First of all, a careful reading of 1 Peter 2, verses 5 and 9 reveals a reference to Exodus 19:6: ". . . and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." This text from Exodus indicates a universal priesthood in the Old Testament. And yet, in Exodus 19:22, we read, "And also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves . . . " In other words, a universal priesthood in the Old Covenant did not exclude the possibility of a distinct ministerial priesthood as well. It would be natural then to expect the same in the New Covenant. And indeed, that is precisely what we discover.

By virtue of the sacrament of baptism and confirmation which gives an indelible mark on the soul, all of us are of truly priests, prophet and kings. However, this priesthood is not the same as that of the ministerial priesthood. The laity are distinguished from both the clergy and religious because their true consecration in the Church is of a secular nature. The use of these terms means, more generally, worship (priest), witness (prophet) and service (king). In this sense there is a continuity with the priesthood of the Old Testament which prefigured the New. In the OT, there is one high priest and other priests in the Temple. In the NT, Christ is the Eternal High Priest, and He chose His Apostles as His ministerial priests and in turn laid hands on others to continue their work.

This fact is recognized even by the early Church Fathers:

Ignatius of Antioch

"Now, therefore, it has been my privilege to see you in the person of your God-inspired bishop, Damas; and in the persons of your worthy presbyters, Bassus and Apollonius; and my fellow-servant, the deacon, Zotion. What a delight is his company! For he is subject to the bishop as to the grace of God, and to the presbytery as to the law of Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Magnesians 2 [A.D. 110]).

"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" (ibid., 6:1).

"Take care, therefore, to be confirmed in the decrees of the Lord and of the apostles, in order that in everything you do, you may prosper in body and in soul, in faith and in love, in Son and in Father and in Spirit, in beginning and in end, together with your most reverend bishop; and with that fittingly woven spiritual crown, the presbytery; and with the deacons, men of God. Be subject to the bishop and to one another as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit" (ibid., 13:1–2).

"Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in his death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore—and such is your practice that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ our hope, in whom we shall be found, if we live in him. It is necessary also that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries [sacraments] of Jesus Christ, be in every way pleasing to all men. For they are not the deacons of food and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They must therefore guard against blame as against fire" (Letter to the Trallians 2:1–3 [A.D. 110]).

"In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him" (ibid., 3:1–2).

"He that is within the sanctuary is pure; but he that is outside the sanctuary is not pure. In other words, anyone who acts without the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons does not have a clear conscience" (ibid., 7:2).

"I cried out while I was in your midst, I spoke with a loud voice, the voice of God: ‘Give heed to the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons.’ Some suspect me of saying this because I had previous knowledge of the division certain persons had caused; but he for whom I am in chains is my witness that I had no knowledge of this from any man. It was the Spirit who kept preaching these words, ‘Do nothing without the bishop, keep your body as the temple of God, love unity, flee from divisions, be imitators of Jesus Christ, as he was imitator of the Father’" (Letter to the Philadelphians 7:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Clement of Alexandria

"A multitude of other pieces of advice to particular persons is written in the holy books: some for presbyters, some for bishops and deacons; and others for widows, of whom we shall have opportunity to speak elsewhere" (The Instructor of Children 3:12:97:2 [A.D. 191]).

"Even here in the Church the gradations of bishops, presbyters, and deacons happen to be imitations, in my opinion, of the angelic glory and of that arrangement which, the scriptures say, awaits those who have followed in the footsteps of the apostles and who have lived in complete righteousness according to the gospel" (Miscellanies 6:13:107:2 [A.D. 208]).

Hippolytus

"When a deacon is to be ordained, he is chosen after the fashion of those things said above, the bishop alone in like manner imposing his hands upon him as we have prescribed. In the ordaining of a deacon, this is the reason why the bishop alone is to impose his hands upon him: he is not ordained to the priesthood, but to serve the bishop and to fulfill the bishop’s command. He has no part in the council of the clergy, but is to attend to his own duties and is to acquaint the bishop with such matters as are needful. . . .

"On a presbyter, however, let the presbyters impose their hands because of the common and like Spirit of the clergy. Even so, the presbyter has only the power to receive [the Spirit], and not the power to give [the Spirit]. That is why a presbyter does not ordain the clergy; for at the ordaining of a presbyter, he but seals while the bishop ordains.

