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 [DIY] S&P 500 Index w/ 0.07% Annual Fee, Buy the best companies in the world

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roarus
post Nov 5 2019, 09:30 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 5 2019, 09:04 PM)
Ya talking about hedging currency...futures/cfd/options are some methods

It's relevant when you invest substantial sum overseas... say usdmyr 4.2 drop to 3.1... its big % and big $

Should always keep an eye on it
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For myself I'll just keep it simple - rebase everything back to MYR (retirement currency) and rebalance twice a year

QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 5 2019, 09:28 PM)
Can help me understand this expense/spread thingy...

I know lower expense is good... lower bid/ask spread is good...

For an individual say diy buying one-time market (ask price) and selling market (bid price) 5-10 yrs later... why would spread become so important? Also at peak hours spread should be quite small
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I'd say it's negligible for popular index funds. I've never had problem getting orders filled by bidding +1 cent for IWDA (typically has 3 cents wide spread)

This post has been edited by roarus: Nov 5 2019, 09:33 PM
roarus
post Nov 5 2019, 11:54 PM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 5 2019, 10:47 PM)
questions about WHT, I got confused.

A Malaysian citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, WHT is 15%.

What if,
a US citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
A Japanese citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, is the WHT 15% or 30%?
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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 5 2019, 11:07 PM)
Withholding Tax (WHT) is only applicable for US non-resident alien.
Withholding tax is cash which the resident company holds to pay to the government on your behalf.
If they fail to keep this cash before distributing profits to you, they will still be liable to pay to the government.

Hence, US citizen do not have to pay WHT but pay according to their usual tax rates. I believe they measure the % based on each person's income.
Just like Malaysia. When you file income tax, there is a section for dividends received. However, we do not pay dividend tax because currently, it's exempt.
In future, we may have to.
WHT 15%. If you look at my thread. The dividends are already 'priced in' into the share price. Hence, the ETF does not pay dividends out but the NAV increases, and thus the price of the ETF itself. But someone point out if I am wrong.
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For Malaysian tax resident, it's quite straight forward as we don't pay dividend and capital gain tax on securities.

For US citizen buying Irish domiciled ETF, I'm pretty sure they'd get walloped by 15% and then again by IRS on capital and dividend. People do a tax reset by liquidating assets before they step foot in American soil when they qualify to become a tax resident there.

For Japanese citizen it depends whether their inland revenue taxes overseas dividend/capital gain. Japan likely has some tax treaty with the US, probably best to buy one from Tokyo Stock Exchange instead if there is.

This post has been edited by roarus: Nov 5 2019, 11:55 PM
roarus
post Nov 6 2019, 12:02 AM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 5 2019, 11:48 PM)
WHT is charged by the host country to non tax residency ppl... so if you get German shares dividend in Germany you pay Germany's WHT rate... US ppl hold Malaysian shares get dividend in Bursa they pay Malaysia's WHT.
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Isn't Malaysian securities dividend (other than REITs) taxed at corporate level (single tier dividend) instead?

e.g. Maybank gets taxed 24% by LHDN -> shareholder 0% by LHDN -> whichever tax bracket % you're in by IRS
roarus
post Nov 6 2019, 11:27 AM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 6 2019, 01:34 AM)
Anyways, does anyone know how to avoid this tax? Anyone with tax planning ideas?
What if a Malaysian sets up a living trust. Will it still be taxable?
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*Disclaimer not a will/estate expert

From briefly speaking to my friend who does Rockwill, a living trust is something else - it kicks in for conditions where you're alive but not sound of mind/vegetative state.

You're probably thinking something along the lines of how Wozza plans to have 90% S&P500 and 10% US gov bonds allocated once he kicks the bucket? That would still fall under estate
roarus
post Nov 6 2019, 02:55 PM

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QUOTE(Chounz @ Nov 6 2019, 12:16 PM)
i currently looking at this : BNP Paribas Easy S&P 500 UCITS ETF EUR C (ESE.PA), listed in France, dividend will be reinvested into the ETF.
Current price EUR 12-13 per share, quite cheap also.

