Innovation from developers alone is not enough. Innovation from the players is what make Starcraft a great spectators sport. Everything is hot when they're new, but as time pass ppl don't care anymore. Starcraft is 10 years old and still hot, that speaks a lot. That innovation you're talking about will become obsolete after 2/3 years. After that innovation and creativity of the players are the thing that push the game further. Thats why blizzard listen to the pros, because they obviously know better than you.

Starcraft is not O2jam. A noob 200 apm is different than gosus 200 apm. If someone click 3x faster than you, it means they think 3x faster than you. Players put their thoughts in every action they do. Its not mindless clicking. Execution is also part of strategy. In real life no matter how grand your strategy, execution is the thing that matters.

Some ppl think a slower pace game will give room for more thoughts and strategy. But that is so wrong. Im sure you've already faced some situation irl that requires you to make quick decision. If a football coach saw flaws in his team play during 1st half, he only got less than 30 minutes to fix that. In real life the decision you make may not be perfect, but it sure is the best you can do at any given situation. If you give a monkey 1000 years to solve a mathematical equation, im sure that monkey can do it. In real life quick thinker is always better.

And last thing....................is sc2 even in beta stage yet?

Of cos quick thinking is always better than slow thinking.. but is RTS is all about outclicking your opponent?? So does a player micromanage 12 dragoons without having a single lost makes him a better strategist?? So the whole damm game is won because this guy can take down 3x of his enemy troops because he can keep all his dragoons alive..

That is not strategy thats skill...and which is just no different from beat em up games, football games and etc..

And Koreans cant admit that fact cos they just simply suck in other game where out clicking your opponents doesn't win the game

This post has been edited by redeye84: May 21 2008, 06:15 PM

It's just a game. The pros play it well because they've played the EXACT same map or been through the EXACT same situation hundreds of times, possibly thousands. In real life, if you've been through your toilet hundreds of times, then, you can sleep walk in, bathe, brush your teeth, take a piss, etc. all the while with your eyes closed...

Anyway, I don't care what they are going to do with competitive play, I just want to enjoy the story and crush my friends in LAN. Hell, it's about time...

Well at least the BC looks much more terrifying than SC1's. Again, Terran's main force is late tech units such as the Thor and the BC, not sure how strong the earlier units will fare against the beefed up Zealot and blinking Stalkers.

The reason that SC is still hot in Korea is because,believe it or not,Koreans are just another bunch of Dotards.People who cant accept any changes.They only excels in their own game while looking down on other games because they cant take the drastic changes in newer games.They fail.

If you say innovation gets obsolete in 2/3 years,why are people still buying Dawn of War:Soulstorm?It's a 4 years old game and there are people buying it.THQ release the final expansion for DoW because they know they will make profit from it.They are also making DoW2.If innovations from devs are obsolete in less than a year,why are Relic,Iron Clad,Massive and others are cracking their head to make innovations? They all should make carbon copies of SC so that we can get W40k,Cold War,Modern Warfare etc version of SC.

A slower pace game definitely give more room for thought and strategy.Have you tried Sins of Solar Empire?It's currently the slowest RTS+4X hybrid game for now and that actually gives you more room to think about your next move.Are you going to research techs?Colonise new planets?Build more cap ships?Besides,there are things in life that you cant do it in a short time.Not everything must be done in a short time and it doesnt mean things done in the shortest time is the best.

No,SC2 is not in beta stage but those extreme conservative pros are ruining the game.It's worse than C&C3 now.

Besides,that article have a serious flawed assumption:he is assuming that DoW is CoH with crappy graphics.DoW doesnt share as much randomness compare to CoH.Besides,DoW has one of the least messy graphics due to the team colourable armies.You can colour your army according to the colour you like and there are countless combinations.

Lastly,casual gamers are the main reason that a game sells well.Sims sells much more than Starcraft,in about half of the time.From PC Power Play,Sims 1 was claim to sell 29000000 copies while SC only have 9500000 copies sold.Thats about 3 times more than Starcraft.If Blizzard makes SC2 only for the "pros",it wont sell well since it put off casual gamers.

chess is a super slow pace game and only ur room of thoughts are the limit
so i think u are wrong

LOL~! That's a fine remark for a fine game.

Chess is very similar to Starcraft.
Experienced players can win against newbie with mechanics alone.
True, but the same can be said about chess. Experience players can trash newbie with his mechanics alone.
Against less experienced players you can afford to make many mistakes and still win the game.

The misconception about high level chess play is that the players think everything inside the game.
In reality its not like that. Chess players memorize and study many build opening theory, just like starcraft players have all things memorized 6 minutes into the game. They study the move they're going to make outside the game, they study game played by the pro.

Chess is a turn based strategy. Chess also have time limits.

I think you're having delusions on RTS genre. RTS should be called Real Time Tactical, not RTS.
Play Football Manager, if you only want to do the strategic part.

There's a line between micro and macro in Starcraft. If you micro you cant macro. Its a matter of how you prioritize. Strategy or not this game really push your brain capability to its highest.

On that korean thing, think abit.
Why USA suck at Badminton or Kricket? Because only few of them play the game.
Then ask yourself why koreans suck at other game? You answer.