"Over a deacon, then, let the bishop speak thus: ‘O God, who have created all things and have set them in order through your Word; Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, whom you sent to minister to your will and to make clear to us your desires, grant the Holy Spirit of grace and care and diligence to this your servant, whom you have chosen to serve the Church and to offer in your holy places the gifts which are offered to you by your chosen high priests, so that he may serve with a pure heart and without blame, and that, ever giving praise to you, he may be accounted by your good will as worthy of this high office: through your Son Jesus Christ, through whom be glory and honor to you, to the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit, in your holy Church, both now and through the ages of ages. Amen’" (The Apostolic Tradition 9 [A.D. 215]).

Would love to agree with you if you can show the verse that supports the bold. (more importantly...the verse that tells us..those that have the authority to forgive sins in the place of Christ.)

I've read the Catholic answers to this (https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-can-a-priest-forgive-sin)
but as I've showed you quite plain...no where it is mention in John 20:23..the word priest is not there.

John 20:23 (KJV) - Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. <---(no mention of priest, no mention of anyone representing Christ to forgive sin)

Even the Catholic defense of putting forth (from the link)..Jesus priesthood ordain/given to Men to forgive sins (Hebrews 4:14 and 7:25).....there's nothing in those verses that talks about priesthood AND forgiving sins.

Hebrews 4:14 (KJV) - Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. <---(no mention of priest being represented of Christ to forgive sin)
Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) - Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.<---(no mention of priest, no mention of anyone representing Christ to forgive sin)


I don't see any phrases or word of forgiving sins through Priest represented...so where is it?



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 9 2018, 12:02 PM

Christ was saying that to His Apostles and not to anyone else. Coupled with the long-held practice even in the early Church, your position is the revolutionary one. And that's precisely the defect of Sola Scriptura which in itself is not scriptural.

James 5:16 "Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. "

How is it that Protestants insist not confessing their sins to others but insist on confessing directly to God?

Let's take a closer look at certain words in the New Testament. For instance, the word "presbyter," or "elder" in some translations. "Presbyter" is the English version of the Greek word "presbuteros," and means "Priest." Presbyters are NOT Presbyterians! That branch of Christianity didn't get invented by man until the 16th Century. These priests in the New Testament were ordained by the laying on of hands with prophetic utterances, which the bible talks about in

1 Timothy 4:14: Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.

In James, we learn that these elders administer the anointing of the sick, one of the seven sacraments:

James 5:14-15: Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Another word in the New Testament that Paul mentions is the word "reconciliation."

2 Corinthians 5;18-19: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Here we see that priests like Paul have the ministry of reconciliation, or the forgiveness of sins done in Christ's name. This sacramental power was first granted to the apostles by Jesus Christ himself in John 20:21-23: Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

There is no place in the entire New Testament that says we should confess our sins directly to God, like some people mistakenly think. There are numerous instances of people confessing their sins to God's ministers, however:

Matthew 3:6: and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mark 1:5: And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Acts.19:18: Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.

1 Timothy 6:12: Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Mar 9 2018, 01:07 PM

Erm..Like I said ...in John 20:21-23...none of them were ordain as priests yet (when were they conferred the title of apostles?)...they were all disciples. And the message or word of reconciliation are messages of reconciliation (preaching of the word..hence why I told you about logos) not confession of sins. I thought we have already discuss this? Why are we going in repeated round again?

As For James 5:16 ..there word there is Healed ( iaomai in the Greek), not saved as in eternal life. Confession of sins there is to let go of stronghold (it's stated right there ["so that you can be healed"]...<--as the purpose.....Don't think this verse is suitable to be used as a verse for anyone representing Christ to forgive sin to which there is none.

For Matthew 3:6 & Mark 1:5, John the baptist belongs to the Old Covenant..(Law), being the last ..preparing the way to usher in Christ (New Covenant) so it's not relevant as he is the last prophet of the Law. There are Christians who don't know this but I have scripture verse to prove this. (Matthew 11:13).

For Acts19:18, the word use there is "praxis" which translated as deeds..referring to confessing their wrong doings in conversion (saying the sinners prayer)...as oppose to the contention..Catholic Priests taking the confession of sins for believers after conversion.

1 Timothy 6:12, is referring to confession of Faith...not confession of sin..so not relevant.

I still don't see which verse supports what you say....

*Please don't think I'm doing this to go against you...I'm not, you are my Bro in Christ...I'm doing this because the scripture verse are as it is...I don't see where in each the verse it says what you've said about ordain priest representing Christ given the authority to forgive sins on behalf of God...I just don't see it where......

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 10 2018, 08:16 AM

Hallo...welcome to the argument lounge...lol. (I'm part of it..guilty as charged... )

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 10 2018, 08:17 AM

How are you praying?