Should be able to address the WHT issue?
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It's a synthetic fund

Pros:
You can get away with US WHT (assuming France doesn't tax you anything)

Cons:
It holds bunch of random stocks and a contract with an institute like Morgan Stanley to swap for S&P 500 returns. If Morgan Stanley blows up you'd be holding and tracking those random stocks.
roarus
post Nov 6 2019, 07:16 PM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 6 2019, 04:53 PM)
what if you buy US-domiciled ETF but auto reinvest (DRIP)??
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The current US tax structure makes in impossible for accumulating ETF. DRiP is only available for individual stocks

QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 6 2019, 04:36 PM)
Meaning if the NAV is $100 and a $1 dividend is declared by companies in S&P 500, the management will pay the tax (assume 15%).
Hence, the NAV increases by $100 + $1 (1-0.15)= $100.85.

This is why no dividend yield is displayed.
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For accumulative fund (assuming transparency of cost to file paperwork and reinvest):
On ex date: $100-$1 = $99 and on payment date $99.85

QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 6 2019, 04:36 PM)
Meaning if the NAV is $100 and a $1 dividend is declared by companies in S&P 500.
NAV is still $100 because dividends are paid out to unit holders.
A US-resident pays according to their tax rate.
A Malaysian will pay 30% WHT.
Price of the ETF is still $100.

This is why dividend yield is displayed. In this case, the yield is 1%.
For distributing fund (assuming transparency of cost to file paperwork and distribution)
US domiciled on ex date: $100-$1 = $99 and on payment due date investors get $0.70
Irish domiciled on ex date: $100-$1 = $99 and on payment due date investors get $0.85

QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 6 2019, 07:09 PM)
Not as quite straight forward for things that pay interest - cert of deposits (FD), directly held US treasury are exempt. Certain or all municipal bonds are exempt too. But not US treasury ETFs though

This post has been edited by roarus: Nov 6 2019, 07:31 PM
roarus
post Nov 6 2019, 08:51 PM

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QUOTE(Chounz @ Nov 6 2019, 05:53 PM)
I don't get it, if it is accumulating ETF, since there is no dividend declare, how can we kena WHT?
I thought the accumulating ETF should work the same way like Warren B?

Even if there is WHT, should on the ETF level right (since the ETF is the one receiving the dividend from the US companies).
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For example iShares ETF S&P 500 would hold Apple shares. Apple would pay out dividend to iShares. Those dividends are taxable even though it is not distributed to ETF holder.

Berky is different in a way that it is a holding company and not fund manager. It has controlling rights to stocks it invests in and employs tricks like share swaps, parking assets under various sub entities like the insurance companies it owns to be tax 'efficient'. BlackRock iShares won't be able to do employ such creative tricks since the stock shares are ringfenced by trustees
roarus
post Nov 7 2019, 10:48 AM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 7 2019, 10:14 AM)
Yggdrasil

thinking in simplistic terms...

sxr8...0.07% expense, 15% WHT
voo... 0.03% expense, 30% WHT

by inspection voo is better right? although pay 2x WHT but save more than 2x expense. if minimal to no dividend...then voo is outright winner

so maybe only high dividend yield could swing it to sxr8...you know how to work this hypothetical threshold? my calculus fails me today  bangwall.gif  bangwall.gif  bangwall.gif

maybe useful to assess other high dividend paying etfs...
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No, expense ratio doesn't have as big of an impact as WHT. It's 0.04% difference vs whole 15% difference here.

Let's say S&P500 yields ~2% anually

Hypothetical Irish and US ETFs:
i. LEPRECHAUN @ 0.07%, 15% WHT
ii. YEEHAW @ 0.03%, 30% WHT

In a hypothetical situation where S&P500 index stay frozen in time for 1 year:
1 Jan: 1,000
31 Dec: 1,000

...and both ETFs are priced at $100

Without expense and dividend:
LEPRECHAUN
1 Jan: $100
31 Dec: $100

YEEHAW
1 Jan: $100
31 Dec: $100

Let's add 2% dividends minus WHT:
LEPRECHAUN
1 Jan: $100
31 Dec: 100 + (0.85*0.02*100) = $101.70

YEEHAW
1 Jan: $100
31 Dec: 100 + (0.70*0.02*100) = $101.40

Now add expense ratio
LEPRECHAUN
1 Jan: $100
31 Dec: 101.70*0.9993 = 101.62881 => $101.63

YEEHAW
1 Jan: $100
31 Dec: 101.40*0.9997 = 101.36958 => $101.37

This post has been edited by roarus: Nov 7 2019, 01:38 PM
roarus
post Nov 7 2019, 08:41 PM

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QUOTE(alexkos @ Nov 7 2019, 03:08 PM)
Careful bro must post content ya... If not mod cari I for justification I kantoi.