You are the one who fail.

You dont have rights to say that when you yourself look down on what you call Dotards. High level Dota is not like the pub one that you play. High level dota is an art. Pub Dota game is like a BGH version of starcraft. Though i still believe dota will fail because its not suited for spectators.

You obviously dont know how many computer game titles they've broadcasted in Korea. Starcraft is one(if not only) of the few games that has high spectator value. Thats why its a huge success. South Korea have 13 millions Starcraft fans, but seriously they don't have 13 millions starcraft players. A lot of Starcraft fans are made of ppl who didn't really play the game, the girls especially. When you look at it some girls who know nothing about football cheers for Beckham and Kaka.

So different if you compare it with other e-sports title. Most of non-starcraft pro scene follower are the players itself.
The higher echelons of starcraft players are 10 levels above the higher echelons of other e-sports tittle. Why?, because of the competition and professional structure in Korea. Legends like Boxer, Nada, sAviOr and yellow play like shit not because they suck, but because others got better.

Wait for 5 years(if sins is still played by then), you'll see better players dominates with mechanics on that game.

Blizzard got WoW already. Conclusion Blizzard > EA.
If you're not satisfied, go and tell Blizzard, "you want to know the secret behind EA's success?".

RTT... well so far only WIC have this title cos WIC have near to no resource while other RTS still has..

but the problem is Why do i need to macro while I can micro my army like shit which will kill whatever he throws on me. So after knocking down 3x whatever he has i can simply relax a little and get better troops.. Thats not RTS is about.. so in the long run someone who can click faster will win someone who can plan better..

my best e.g is this video..


Lurker is a Tier 2 anti infantry unit and marines is a tier 1 basic infantry.. So How the f*** can a lurker lose.. after all a lurker cost more than 3 measy marine.

Why USA suck in badminton and Cricket simple.. They no money to be made in that industry.. As why korean suck in everything else because they no money to be made in other games..

no money = no effort

Summary : RtP|DEV loves starcraft just as i love zerg. haha ... that's it.

LOL i love zerg too! All hail the mutalisk!

I do agree in some points made by the both of you irl fast thinking and fast reaction does make a diff but that does not neglect macro planning. Yes there are some slower paste RTS, but it still does not mean that it cant be played fast in DOW a standard game last for 15 minutes, I can not comment on COH as I do not play that game, but even a game like Sins of a Solar Empire can be rushed and win the game, even though its suppose to be a slow past game. Who says that fast thinking does not save the game in a slower past RTS in Sins if you reach 3 times faster than your oponent you definately get 3X the benifits but ofcourse a well planned and more adaptable stretegy will win the game instead of just having an army than cant die because u have units that restore the health of the attacking units all the time. I guess no matter what board game you play the more number of units should win the game instead of having an invulnerable dual piece.

RtP|DEV mentioned about a lasting game, the longer the game does not mean that it will be a more popular game. Just look at the board game like Igo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(board_game) and chess although Igo is the longest continuous board game in human history but it still looses to international chess because of its publicity. When you talk about a popularity of something the media and acceptability plays a very important role. Korea became so faun of its E-sports is because of their nationalistic support and liking for the things they do, they are a country full of sports fanatics. Look at how they go in the recent badminton, they determine to excel in sports or events that they feel that they have a greater chance to do so.

Im not a failure.Koreans are.I dont "worship" a bunch of people who cant take changes.Complain on every little changes in SC2.Even other Korean developed games are mediocre compare to other game developers in terms of gameplay and technology. They fail in gaming.

Comparing SC and WoW to Sims,Blizzard's sales still lose.Sims has a completey different target on the market.EA wants this game to be played by casual gamers while both Blizzard's games are meant for more hardcore players.

In terms of sales,EA>>>>Blizzard.EA has a much better marketing compare to Blizzard.Even a dull feature can seem like an interesting feature in a preview.Other than that,Blizzard>>>EA.

The reason that Blizzard's games are much better than other dev's games are their support,which you and the article completely ignore,not only the players.Blizzard is known support their games for a long time.SC is still patched till today while most other devs cant even release 5 patches for a game's life cycle.

A well supported game and a badly supported game can make all the difference in e-sports and the player base.If DoW well supported till now,it will be still being played competitively till now and will be able to compete with SC.If Blizzard gives SC2 bad support,i would say that the players will still leave the game.

There is another game going to join the RTT genre-DoW2.

There will be even less resource management.Retarded Koreans gonna hate it even more cause they cant micro their damn workers.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: May 22 2008, 04:12 PM

Kotaku featured this:

http://kotaku.com/392875/these-are-suppose...2s-system-specs


Unfortunately squashed by blizzard(or rather fortunately):
http://pc.ign.com/articles/876/876096p1.html

Is it possible for 40/200 to kill 120/200 in Starcraft? You dont need to macro? That shows a lot about your knowledge on Starcraft.

What makes you think someone who's good at fast paced game can't plan better? Like i said Starcraft players put thoughts in every action they do. They click fast because they think faster tha you. They can click fast because they already know lots of things(experience). In real life experience help someone to be a good strategist. Give some inexperienced 180 IQ brat an army to command, he'll f***ed up big time.

