You're confused & confused as can be! I will deal with you when i have the time.

I know you're dissatisfied & trying to engage me again. Very well. I'll give you the opportunity soon.

You only preach on the the doctrine of Grace. Never the 2nd part about the Law. As if the Law is no longer applicable in this dispensation.

As for the RCs, you should know what they stand on, which is vastly different from what we Protestants believe in.

If you do not have the gumption to preach the true Word of God to them, it's fine by me. Maybe the HS didn't compel you to do so.

BUT don't get in my way! !

unknown warrior You know, i'm actually quite upset with you.

Every time your theology is opposed, you will go gather some support from the RCs, as if they're your fellow brethren.

I observed that, when your debates with penguin got somewhat heated.

You do realize the ecumenical movement is gathering strength & it will be at its peak during the time of Jacob's trouble?

Why the insecurity?

Also, you asked me the same question on sin twice & i gave you my answer & stance. Yet you still owe me 2 answers. So here they're again :

1) Is OBEDIENCE works?

2) Are you a proponent of OSAS?


K, lets get the ball rolling a bit . . . . .

3) what is Romans 8:1?

Actually it's not I'm dissatisfied, I don't feel anything like that, brother I just find it an irony.

If you want to share with the RC, do it with love.

Do it with a doomsday prophet mode, you will only reach a dead end and stalemate.

They won't budge, neither will we.

First of all, don't think works equates to doing charity works, works from Bible definition means anything originating from yourselves and if you put your trust in that "self", Yes Obedience can be works. Why? Because the bible refer works as works of the Law. Look at Galatians 2:16

If you say Salvation is conditional, then by that definition, it cannot be Free Gift. <---You will find it hard to crack this argument.

Yes I believe once you are saved, you are save eternally as long as you keep looking to Christ in Faith. So what about Christians who love to sin and yet profess to believe in Christ? I say have patience and pray for them, don't be a fruit inspector, playing the role of God as if you know they will end in hell for sure. This is where the Bible says do not judge, isn't it? so Pray for them, teach them, guide them, feed them, Love them, leave them to God but more importantly, don't see them with the view they're bad, see them as someone who needs a shepherd. You can't change them, by your strength. Let God be the one as the Almighty.

What about Romans 8:1? What about it?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 25 2018, 09:23 PM

Predestination vs Reprobation

Didn't you just agree with me when you said the RED highlighted part?

Perhaps you might want to expound on that.

I also believe in eternal security & OSAS IF we continue abiding in Christ. I will explain on *'IF' further.



For the rest of what you said after that, that is not needed in our discussion.

I agree we should pray for them & let God be the judge, but that is not our point of contention right now.

You are aware that "Christians who love to sin & yet profess to believe in Christ", are to be put out of the church?

We should not even sup with them! The term is brother(s).



- 1st Corinthians 5:9 - 11




As for the blue highlighted part, it's not hard to crack at all!

There are just too many verses sprinkled all over the Bible as warnings to Christians which are impossible to ignore.

We can't just acknowledge the verses about God's Saving Grace, & yet ignore other passages. They're there in the Bible.

The word apostasy is clearly written in the Bible.

By definition, only believers can be guilty of apostasy.

It is impossible for unbelievers to apostatize, as one cannot abandon the faith since one was never a part of the faith to begin with. Makes sense?

"Now the Spirit says clearly that in the last times some people will abandon the faith by following deceitful spirits, the teachings of demons," - 1st Tim 4:1

Only the brethren are capable of abandoning the faith. Can Paul be any clearer that Christians can fall away?

That is why Paul calls for all believers to persevere (i've used this word many times) in the closing verse of chapter 4.

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF YOU DO, you WILL SAVE both yourself and your hearers." - 1st Tim 4:16

Paul's warning is a conditional one, as indicated by his use of the little word "if."

Converse logic dictates that IF you DO NOT (persevere), you WILL NOT SAVE yourself and your hearers.

Salvation is conditional. Not unconditional.






*Let's move on to the 'IF'

Everyone needs to read the bible and see how many times we are warned to "take heed", and how many times the words are spoken of for us to "keep" and "continue", and we must not overlook the all too important little word, "if"...

I for one would not want to find out which doctrine is correct, by err-ing on the side of "grace covers all", only to find out that Jesus meant what He said, when He said He would be coming back for a church that is without spot or wrinkle, (not one that is dirtied up with the world and its ways.)

If one is living as close to God as possible, then the doctrine wouldn't matter!!

Likewise, i would like to congratulate you on your Christian walk, if you've only been going from strength to strength after leaving Buddhism

However, if one is "touching the unclean thing" and is counting on that "once you are saved, you are always saved" to be put into action, I am afraid that one will be very shocked when the Lord returns.

He clearly said to "Come out from among them and be ye separate (says the Lord) and touch NOT the unclean thing and I will receive you." - 2nd Cor. 6:17


To focus eternal life on a past moment, when one once made a decision for Christ is not consistent with the Scriptures.

This would eliminate man’s free will (we go into free will in another session) from that point on, which the Lord never does.

Willful sin shatters the relationship by which eternal life is obtained. There is an eternal “if” in every consideration of eternal security.

Excerpt :-

• “…if we walk in the light…the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7
• “…if that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” 1 John 2:24
• “…if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” Hebrews 10:38
• “…if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire…” John 15:6
• “…if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” John 8:51
• “…if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” Romans 11:22
• “…if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.” 2 Peter 1:10
• “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.” Hebrews 3:14
• “…if we deny him, he also will deny us.” 2 Timothy 2:12
• “…if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” 1 John 2:15
• “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” John 15:14
• “…if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die.” Romans 8:13

I dunno mang! I see many, many "ifs" written in the Bible

All of these Scriptures are conditional, if we, as men, take our responsibility in the plan of salvation; God’s sovereignty certainly holds no flaws.

All of the Scriptures fit in their proper place when we look at them in a balanced perspective.

We do not have to throw any of them out to make our doctrine fit.

There are Scriptures directed to those who are in danger of falling away, others which are directed to those who have no hope and have sinned unto death; some are for those who have overcome and therefore cannot fall from grace, and still others are directed to those who are striving to reach that place.