Mark 11:24 (NIV) - Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Morning Dear Brother and Sisters in Christ.

How are you praying today? You know...it's quite a norm when we pray..most of the time we pray in a manner ...... as IF we need to coax God to answer our prayer. It's as if we are begging God please. Sometime with desperation and tears. My Bible tells me we are doing it wrong hence why the inconsistent answered prayers or no answers at all.

Jesus said believed that you have received it and it will be yours.

As Christians we all know this way of prayer and yet we don't seem to be be doing it. Part of our mind or perhaps someone may have told you otherwise...It's too good to be true...There are hidden conditions....or I've tried but nothing happened.

Do you know that the phrase...the righteous shall live by Faith is a 24/7 thing every minute, every second? The whole problem with us is that we practice momentary faith. During prayers we struggle because we don't really believe God will answer. We believe God "MAY" answer. We have been hoodwinked by unscrupulous Faith corrupter...we need to live in reality.

Dear Bro and Sis....we live in reality..we live in this world BUT we ARE NOT of this world. We don't have to submit to Natural reasonings because our Christ who gave us the Holy Spirit is NOT Natural but supernatural. We as Christians should live by Heaven's principalities..meaning, We can believe for miracles to happen because our God is the one who causes the impossible to work.

We should be praying most of the time..in Thanks Giving..Thanking God, the answer is already in motion and the answer is already on the way.


Read again slowly Mark 11:24...is there anything in there ambiguous that seem to imply, it's a maybe or perhaps?

Think about it.

God Bless

Question: Steve, I have heard people use verses like Matthew 21:22 and Mark 11:24 to support the claim that you can ask whatever things from God and receive from Him. How would you respond to these people?

Answer: Matthew 21:22 and Mark 11:24 has often been misinterpreted in some sectors of evangelism. Some have used it to support a form of Prosperity and Word of Faith theology that says God will give you just about anything you want as long as you have enough faith in Him. Although a superficial reading of the text may seem to support that interpretation, a reading in context will show that Matthew 21:22 and Mark 11:24 does not support a prosperity, self-serving theology in anyway. These two verses teach that there is power in faith-based prayer, yet it always goes hand-in-hand with God’s sovereign workings.  

We see the first example of this in Mark 11:24 where Jesus speaks about the power of faith and the sovereign outworking of God after Jesus withers up a fig tree. Peter was astounded at such an amazing act, to which Jesus responded with his analogy of moving mountains (v. 22-23). Jesus’ point is that if believers sincerely trust in God and truly realize the unlimited power that is available through such faith in Him, they will see His mighty powers at work (Jn 14:13-14).  Jesus was not saying that believers will receive anything they wanted as long as they asked. God does not cater to the sinful desires of the flesh, because that would contradict what James said in James 4:2-3. In context of what Jesus was preaching (as well as what He taught in Matthew 17:20 and in the Sermon on the Mount), He says that there are no limits on a believer’s prayers as long as they are done in God’s will. This means that man’s faith and prayer are fully compatible with God’s sovereignty and usually works together in accomplishing God’s salvific and glorious purposes throughout history. This is a mysterious working, but not mutually exclusive. It is our duty to be faithful and obedient to the clear teachings in Scripture regarding prayer, such as what is found in Mark 11:24 and Matthew 21:22.

Whenever God’s will unfolds throughout history, whether it be the salvation of certain individuals, the dethronement of the wicked, or the aid of the poor, it usually has worked in conjunction with the fervent and faithful prayers of the saints who interceded on behalf of those people or institutions. This is what it means to pray in accordance with God’s will, to pray for what is good and holy (Matt 7:7-8). The “all things for which you pray and ask” in Mark 11:24 are the things that are prayed for and lived for according to God’s good and holy will – the good things that a Christian trusts God for, for God knows what is best for His children.

The second example of the relationship between man’s faith and God’s sovereign workings is Matthew 21:22. What is that we as Christians are to believe? It is believing in His word to tell us what is best. It is faith that He will give us what is best, not only for our lives, but also what will bring Him the most glory according to His redemptive-historical purposes. If we pray for someone’s healing or for someone’s financial well-being and God does not deliver, we must not assume that the promises of this verse failed. Rather, we must trust that the healing or financial well-being is not part of God’s larger plan that is ultimately for our good. Everything is done to conform a believer to Christlikeness, which is part of the sanctification process, and the theology in these two verses support that doctrine as well.