There's a lot more into starcraft than clicking.
Try to look Starcraft from the inside not outside. Mind game,tactical decision, game knowledge, experience, creativity.

sAviOr's apm during his prime is low 200, why he still dominates against low 300 apm and near 400 apm players? Nal_ra's apm is around 180 and low 200 during early days of his carrier, yet with his creativity he still dominates. Testies apm is low, and ppl said as the game progress it'll become harder to beat him despite his low apm. Why can he win against higher apm players?

If these players were to play the game that you're playing currently, they will rape you over and over again.

Thats the beauty of Starcraft. It has direct counter and indirect counter. That makes the game more dynamic.
Depending on situation some unit can counter certain unit. Like vulture killing dragoons with mines. In theory Mutalisk will melt against marines, but you can clump them, use muta's mobility to snipe marines that are out of formation one by one.

3 marine vs 2 burrowed lurker, possible. 12 marines vs 8 burrowed lurkers, in your dreams.

Thats because DoW is a battle simulation, but Starcraft is a war simulation.
How is less resource management is good? Do you think during war you can stop food production? Sure its limited but you need to feed your citizens. You must have strong resource to support your industry or else you can reinforce your weapons. Wartime production is different than Peacetime production. You need to manage them carefully or you're going to lose the war. Men fighting on the front line alone doesn't win you the war.

If i still remember some guy, who was a 2nd tier Warcraft 3 pro in Korea play DoW and rape all of you.
Hmm....you know SeleCT? I bet some 2nd tier Korean Starcraft or Warcraft player will do the same in DoW2.

why everything has to do with Dawn of War?

I dont mean 40 men vs 120men.. I mean is 40 men vs his 1st 40 men, I win with little lost.. then he throw in another 40 and i win again and another 40.. which i got so much resources floating.. I can take my sweet time to macro while he struggles with stronger counters.

APM doesnt govern how good you are.. U can be clicking your command center and giving you "Not enuf minerals" or clicking your SCV in pointless area.. and that count as APM. Its what you do with the action.



WHICHHH... will boils down on who can outclick the other!!.. The marine will have to slowly clump his troops while advancing and the mutasik has to be constantly moving to avoid getting shot..

and it also shows that Why should i work my way to get Goliath and its missle upgrade while i can simply micro my marines and i melt those Mutasiks.

So micro > macro in Starcraft land.

Speaking of Select in DOW.. He was prime only when Eldar was at its peak.. but I still give it that he is a good DOW player.

Give me a SC korea pro and i vs him in DOW..

It begins when i started posting an article form Gamasutra comparing Starcraft and Relic games.

When i said 300 apm player i dont mean spammer, i meant players like Jaedong(bfore his prime), Free, Nada, Casy.

This post has been edited by RtP|DEV: May 23 2008, 07:29 PM

Dawn of War has nothing much to do with resource management during a war.Soldiers are sent to a patch of dirt to fight for their faction.No one wants to mine for some random metal ore during a war since they might get chopped to pieces or eaten by some aliens.Warhammer 40k universe is a dangerous place by fluff.Equipments and soldiers are prepared before the war,not during the war in DoW.Besides,a space marine requires years to train by fluff,not appearing from a barracks in 50 seconds.In the game,space marines are delivered to war by Drop Pods,not trained in a Barrack.Some factions like Necrons doesnt even collect resource by fluff.They are ancient robot buried in a tomb.If you are just starting to mine minerals during a war,you are already too slow.

DoW2 further expands this idea by removing even more resource management from the game while focus more on the combat and it will be more identical to the tabletop game.

It just shows that majority of the SC community have little or no understanding of how DoW works.Just jump to the conclusion saying that both DoW and CoH are mediocre games compare to SC just because it's different from SC.

Thats why i said Dawn of War is a battle simulation. Battle and War are 2 different things. Am i wrong here?
Now you start talking about realism huh. Who cares. Its gameplay that matters, put realism aside.
Who the f*** fly his barrack to enemy base just for recon? who build his supply depot on the frontline? Or how the hell mass marines can kill one behemoth class battlecruiser?

BTW, does the writer of the article comes from SC community?
I thought showing the article might be good because its written from neutral point of view.
Of course you might not like it since it says Starcraft is more competitive by nature than Relic games. As for now the competitiveness of SC > DoW. He's just analyzing the reason from his point of view. But seriously i can't find any context in the article saying Starcraft is superior game than DoW. Which game is superior are very subjective.

I remember Carmac writing an article on SK.gaming website about how Starcraft is a better spectators sport than WC3. Then ToD came in with his argument saying WC3 is a better game, while the article actually doesn't say anything about which game is better. I sense you're the same.

You look down on DotA, you look down on Korean Starcraft players. Must be some kind of person who thinks he's right. Well, i myself used to look down on DotA before i knew how they play it competitively. I used to think that Korean are too conservative, too stupid but own everyone because the play like they got no life. But things if look from different perspective can change your paradigm.

Fuh this is getting nowhere, everyone wants to prove they're right(including me ).