Looking at the Scriptures in this light, we can see they do not contradict one another.








Since you touched on Galatians, i will also quote Galatians & throw in another verse from Romans. Just 1 of many from Romans.

How bout Romans 8:30 & Gal 1:6?

Rom 8:30 is a favorite among those who believe in eternal security as they claim this verse demonstrates an unbreakable golden chain of redemption.

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:30 (Sophiera asked about this in the thread, yes?)

They presume that since none of the links in this chain can be broken off from one another, our salvation is assured.

Since whom God predestines, he will also call, justify and ultimately glorify.

Sounds like Paul is making a fool-proof argument here doesn't it?

However, if it can be demonstrated that any of these "links" can be broken off from one another, then logically our salvation is not secure.

One need look no further than,

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all." - Galatians 1:6-7

The word "called" here is the same word used in Rom 8:30. Yet, despite being called, those Galatian believers still turned away and deserted Christ.

This verse demonstrates that just because one is called in Rom 8:30, does not automatically entail that one will be glorified.

Therefore I submit that the text of Romans 8 actually makes a very strong case for conditional security rather than unconditional security.









As for Romans 8:1, i just wanted to see which Bible ver. you would refer to, given your doctrinal stance. So here they are :


"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" - NIV

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" - ESV

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - KJV

Funny how only the KJV has a condition attached Different manuscripts maybe LOL




The whole chapter of Romans 8 is actually very, very good. I've only touched on Rom 8:30 above.








Ok, i better stop here. In case the guy in the "French maid's uniform" complains again about not putting everything under a spoiler

No, I don't see how you crack that. Gift basically means something given to you unmerited. Conditional means something given to you merited, hence the meaning of "conditional". If you say Salvation is conditional, then Grace has no meaning and Salvation is now depending on your works of the Law. You cannot say unmerited = merited. Do you even understand this?

Not really, the Highlighted in red, in your understanding is about obedience pointing to your performance, mine is about surrendering in Faith to God apart from any performance.

Abiding in Christ is to stay in his love, that is in scripture, it is not about your effort in obeying whatever laws.

Walking in the Light, means walking in the revelation of what Christ has done for you, which is always being conscious of Christ making us cleanse by his blood. What you were expecting was "walking according to the light, pointing to obedience. That is not what it say. "IN" is the context.

The whole point of 1 Timothy 4:16 is in verse 10. Go read what it says there. Talking about Faith. You propagate anything other than Faith in God for example if you want to be justified by God law, you will fall from grace and that is the context you're in the danger of misleading others. (Propagating Law)

Jesus coming back for a church that is without spot or wrinkle, (not one that is dirtied up with the world and its ways.) is because his blood, not because you made yourself clean by your obedience. If you say it's because of your obedience, that is saying the blood of Christ is not able to wash our sins, our performance can, that to me is heresy.


If you read Romans 11:20 with regards to Romans 11:22, the point being made here is not to be arrogant into thinking you're the main branch as Israel was chosen before you came into the picture.
Consider than the kindness of God. The word kindness here is Grace. If you push God's kindness or Grace aside, you think you are the one who deserve the chosen branch place, that is where you will be in danger of being cut off. Read the context, not talking about your obedience to any commandment here.

1 John 2:15, I've explained to you before..the context here is because the Love of the Father is not being received, hence why people end up loving the world. Again why this happen? Simple, because you preach the Law instead of the Father's love. Read the context.

Galatians 1:6-7, Any Gospel other than the Gospel of God's Grace. Read Acts 20:24 .


Romans 8:1 (KJV), Sure, walking after the spirit. What is the objective of walking after the spirit? The Fruits of the HS right? Guess what? You can't produce the fruits by your obedience because the fruits are divine in origin, not Man origin.

Romans 8:30, Erm you say not necessary glorified but the verse does say there the one God calls...in the end also glorify.

The whole point of Romans 8 is expounded in the last portion of the passage, talking about nothing can cause God to stop loving us, that would include our shortcomings..ie: disobedience. In there lies our security. I don't see what form of condition is mentioned in Romans 8.


Previously I've also debunked on what you use the word "overcome".

1 John 5:5 (NIV) - Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. <---- Again pointing to Faith, apart from performance to the Law.

Previously I've also explained to you that "willful sinning" here is referring to Jewish believers going back to Temple sacrifice. It is not referring to your willful disobedience. Also do read up, what other Christians in here also concluded the same.

The rest of the verses..nothing much to discuss because all these hangs on as what I've said all the while...looking to Christ in Faith, you propagate something that dismantle Faith..that is the essence of the danger if falling away. Law and Grace is antithesis to each other. The Law is not based on Faith, read Galatians 3:12.

As I've said before, I can dismantle whatever verses that you throw but I see it's no point, you're not reading it, and because you don't, neither will I give heed to what you write because to me it's errornous.

Sure, We both can accuse each other of being wrong, but I take peace in knowing God by his Grace so far has been with me and answers my prayers according to what He has taught me and it was just yesterday brother. So how can I be wrong? God would not answer a heretic, would He?


Consider the following verse

How come God calls the 10 commandments..a ministry of death? ( 2 Corinthians 3:7 ) and the strength of sin is the Law? (1 Corinthians 15:56)... If truly the law is applicable in this dispensation?
If you think it's applicable, you are propagating DEATH and increasing the strength of Sin!

Sorry Bro, but I see revelation in God's word, the law is not for the believer in this dispensation!


------------------------------------------------------

P.S: Oh yeah about expelling that immoral brother out of the Church. What does 1 Corinthians 5:5 tells you?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 26 2018, 11:27 AM

ah word of faith

Not really, Word of Faith movement propagate Jesus died spiritually, something I don't agree.

Subscribers to Prosperity Gospels always focus on certain passages or verses to support their arguments.

There is no such thing as prosperity gospel but there is prosperity in the Gospel.

Let me ask you a question since previously you said I don't know scripture..

And I'm quoting the whole chapter here.