BTW those interested in more global index than sp500 can lookup EIMI... Emerging market exposure.

But TER 0.18% I dun like....
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That's just emerging market. To start off it's probably cheaper to just buy 1 ticker VWRA which is roughly 90:10 developed:emerging and not worry about rebalancing
roarus
post Nov 9 2019, 12:36 AM

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QUOTE(alexkos @ Nov 8 2019, 08:01 AM)
VWRA got Ireland domiciled?
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It is Irish, the distributing version is VWRD

QUOTE(Chounz @ Nov 8 2019, 03:10 PM)
Even the ETF domiciled in US also kena tax when US company pay dividend?

My understanding is:
US company pay dividend to US ETF (no tax), but US ETF pay dividend to us (30% WHT)
US company pay dividend to non-US ETF (15% WHT), if non-US ETF pay dividned to us (15% WHT)
US company pay dividend to non-US ETF (15% WHT), if non-US ETF accumulated dividend (no tax)

Any sifus can share a bit?
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I may not be 100% accurate, but I like to see it this way for Malaysian tax resident:
US stock pay dividend US ETF, fund manager handles 0% WHT and pays out dividends -> broker withholds 30% tax -> investor
US stock pay dividend Irish ETF, fund manager handles 15% WHT and pays out dividends -> broker withholds 0% -> investor
US stock pay dividend Irish ETF, fund manager handles 15% WHT and reinvests

QUOTE(Chounz @ Nov 8 2019, 03:15 PM)
i think need to see whether they got any protection or not.

Tradestation global using IB and IB is under SIPC (something like PIDM for Malaysia Bank), according to SIPC website the limit of SIPC protection is $500,000, which includes a $250,000 limit for cash and no requirement that a customer reside in or be a citizen of the United States. A non-U.S. citizen with an account at a brokerage firm that is a member of SIPC is treated the same as a resident or citizen of the United States with an account at a SIPC member brokerage firm.

So as long dont invest more than USD500k should be quite safe la  tongue.gif
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PIDM equivalent is FDIC
SIPC is protection for securities

One thing to note when you're signing up for TradeStation Global is that it is an introducting broker for Interactive Brokers UK Ltd, not Interactive Brokers LLC (US). Thus, I'll assume only UK FCA's FSCS protection.

You can technically get more than $500k protection. Once your account reaches USD$100,000 you may transfer to Interactive Brokers LLC. You get:
- FDIC for cash (any currency)
- Excess cash protection with sweep account feature (distributes your cash across multiple banks)
- SPIC for securities
- Excess securities protection insured by Lloyd's
- Of course, cheaper trade commissions
roarus
post Nov 9 2019, 07:17 PM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 9 2019, 12:49 PM)
Boss... any high income type products to recommend... ?

I was just checking ibkr margin financing, for EUR rate is say 1.5%, so if you get 3% interest / dividend... basically gaji buta1.5% right, ignore wht and price fluctuations for simplicity.

USD lending rate is say 3%... so if I need USD, best to first short EUR.USD, essentially borrowing EUR at 1.5% to sell for USD.
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Don't get what you meant by high income products? Or you meant high yield?

Sure you pay 1.5% for EUR, but it'll be a bet that USD will not weaken against Euro. If it's that easy and certain everyone would be doing it, right?
roarus
post Nov 10 2019, 12:40 AM

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QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 9 2019, 09:45 PM)
Yes high yield products. I briefly saw a few usd etfs that's 7-10% so was thinking the dividend more than cover the loan
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I'm more of an investment grade guy, but you can check out iShares High Yield Corp Bonds - https://www.ishares.com/uk/individual/en/pr...-bond-ucits-etf

Don't go all out with 100% high yield for your bond holdings though, maybe 10-15% of your total bond holdings if you want to take some risk and only when your total portfolio is big enough (assuming 15% of total bond and you're on 20/80 ratio for bond/equity - it's just a measly RM15k for a RM500k port)

QUOTE(dwRK @ Nov 9 2019, 09:45 PM)
The second point is instead of taking a usd margin loan at 3%... I take a eur loan at 1.5% and use that to buy usd... so effectively a usd loan at 1.5%. If usd strengthen its in my favor because I'm holding usd.