The “ask and you shall receive” is therefore not a formula for health and wealth as many speculate from a superficial reading of the texts. Rather, it is the Lord’s command to His children to pray in faith according to His will, and not from their own selfish motives. If they pray according to God’s instruction, God answers their prayers because He acts in conjunction with their prayers in the outworking of His sovereign plans. 

The Apostles were called by Christ Himself, they don't go around offering themselves as Apostles (or pastors in the modern context!).

You may not know the word priest in the context of ministerial priesthood, but Scripture has the term presbyter or elder. And these again don't go about claiming that they are such but they are selected by laying of hands.

The earliest organization of the Church in Jerusalem had a council or college of ordained presbyters (Greek: πρεσβύτεροι elders). In Acts 11:30 and Acts 15:22, we see a collegiate system of government in Jerusalem though headed by James, according to tradition the first bishop of the city. In Acts 14:23, the Apostle Paul ordains presbyters in the churches he founded.

Sorry, the sinner's prayer is a modern invention.

Yeah, I'm not going through all those pages. Just trying to find a place to hang out and hide.

You're missing the point..wasn't questioning they were apostles or the title of priest but at THAT point in time when Christ told them whoever sins you forgive...they weren't ordained of any title yet..they were disciples as all of us.

Yeeck, you got to read slower what I posted. The points still stand...there isn't any verse that support the notion that Man can represent Christ / God in forgiving other people's sin.

You're welcome to hang out...just don't mind the squabbling.

I'm wondering how does this coincide with predestination, will of God, ect. I mean, we can't make God change his mind on whether or not to show mercy on someone... or can we?

Noted.

So the key is to find out what is God's will according to his Word. Is it something He wants to give or something He wants to with-hold.

You don't have to wonder or guess with ambiguity what is God's will. The Bible says anyone who sees the Son, See's The Father. Scripture helps us to understand...The Son is the EXACT representative of God the Father. So the Key is to study Jesus, then You will know for sure what is the Father's will. They are one and the same God.

For example..with regards to Healing...Look at Jesus..has He withheld anyone from that? You know in the Bible, He has never with held anyone from Healing, All who touched Him or reached out to Him...they all got healed.
From there you should have an assured heart that God is FOR healing and never Against.

And when Christ says .... When you pray..believe that you have received it, and it will be yours...THAT is ALSO God's the Father's will.

Bible is the assured Word of God. ...For me I rather believe the Bible than any writing or sayings of Man. BY having the right faith..does it affect anything? Well You bet! This is no theory. You will experience God!

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 10 2018, 11:23 PM

Isn't it better to pray directly to God instead of Mary? Why is Mary the middle (wo)man between God and man? So is there a different between praying to God and Mary? And why is Mary still considered as Virgin Mary? She wasn't "virgin" permanently. lol

She was virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Joseph and Mary had other children as well you know. So she can't be considered as "Virgin Mary."

1 Timothy 2:5 says there is one mediator between God and men. It never specify Virgin Mary or priests, saints, etc...As Christians we pray to a deity not a human. Worshipping and bowing to idols are forbidden you know. From the beginning itself, we should worship to God. Not to create an image and worshipping the image. Paul said that Christ is the image of God, he didn't mention in the Bible that you should create an image of Jesus and Mary.

Well if you say that 1500 years ago somebody added "alone" in the Bible text, then I must ask who added "priest can forgive sins" in the Bible?
Its not in the text. Its just your imagination. Jesus was speaking to his disciples. There's no mandate from Heaven that mention men have the ability to forgive sins.

Seriously what's the point of praying to God when Catholics insist that its better to pray to men? I find that really insulting.

You see yeeck its tradition when it comes to celibacy, not that because of the Bible. Because the Pope decreed it. lol

Chicken and duck. yeeck. lol.

Ok sure.

They were indeed made priests at the event where He told His Apostles to "do this for a commemoration of me." He gave them the power to forgive sins after His Resurrection when He told them "receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive...."

This post has been edited by yeeck: Mar 11 2018, 02:28 PM

Luke 22
The Last Supper

7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”

9“Where do you want us to prepare for it?” they asked.

10He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 12He will show you a large room upstairs, all furnished. Make preparations there.”

13They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

14When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.a 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!” 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.


1 Corinthians 11
Correcting an Abuse of the Lord’s Supper

17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

33So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. 34Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

And when I come I will give further directions.





---------------------------------------------------------

Okay Bro Yeeck....You're referring to Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11. Since you said..they were indeed made priests at "that" event.

Where does it say, they were made priest? Which word, which verse?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 12 2018, 08:19 AM