Mark 10:17-29

The Rich and the Kingdom of God

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’d ”

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it ise to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

28Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”


Look at verse 29 and 30.

Help me to understand what jesus is saying.

29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

In verse 29, it talks about leaving home, brothers, sisters, mothers, Father or children or fields for the sake of the gospel. and in verse 30.

It talks about receiving back 100 times of the same matter: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields. And the key phrase here used is : IN THIS PRESENT AGE, meaning now not in Heaven.

What is receiving 100 times or 100 fold of "Homes, mother, FIELDS, etc? Isn't that God prospering the believer? Prosperity from Bible definition to me means to "Thrive" from previous state. It's not talking about receiving 100 new houses or fields, isn't it? but what is 100 fold Home or Field? If you say it's spiritual prosperity, how is it applicable to Fields?

Would appreciate your answer.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 26 2018, 11:23 AM

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:19‭-‬31 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/heb.10.19-31.ESV

with persecution.


lol unknown warriors


what persecution means ?

Butchering Exposed

I’d rather not make you wonder if I was being fair by paraphrasing these health and wealth preachers.  So I figured I’d let them speak for themselves, thus revealing their butchering ways totally on their own.

So, without further ado and in no particular order, here are some examples of the butchering Mark 10.29-30 by prosperity gospel preachers:

Robert Tilton (AKA the Farting Preacher):  Tilton cites Mark 10.30 and builds a principle on it called “God’s Law of Compensation,” which he writes about in God’s Laws of Success.  He says that God set this principle in motion back in the book of Genesis with Abraham and this “Law of Compensation” is “here in the earth” (page 142).  In other words, God will give back to us here on earth what we give him, and then some.  He has to.  It’s a law after all!

Kenneth Copeland (AKA the Godfather of the Prosperity Gospel): Copeland wrote a book entitled Laws of Prosperity.  In it he constantly refers to Mark 10:30 and its supposed hundredfold promised return on investment.  And on page 58 he says this: “Do you want a hundredfold return on your money? Give and let God multiply it back to you. No bank in the world offers this kind of return! Praise the Lord!”  Do you see that?  He guarantees that if you give, then you’ll get back 100 times what you gave!  That’s crazy!

Paula White: White is in same boat with Tilton and Copeland.  However, she at least admits that there’s something funny in Mark 10.30, namely the word “persecution.”  Here are her words describing what this persecution means:

Nobody said it would come easy. In fact, in Mark 10:28, Peter said, “We have left all.” And Jesus answered, “There is nothing you have left, not houses, not brothers, not sister, that you will not have a hundredfold return and eternal life in this life, with persecution.” That’ s the problem. God said, “You’re going to get it, but it’s going to come with persecution.” The enemy doesn’t want you to walk in it. That’s okay. Who cares about the giants in the land? Just go forth in grace. Go for your stuff. Go for your anointing. Go for your family. Go for your increase. Go for your supernatural abundance. [SOURCE]

So the persecution that Jesus promised would come is simply the enemy, AKA the devil, wanting us not to walk in God’s blessings.  What does that mean?  God will bless us with “stuff” and “increase” but the devil’s job is to prevent us from enjoying it?  Instead of letting the devil do that, White wants us to go for what’s ours.  That sounds pretty selfish to me.

Joyce Meyer: Meyer says that she wants us to know that “God wants us to manage our resources, not the other way around.”  I can get behind that.  Let’s see what managing our resources look like according to Meyer?  Well, she gives some pretty good advice, like work hard and save your money.  But then she also draws on the same idea that there’s some sort of a law forcing God’s hand when you give:

Whatever you give up now will come back to you one-hundred-fold in this lifetime (see Mark 10:29-30). If you want to have an abundant life, then I encourage you to ask God to help you live generously. [SOURCE]

So two things: 1) It looks like she ignores the persecution part of Mark 10.30 altogether.  Instead she focuses on the hundredfold blessing that is activated by giving and is repaid financially.  2) She seems to be encouraging people’s natural propensity for wanting more and more and more — “If you want to have the abundant life…”  Who doesn’t?  Meyer is simply picking the low-hanging fruit of human sinfulness here.

Creflo Dollar (AKA The $60 Million Dollar Jet Man): According to the hundredfold math, I wonder what Dollar gave in order to think he was going to get that jet.  Let’s see, $60 million divided by 100 equals…$600 thousand.  Now if there were investments this successful, then we’d all be living it up like Scrooge McDuck!  (Did he actually live it up?  I don’t remember…)  In a study note entitled “The Law that Governs Abundance,” Dollar claims that in order to live the abundant life we must obey God.  Obeying connects us to God’s blessings and disobedience does the opposite.  He ends this particular study note with these two lines:

It is okay to have riches, but we should never trust in them (Psalm 52:7).

Anything we give up for Jesus will be returned to us a hundredfold in this lifetime (Mark 10:29, 30).   [SOURCE]

So being rich if fine but don’t trust in it.  But just in case you need to be tempted to trust in riches, give up lots of stuff for Jesus so that it will be returned to you times 100.  Then you’ll find out first hand if it’s hard to never trust in riches!  Again, notice that there’s no mention of the persecution in Mark 10.30.

 

After looking at each example of butchering of Mark 10:30, what do we see?  What do each of these readings have in common?

Well, giving apparently forces God to multiply what we gave up for him by 100.  It appears that he must do it!  And apparently we all should be seeking after the abundant life, meaning a life full of stuff and increase.  And the way to get there, to that abundant life, is to manipulate God by taking advantage of his law of compensation.

Ugh.  All this butchering makes me want to explore the text from Mark 10 myself.

 

Hopefully Not Butchering the Bible

So the five preachers that I pointed out above put their thoughts about things out there.  So I guess I should do the same.  Whether or not I’m guilty of butchering the Bible too is up to you to decide!

Here we go.

What is the context of Mark 10.29-30.  Well, it appears in a larger section in which Jesus was teaching.  At the beginning of chapter 10 he’s teaching about divorce (such an easy topic these days!).  And, as he’s teaching, people are bringing him their children.  Even though the disciples are annoyed by this, Jesus welcomes it, even saying that folks must receive the kingdom of God like a child in order to enter it.

