on the value of their US “situs” assets. US situs assets generally include real and tangible personal property located in the US, business assets located in the US, and stock of US corporations. The definition of US situs assets may be modified by an applicable estate and gift tax treaty.

An exemption of $60,000 is available against the value of assets includable in the US taxable estate of an individual who was not US domiciled.

NonUS domiciliaries are subject to US gift tax only on transfers of tangible personal property located in the US and real property located in the US.

Source: https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloi...dent-aliens.pdf

I guess make sure you withdraw before you die. biggrin.gif
simplesmile
post Nov 6 2019, 01:23 AM

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Yes, withdraw before you die.

Assets subject to US estate tax

Non-US domiciliaries are taxed only on the value of their US “situs” assets. US situs assets generally include real and tangible personal property located in the US, business assets located in the US, and stock of US corporations. The definition of US situs assets may be modified by an applicable estate and gift tax treaty.


An exemption of $60,000 is available against the value of assets includable in the US taxable estate of an individual who was not US domiciled. Maximum tax bracket, 40%
Yggdrasil
post Nov 6 2019, 01:34 AM

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QUOTE(simplesmile @ Nov 6 2019, 01:23 AM)
Yes, withdraw before you die.

Assets subject to US estate tax

Non-US domiciliaries are taxed only on the value of their US “situs” assets. US situs assets generally include real and tangible personal property located in the US, business assets located in the US, and stock of US corporations. The definition of US situs assets may be modified by an applicable estate and gift tax treaty.
An exemption of $60,000 is available against the value of assets includable in the US taxable estate of an individual who was not US domiciled. Maximum tax bracket, 40%
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Actually, will the US know whether you die or not?
I mean if you let your will executor or your spouse know you invest in US stocks and give them the login details, then they can withdraw immediately when you die.
US don't even need to know whether you are dead or alive. biggrin.gif
Then again, better not mess with the IRS.



Anyways, does anyone know how to avoid this tax? Anyone with tax planning ideas?
What if a Malaysian sets up a living trust. Will it still be taxable?
dwRK
post Nov 6 2019, 06:06 AM

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QUOTE(roarus @ Nov 6 2019, 12:02 AM)
Isn't Malaysian securities dividend (other than REITs) taxed at corporate level (single tier dividend) instead?

e.g. Maybank gets taxed 24% by LHDN -> shareholder 0% by LHDN -> whichever tax bracket % you're in by IRS
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I think actually no. Say Mbb dividend tax at 24% but your tax bracket is 10%, you claim back 14% when filling your tax return.

But for foreigners they pay WHT flat rate 27%, so need to pay extra 3%.

For Americans who is taxed worldwide, this mbb divided net of 27% WHT is taxed again as income in USA because no tax treaty with Malaysia.


Edit: it appears I am wrong now with single tier dividend. sweat.gif it's been a while since I paid my last dividend

This post has been edited by dwRK: Nov 6 2019, 08:29 AM

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