Sounds simple so I don't know if I'm missing something tbh...
Hypothetically would you take out a 4.8% MYR loan, convert and dump into a 6% IDR FD? You might end up with more IDR at maturity, but IDR might've weaken at that point you'll still bleed money after converting IDR -> MYR and settling the MYR loan. Oh and don't forget you're serving the MYR loan while waiting for the IDR FD to mature. If IDR rallies instead, lucky you.
roarus
post Nov 10 2019, 12:36 PM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 10 2019, 10:14 AM)
then, everything in EUR???
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Throughout Europe (e.g. Switzerland SWISS SIX/Germany XETRA/London LSE), usually the popular Irish funds are available in EUR, GBP and USD denomination.

Assuming non currency hedge class of a fund, after purchase you'll be owning securities tied to the underlying company stocks - partial ownership of the companies and not hard currency. The price just reflects the converted perceived value of the aggregated stocks in EUR/GBP/USD.

In the scenario:
i. S&P500 index is unchanged
ii. GBP currency rallies hard against the EUR and USD
iii. EUR currency drops against USD and GBP

USD denominated CSPX price unchanged
EUR denominated SXR8 price will increase
GBP denominated CSP1 price will drop

QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 10 2019, 10:14 AM)
will EUR/MYR go up or down after brexit?
It's anyone's guess

QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 10 2019, 10:33 AM)
why is there a price difference between CSPX and VOO even though both track S&P500 and in USD?
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Simply because they're different funds, they just happen to track the same index. They have their own net asset value and they can splice it up and set any initial price at inception they want. Even if they started out at the same price, they will eventually drift apart due to tracking error, expense ratio and dividend payout/reinvestment.

I like it better if they're priced higher, as each cent difference in bid/ask translates to lower % spread difference:
i. $50, bid/ask 49.99/50.01 = 0.04%
ii. $200, bid/ask 199.99/200.01 = 0.01%
roarus
post Nov 10 2019, 08:23 PM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 10 2019, 04:05 PM)
Thanks!

Then I won't be transferring money to USD anymore, just EUR.
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And you're holding EUR because you're retiring there/have kids planning to study there/foreseeable trip to EU?

QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 10 2019, 07:07 PM)
for iShares MSCI China ETF in Nasdaq, this is china-domiciled but traded in the US, how does the tax work?
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For underlying stocks - small handful are ADR, the rest are Chinese. But the fund is US domiciled, so 30% WHT applies

This post has been edited by roarus: Nov 10 2019, 08:26 PM
roarus
post Nov 10 2019, 08:43 PM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 10 2019, 08:27 PM)
no.... simply because it allows us to buy Irish-domiciled ETF.

and transferring money into EUR is easier than USD for IBKR.
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Yup that's fine, transfer whichever is more convenient/economical - there's shouldn't be real diff whether you hold EUR/GBP/USD denominated funds as the underlying is the same.
roarus
post Nov 11 2019, 10:12 AM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 11 2019, 05:23 AM)
VUSA has much higher trading volume according to Bloomberg, compared to SXR8. Is VUSA not preferable then?
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VUSA by Vanguard is traded in GBP. Any one by iShares/SPDR/Vanguard domiciled in Ireland that rocks your boat is fine
roarus
post Nov 11 2019, 03:26 PM

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QUOTE(Chounz @ Nov 11 2019, 03:23 PM)
Last time GBP value is low, should buy more eh...
now currency also earn ady
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You get more GBP from MYR, but the fund will be priced higher due to weaker GBP compared to EUR and USD
roarus
post Nov 11 2019, 03:38 PM

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QUOTE(Chounz @ Nov 11 2019, 03:30 PM)
i see, so there is no different also, since ultimately still based on S&500 value in USD?

Btw, do you know any capital gain tax for UK?
May consider to buy VUSA, since IB can accept GBP straight, save USD2 for convert SGD to USD
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For VUSA, no capital gain tax for Malaysian tax resident (with no other tax residency)
roarus
post Nov 12 2019, 11:20 AM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 12 2019, 07:08 AM)
anyone using TSG?

If you buy USD-denominated ETF in LSE, how do they charge you? Is it in GBP or USD?
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USD, for the amount equivalent to GBP1.50 (min) or 0.12% of traded value whichever higher.

Typically GBP1.50 translates to USD1.90 - 1.95
roarus
post Nov 12 2019, 11:54 AM

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QUOTE(moosset @ Nov 12 2019, 11:43 AM)
so it costs 1USD extra to invest in Irish domiciled ETF, as opposed to US domiciled. So 12 months would be 12 USD extra per ETF. sad.gif
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You can lump it into 3-4 months if your investment amount is small

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