After chillin’ with the kiddos for a bit, Jesus starts on his way, presumably to leave, when a man runs up, falls on his knees before Jesus, and begins a conversation.  He asks “What do I have to do to really live, to have eternal life?”  Jesus tells him that he needs to keep the commands from the Old Testament.  The man says he’s done so since he was a child.

Then Jesus looked at him and loved him.  I love that line.  What would it have meant for this man to be loved in this way?  And then think about what Jesus is about to ask of this man!  Jesus asks something hard, but does so in love.

And what is that hard thing that Jesus asks of this man?  It’s simply this: Sell all your stuff, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow me.

The man got really sad and left.  It should be noted that we don’t know what he actually did next.  Did this man go back to his previous way of life?  Or did he actually sell it all in obedience to Jesus?  We don’t know!

Whatever the case, Jesus uses this interaction as a teaching moment for his disciples.  He says to them “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

Now we should pause here for a moment.  This idea flies in the face of a lot of what we read earlier by the health and wealth preachers.  If it’s hard to enter the kingdom for the rich, why would we follow the advice of the prosperity preachers by giving in faith so that we can get 100 times back?  Would all that money make it harder for us to follow God well?

In any case, Jesus continues.  He says again how entering the kingdom of God is hard and follows that up with this doozy: “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Wow!  Again, why would I want to pursue being rich if it might prevent me from living under the rule of God?  I’ll take not-rich instead!

The disciples are shocked and wonder among themselves who could be saved then if the rich can’t.  Jesus answers by saying that what seems impossible to us humans, is no big deal to God.  All things are possible for God.

So the disciples are hearing all of this and they must be thinking that Jesus is calling them to sacrifice more, which seems a bit unfair.  So Peter says, paraphrasing, “Jesus, no thanks. We’ve left everything to follow you.  What’s in it for us?”

Jesus’ answer is perfect:

“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.” (Mark 10.29-30)

So within the larger story, these two verses begin to make more sense.  The disciples have literally left their families behind for the sake of following Jesus and they’ve left the land where they grew food for their families.  Now what?  Jesus must surely be aware that they’re feeling this way, because this is exactly where he goes.

So those who have lost relationships and property will receive one hundred times what they have lost.  How?  How does this work?  We know for a fact that the disciples didn’t receive 100 times what they gave up. They all died horrifically, while being more or less impoverished.    This can’t be a literal a literal tit-for-(100)-tats, or we would have known about it.  There’d be stories of Thomas living it up in India and Peter building a palace to rival Caesar’s in Rome.  But we don’t have stories like that.  Instead we have stories of faithful men dying for their faith.

So something else must be in play here — namely, community.  Jesus seems to be saying, at least the way I read it, that the relationships and security, which are sometimes given up as the cost of following Jesus, are expertly replaced by members of the community that God is creating.

But just in case anyone thought all of this shared community and security would bring peace of mind and assurance with it, Jesus tells his disciples that persecution is on the way.  This is no get-rich-quick scheme.  No!  Instead this is Jesus giving his closest followers a glimpse into the reality that they’ll be facing.

 

The picture Jesus paints here is nothing like that which is drawn by the health and wealth gospel people.  Jesus seems to be saying this: Being rich can be a major hindrance to following Jesus.  So instead of pursuing that, let’s follow Jesus despite the cost, trusting that he’ll take care of our needs for relationship and relative security.

There is no explicit formula in play here.  This isn’t a “give a seed offering of 100 dollars and watch God give you 10,000 bucks back!”  Quite the opposite.  What Jesus has in mind in this passage is a deep trust that whatever God wants to give us through the community he is creating is enough.  Nothing else is needed.

 

Yeah sure, but you don't see me propagating give money and you'll get 100 fold return money. So we are not talking about this.

As for his last point...the writer said...the way He sees it...it talks about 100 fold community. problem is what has mothers has to with getting back 100 fold community, look at the context, the person who left their mother will get back 100 fold mother. You're definitely not going to get 100 new mothers.

Sorry but I don't see that as being correct either. What in the world, has 100 fold Community has to do with Fields?

So what do you think?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 26 2018, 03:47 PM

Luke 22:42 : “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; however, not My will, but Yours be done.”

So by your definition, God decided to make the Lord Jesus to do that things He did. And that it is not His will that He is doing. It is the Father's will for His Will to ask to remove the cup. Then, the Father decided to make Jesus er er .... align his will to His will a while later.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ oklah .... be whatever you like best.

.... Then be the person that people pay close attention to then ... Be the person with having a deep impression on others ... Be the spiritual man that you believe to be ....


Go forth! You have my blessing



<lurks back>

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jan 26 2018, 06:11 PM

Keep Calm Bro............Not pretending, I'm not your enemy for real...just curious why the need for such aggressiveness...I mean we can all discuss, have heated debate or if you want to attack, at least attack on the points...not the person.

Question: I have some very good friends involved with the wealth, health gospel. They are told the following:

Prosperity, health and success is part of the gospel. When Jesus died, He died to redeem us from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13). One of the curses of the fall of Adam was poverty (Genesis 3:17-19), sickness and disease. Under the Old Testament Mosaic law, poverty and sickness was a curse for breaking the law (see Deuteronomy 28:17-18). When Jesus died, He set us free from this curse. Through the gospel of Jesus Christ we are thus free from poverty and sickness just as we are free from sin. Through the gospel, we have restored fellowship with God, and this includes access to the abundant provision of our Father in heaven. The gospel is therefore about freedom from lack, sickness and distress just as much as it is about freedom from sin. Sin is the root cause of all these problems, and when Jesus took care of sin on the cross of Calvary, He took care of these problems too. Because salvation from lack and sickness is as much a part of the gospel as salvation from sin, it is right to preach it as part of the gospel.

What can one say to all this?

Response: Let me begin with a consideration of the points your friends (or really those influencing your friends) are making here.

1) "prosperity, health and success is part of the gospel".

No, not at all. The gospel is very clear. It is eternal life available for all through faith in Jesus Christ (cf. Rom.1). Yes there will be blessings unimaginable in the world to come, but nowhere in the Bible do I find Jesus promising us "prosperity, health and success". Compare: "In this world, you will have tribulation" (Jn.16:33). In this same verse, Jesus promises us peace, but that does not mean material wealth as a given.

2) "When Jesus died, He died to redeem us from the curse of the law (Galations 3:13). One of the curses of the fall of Adam was poverty (Genesis 3:17-19), sickness and disease. Under the Old Testament Mosaic law, poverty and sickness was a curse for breaking the law (see Deuteronomy 28:17-18). When Jesus died, He set us free from this curse. Through the gospel of Jesus Christ we are thus free from poverty and sickness just as we are free from sin."

This is, even at first blush, an extremely tendentious and convoluted argument. It is very doubtful to me that anyone would accept it at face value who hadn't already accepted the teaching it is supposed to advance (and it is a characteristic of cults to supply arguments for their beliefs after the fact rather than seeking truth from scripture). The reasoning here seems to be that since we are free from the Mosaic Law, that therefore we get wealth and health. Following this logic, Paul, who is the one who tells us this the most clearly in the New Testament would never have been sick (he was, of course: Gal.4:12-15), and should have been one of the wealthiest Christians in history (whereas in fact he had to make tents at night to support himself and his ministry: cf. 1Thes.2:9). But none of this chain of argument makes sense. Adam's curse (not a part of the "Law" which it predates by several thousand years) is to have to work for a living, and that will continue to be the case until the end of this present world (until the paradise of the new heavens and new earth at the end of the Millennium). As to the Deuteronomy passage, there is a punishment of poverty upon godlessness and rebellion against God - that is indeed still true today. But that does not mean that those who are not in rebellion against God will experience wealth and exceptional prosperity - we are told to be content as long as we have food and clothing (1Tim.6:8), hardly the standard envisioned by this "ministry" influencing your friends. We are indeed liberated from sin by faith in Jesus Christ, but we are still in this world. Jesus did not ask for us to be taken out of this world (Jn.17:15-19) - we have been left in it to serve Him, and to show the world that we have faith in Him regardless of the pressures and abuses that the world heaps upon us, and regardless of material privation (which Christians are indeed called upon to suffer from time to time: cf. Heb.11:37-38; 1Pet.4:12-19).

3) "Through the gospel, we have restored fellowship with God, and this includes access to the abundant provision of our Father in heaven."

This is true, as far as it goes, but what is that abundant provision? We are here to serve Jesus, and, to that end, we do have certain needs, food and clothing, shelter, the means to do the ministries to which we have been called. But do we need a Mercedes Benz? Do we need a ski- chalet in the mountains? Do we need a reserve of several millions in T-Bills? etc.??? Solomon's sayings of Agur are pertinent here:

Give me neither poverty or riches, but give me only my daily bread. Otherwise I may have too much and disown you and say, "who is the Lord", or I may become poor and steal and so dishonor the name of my God.
Proverbs 30:8-9 NIV

Apropos of this, Jesus commanded us to pray for our "daily bread" - not for vast quantities of riches stored up for years to come, but only to have enough for the day at hand (cf. Lk.12:16-21). We are not to worry, not to look far into the future as regards to God's provision, but take this life one day at a time, ever trusting our God to provide the essentials we need to survive in this world and serve Him (Matt.6:25-34). Our treasures, our true treasures, do not consist of the dust of this world which will not endure (cf. Jas.1:9-11), but rather our true treasures are the Word of God and the power of the Spirit and the opportunity to serve the Body of Christ - all of which work out an eternal weight of glory which is not to be compared to the paltry material stuff of this terrible and un-fulfilling world (Matt.6:19-21; 2Cor.4:17). In short, the true treasures of the believer are all spiritual, and the material blessings we have from God are only of any enduring worth to the extent that they are needed to support our spiritual growth and our Christian service and ministry, for it is upon these two pillars that our eternal rewards rest.

4) "The gospel is therefore about freedom from lack, sickness and distress just as much as it is about freedom from sin. Sin is the root cause of all these problems, and then Jesus took care of sin on the cross of Calvary, He took care of these problems too. Because salvation from lack and sickness is as much a part of the gospel as salvation from sin, it is right to preach it as part of the gospel."

Jesus has redeemed us from sin. Otherwise, we could not have eternal life. Sin, Adam's sin which is passed to each of us by physical birth and which inhabits our mortal bodies (Rom.5-7), is indeed at the root of all mankind's problems. These problems are not, however, being completely resolved at this present time in this flawed world in which we live. There is still sin here, still evil, still corruption. Not until the day of eternity will these problems be solved in material terms - as believers we still have a "sin nature" (lit., "sin indwelling" the body": Rom.7:17). We have indeed been set free from sin spiritually speaking, but it is most peculiar that prosperity gospel adherents wish to see this spiritual deliverance in predominantly material terms.

I suppose it could be argued that, well, what is wrong with Christians having health and material success? To which I reply, not necessarily anything, in and of itself. But we should remember that all the great believers of the Bible had much tribulation and testing in this world - and very few of them were "rich". Abraham was very wealthy, it is true, but he was also called upon to face testing that few of us can even imagine (the sacrifice of long-awaited son Isaac being the most dramatic). None of the apostles were rich. All underwent incredible testing, suffering, and, in at least Paul's case, dire health problems and extreme testing in the area of material privation (cf. 2Cor.12:7-10; and 2Tim.4:13 with v.16). This principle is most obvious in the case of our Lord Himself, who, throughout His three and one half year ministry, walked throughout the land without even possessing a home to which He might return (Lk.9:58), and was supported by others at a very basic level at all times (we would be tempted to call this "poverty": Mk.15:41). Indeed, we have it from scripture that our Lord's coming into this world was a matter of Him "making Himself poor" that we might become rich - not in the material things of this world which are but dust and will not endure - but rich in spirit and in the Spirit, in salvation, and in knowledge of Him, in faith (Jas.2:5), in good works (1Tim.6:18), and in eternal rewards (2Cor.8:9). There are no greater riches than these true "riches of Christ" (Eph.3:8), and it is these spiritual riches which we ought to esteem, for "where your riches are, there will your heart also be" (Matt.6:21). Rather, then, than seeking personal wealth, should we not instead have the same attitude that Jesus had, that Paul had: "poor, yet making many rich [spiritually]; having nothing, yet possessing everying [in Christ]" (2Cor.6:10)?

Wealth is, in fact, not a spiritually neutral thing. From the spiritual perspective, it may bring great risks that those who are not rich never encounter (cf. 1Tim.6:6-10). It is harder for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven because they have a tendency to look to their wealth as the basis of their security and so are not as inclined to look to God and to trust Him (Mk.10:25 cf. Lk.6:24; 12:20).

The Bible has much to say on the subject of wealth (almost exclusively in the form of warnings against the dangers inherent in possessing them), and it is speaks volumes that the prosperity gospel people never want to look at the Bible as a whole, but only at certain select passages that serve their purpose. One passage will have to suffice here which should be sufficient to make the issues clear:

(7) We have brought nothing into this world – and are not able to take anything out of it. (8) So if we have daily sustenance and coverings for our bodies, we will be content with these. (9) Those who want to get rich fall into temptations, traps, and many senseless and harmful lusts – the kind which swamp men['s hearts] to their destruction and damnation. (10) For the love of money is a root [cause] of all evils – [and it is] in the pursuit of which [love of money that] some have wandered away from the faith (i.e., become apostates) and have pierced themselves through with many pains.
1st Timothy 6:7-10

This passage makes clear both of the main points against the prosperity gospel mentioned above:

1) as Christians, we are not of this world and the things of this world are not to be our focus (so that material prosperity cannot be part of the gospel);

2) setting one's sights on riches can be disastrous, even to the point of compromising one's salvation (so that the prosperity gospel isn't just wrong, it's terribly dangerous).

I believe it is not too much to say that promising people wealth and health as a part of the gospel violates the entire message of the Bible, for Christ told us that we should "count the cost" of following Him (Lk.14:28). True discipleship is not a road of ease and material abundance, but a challenging road that requires many sacrifices, picking us our cross in emulation of Him, no matter what the consequences. Hardly the tone and flavor of the prosperity gospel.

One last thought here. In my experience and observation, it is generally those who are preaching the prosperity gospel who end up getting the "prosperity" - not the sheep they are fleecing.

https://ichthys.com/mail-Prosperity%20Gospel%20again.htm

By the way UW, how do you make sense of below chart?

Referring to your highlighted in RED section.

You gotta be joking if you don't think the LAW applies to us!

I'll just take 2 commandments :

"Thou shalt not kill."
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."

Tell me, if it wasn't right to murder in the time of Moses, is it perfectly okay to kill people now?

But it's okay to do it, because the Blood covers everything & God only sees Jesus when we sin?

Or you can run around behind your wife's back(not accusing you mate, just giving an e.g.) with other women, because the Blood covers everything anyway?

You would obviously answer no, right, that Christians shouldn't murder & fornicate?

So doesn't that mean you are being obedient?! And are you not still keeping the law?

So what has changed? The only difference is that we no longer sacrifice animals under this dispensation.

We still have to obey God's commandments.

Your understanding of commandment is severely limited to "LOVE" only. Love is the only commandment in your books. That is incorrect!

Disclaimer: Of course it's natural that even if you keep the LAW, but don't believe in the Gospel, it's pointless. It would be in vain. That's why only God can Save.

He still offered to save us in spite of mankind's terrible sinfulness. We don't deserve it! That, to me is the definition of unmerited favour. He doesn't have to, but he wants to!

Nothing to do with OSAS, which is our point of contention.


UW, i'm very curious as to how you witness to people.

If you do not present and make them aware of the LAW in the 1st place, how do you expect them to accept GRACE?

You're only presenting a one sided Gospel.

They don't see carrying their cross, or dying to self daily, or "be Holy for i'm Holy"after coming to Christ, because of Once Saved, Always Saved.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" - Romans 6:1

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means!" - Romans 6:15 "Or God forbid"

If i'm not mistaken, even you yourself quoted the above verse. And they don't appear as obedience to you?







You simply don't deal with the scriptures as you continue to not address my citation of Rom 8: and Gal 1:6 which appear to totally contradict your view.

And then you go all over the place & quote me Romans 11.

Respectfully, when I offer a counterpoint to your view but you don't address it, how does repeating what you already wrote suffice as an answer?

1. Is a person who meets the criteria specified in Rom 8:30 sealed?

2. Were the believers in Gal 1:6 whom Paul referred to as called, still sealed despite them turning away from the true gospel to follow other gospels?

These two verses alone, undermine your view that a believer is sealed until redemption.

If you still think they are, then please explain.



The difference in our interpretation of Rom 8 is that you think the warning passages in Rom 8 are written to unbelievers so that Paul is writing to a mixed audience -

those who are saved and sealed; and those who are not saved and sealed.

The problem is no where that I'm aware in the NT does Paul address his comments to non-Christians.

His letters were specifically addressed to the saints in the churches; never unbelievers.



In spite of that, even if I adopted your perspective your interpretation of, let's say 8:13, would still not make sense for it would read according to your view:

"For if you [unbelievers] live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you [believers] put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. - Rom 8:13

Sounds stupid doesn't it?

First off, it is impossible for unbelievers to not live according to the flesh, therefore it would be ridiculous for Paul to write such a statement.

He would never employ the word "if." Unbelievers can ONLY live according to the flesh - so it is not even a matter of IF.

If Paul were referencing unbelievers, he would have instead used the word "since" but such is not the case so your interpretation clearly does not fit the text.

One has to account for all of the scriptures in forming one's view. So I'll ask again - Is a person who meets the criteria specified in Rom 8:30 sealed? Yes or no?

If you answer yes then you would have to agree that being called means an unbreakable seal.

That's why I led you to Gal 1:6 where despite being called, the Galatian believers turned to follow other gospels.







I have been attempting to point out the fundamental flaw in your view but you either don't understand it or you overlook it. Correct me if I'm wrong but you believe:

1. Christians are sealed until redemption.

2. Christians sin and stumble.

The logical conclusion of your premises is that no matter how little or how much Christians sin, they are still saved because they are sealed.

If you claim that there is a limit to sinning if one is to inherit salvation then you have to admit that a Christian is not sealed until redemption, as too much sinning disqualifies one from eternal life.

Your only other option is to claim that such people were never saved in the first place.

In other words, they was never predestined, called and justified and subsequently won't be glorified according to Rom 8:30. To be called is to be sealed.

However as I pointed out earlier Gal 1:6 states that people can be "called" but still fail to persevere and sin by turning to another gospel according to Paul.

Your view contradicts with Paul's own testimony that demonstrates that a person who is called and sealed can still abandon the gospel to follow another gospel.

So have to somehow reconcile this with your view.











Errmmm, yesterday i said Rom 8 is very, very interesting. Here's why :

Paul states "IF" you are led by the Spirit which makes this a conditional statement meaning the possibility of believers not being led by the Spirit.

So therefore while it is certainly true that when one is regenerated, one is indwelt by the Spirit, it does not automatically entail that one will "follow" or be "led by the Spirit".

Paul says clearly before we even get to verse 12 and 13 that if the Spirit of God dwells in you you are not in the flesh and what he is going to say in verse 12 and 13 does not apply to a person indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

“So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”



Paul’s warning is a sombre one as these verses describe the potential death of born-again believers, referred to as the BROTHERS/BRETHREN.

If this death were not a real possibility, the warning would be nonsensical

We also know that this warning pertains to spiritual death – not physical death – because everyone dies physically irrespective of how we live our lives.

Moreover, one must have spiritual life in order to be in danger of spiritual death.

You cannot threaten a spiritually dead person with spiritual death! Such a person is already dead.

Therefore, it must be concluded that these are regenerate brethren who are being warned of dying.

Also note that this verse is conditional – not unconditional – as indicated by the word “if.” IF believers walk according to the flesh = they will die.

IF believers walk according to the Spirit = they will live. Simple as that.

Verse 13 CANNOT BE SAID to apply to unbelievers because only believers have the choice as to whether to walk according to the Spirit or according to the flesh.

Unregenerate persons have no such choice; are incapable of walking according to the Spirit and can only walk according to the flesh - there is no "if" involved.

Thus, it stands to reason that Paul’s warning of spiritual death; i.e. eternal separation from God is exclusively directed to Christians who live in rebellion and knowingly engage in habitual sin.

Finally, Rom 8:25-39 actually states the opposite of what you believe.

It is true that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. But what does "nothing" refer to?

The verse itself defines nothing as "tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword."

Nothing does not include ongoing unrepentant habitual sin which does separate us from the love of Christ.

To include sin in this verse is to read it into the verse something which it does not say!

We have assurance as long as our lives are generally characterized by living according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

"So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." - Rom 8:12-13











Next, you quoted Romans 11:20 & 11:22. And your point is?




The verses are just warning us Gentiles not to become arrogant, because we were grafted in, & because we are not Jews. It also warns of unbelief. So, yeah.
No countering points to obedience. It's talking about something else.

Likewise, i also quoted to you before that we are just grafted in & we can be "cut off" & "thrown into the fire".

"I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned." - John 15:5-6

See the word fruit there again? You think Christians who are not obedient to follow the promptings of the HS will bear any fruit?





Obedience + Belief in Christ amounts to something

Also, i never said the blood of Christ is not able to wash away our sins!

See? Putting words into my mouth again! Accusing me of works based salvation The meaning of the above verse is very, very clear to me.

As is also :



- 1st Corinthians 6:9-11

Take it however you will.







I am fully aware of the context of Hebrews 10:26-29 and its setting. It was talking to the new Messianic Jews about temple sacrifices, return to Judaism, etc.

The verses above, if taken in isolation, will scare the daylights out of people.

I apologize if i had erred in using these as an example, given that there are other more suitable verses in the Bible to prove my point.

Excerpt :

But do consider how many of today's believers behave in a way they know is sinful, and yet they go ahead and do what they feel like doing, anyway?

That's because they mistakenly think Divine grace covers intentional sin.

That is a huge misconception! Divine grace has made wonderful provision for unintentional sin. But there is no provision for intentional sin. The Bible tells us so.

Deliberate, premeditated sin is willful disobedience and rebellion against ELOHIM. It results in severe punishment or even loss of our salvation.



This verse is loaded with meaning in the Greek language. The root Greek word for “willfully” is ekousios which implies a willing choice without force. The Greek word for “sinning” is a present participle which has the idea of “continually sinning.” The Greek word for “knowledge” is an unusual Greek word implying not just “knowledge” but “full-knowledge.” The Greek word for “no longer” has a sense of “running out of time.”

If we put it all together this is the meaning of these two verses. If after a person has received full-knowledge about Jesus, and he or she still willingly, without force, continues sinning (no fear of God) – there is no sacrifice that can save him or her! Heb 10:26


-end-


I brought out the controversial Hebrews 10:26-29 verses simply because of :

1) Hebrews is written in the NT
2) It was written to Christian "believers"
3) It has a dual application. It applied to those back in the day, as well as serves as a warning to present age believers.

So decide for yourselves : http://cgi.org/once-saved-always-saved/









This is not hard to understand! If you don't Love the Father, obviously you love the world more. How do you show your love to the Father? You must be obedient!You follow & do what he says. There must be ACTION on our part.

Just by saying "I believe in Jesus. I believe he is God in the flesh. I believe he died for my sins.", but not follow what he says, means by default you prefer the world.

A Christian who says he believes in Jesus, but prefers to live like the world (drunkardness, pre-marital sex, watch porn, get high on weed, etc) LOVES the world more than JESUS.


"Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, - 1 John 2:4





Til now you still don't understand that LAW & GRACE go hand in hand. You only ever really understand the concept of Salvation is simple (which is true).

I've read a lot of your devotionals & it gives me the impression that you have a phobia against the LAW.

You're so terrified of the LAW that you think people who obey the LAW are self-righteous & thus are works-based, which is not true!

As Christians we show our faith by our works. (this one i know you agree)

It is a manifestation of our love for Him.

Keeping God’s commandments and doing right are merely the result of His Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. (your definition of commandments differs from mine)

These are the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

We do these things not to be saved, but because we are saved. (this one i'm sure you agree too)

As long as we love the Lord with all of our heart, we are going to be obedient to Him and cling to Him.

He will not let go of us unless we cast Him away through our continued sin and indifference and willful disobedience (OSAS will do that!).






Since you quoted John, I shall do the same :

1st John 3:7-8 directly answers your question due to the fact that we still maintain our own volition to choose whether to live a sanctified life or to practice a sinful life.

"Little children, LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU. Whoever PRACTICES righteousness is RIGHTEOUS, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a PRACTICE OF SINNING is of the DEVIL, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning." - 1st J 378

If a child of God PRACTICES righteousness, lives a sanctified life; he or she is righteous and remains a child of God.

If a child of God chooses to practice sinning, then he or she is of the Devil.

So it is obvious that how Christians choose to live their lives - in obedience or rebellion determines their salvific state.

Even a die-hard Calvinist would give you the same answer as mine - because believers must persevere.

Those who persevere prove that they were called.

The book of Revelation is replete with warnings to the 7 churches warning that the saints must persevere and if they do, they are the overcomers (your definition also differs from mine!) who are dressed in white for they have washed their garments.

You know, it's very funny that the impression i get from you is, if i do something good, say help a nenek across the street, it is not I who did it, but the indwelling HS through me.

So who do you attribute these actions to? We're not robots you know! You do get rewards at the BEMA SEAT.

So that is the fruit of the HS. I on the other hand still believe very much in free will, even after coming to Saving Grace.








Regarding works (out of topic a little, but still connected nonetheless )

Can you point to me in all of Scripture whether in the OT or the NT, where God condemns works done out of obedience to God?

The answer as you well know is - there is NONE.

So may I ask why do you condemn works?

Titus 2:14 declares: "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are ZEALOUS for good works."

Ephesians 2:10 states that we were CREATED to do good works.

I believe the error in you argument is you that you fail to distinguish between good works done out of obedience to God and works done in our own flesh.

The former is approved of while the latter is always condemned.

Be careful how you use your terms. Obedience on our part is requisite for salvation for Heb 5:9 states: "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him."

While other scriptures mandate belief note that this verse doesn't say "believe him;" it says "obey him."

Therefore belief and obedience are necessary for salvation. I believe in Jesus but I also pay attention to my own walk as well. I trust you do the same. That's why you said he answered your prayers just yesterday. You're probably very obedient & not even realizing it!

Nobody is accusing you of being a heretic. You just understand doctrine wrong!

You equate obedience = believe

Part of the problem in our English translations is that the Greek verb tenses are not always accurately conveyed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt :

For example if you study the well-known John 3:16 verse, if you parse the verb translated as "believe" it is a present tense verb which signifies continuous action so the word pisteuo is actually "believing." So that everyone who is believing in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Most people read this as a one-time only moment of belief but the verse really refers to the necessity of ONGOING belief.

Just briefly; other food for thought - does being sealed by the Holy Spirit automatically mean that this seal is an unbreakable one? This is the premise in OSAS thinking but the few passages that refer to this do not explicitly state this, so therefore it has to be inferred.

In Eph 1:14-16 the word "arrabon" has been translated as guarantee, pledge, deposit, earnest, down payment toward our inheritance. An analogy to consider is that when one makes a down payment on a mortgage, that transaction shows that the person who gives the deposit/earnest money is demonstrating good faith that the full payment on the balance will eventually be fulfilled.

As we know not all people are faithful in paying off their mortgage. In the same way, not all believers are faithful to the end of their spiritual journey. That is why the Bible calls on every single believer without exception to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling; to fight the good fight and finish the race. Salvation is only promised to those who persevere and overcome. If salvation were a "done deal" these admonitions would be nonsensical.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indeed I agree with you that Jesus as our Redeemer has paid our debt on the cross.

However, redemption is not without conditions on our part.

We know that believe is one condition as well as repentance demonstrated as obedience to God.

If these conditions are not fulfilled then we have forfeited our part of the covenant.

Note how Paul described the gospel message he himself preached:

"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their DEEDS - Acts 26:20

Can see boh??!!

Since the Word does not contradict itself and we must take the whole counsel of Scripture into consideration.







Here are 5 examples from the OT & the NT :

1) Story of Esau

Read the story of Esau for yourself in Genesis 24:29-34.

He sold his inheritance or birthright (a Christian's inheritance is eternal life -Matthew 19-29) on his own free will for only a mess of pottage.

At the point of extreme hunger, the mess of pottage was worth more to Esau than his birthright.

Likewise, at a point of discouragement, weakness, or temptation in a Christian, the pleasure of sin may seem to be worth more to him than his inheritance, so he sells his inheritance for the fleshly desires of the present.

Excerpt :

Hebrews 12:15-17 calls Esau a FORNICATOR and a PROFANE person, "...who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright".

We, too, can sell the priceless gift of salvation and eternal life.

IF Esau was considered a profane (impure; defiled; unsanctified; and unholy) person for selling his birthright (a rightful inheritance given to him by birth. A Christian also has a rightful inheritance by birth into the family of God), how much more would we be considered PROFANE and UNHOLY for flirting with the world?

What does the Bible say about a fornicator? "...they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21; and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Revelation 21:8,27 tells us that these abominable people shall have their part in the LAKE OF FIRE.

Conclusion : not OSAS




2) Parable of the Talents

"Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt. 24: ? - ?

So much for eternal security if we don't do our part. I don't think loss of rewards is going to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Conclusion : not OSAS



3) Parable of the Sower (snippet*)

“Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have not root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” - Luke 8:12-13

See, it says “which for a while believe”.

So according to your doctrine, it’s not possible to become “unsaved”.

Then how come the rest of the verse says “fall away”? Or are you gonna justify it away, & say they were not really saved to begin with? So which is which now?

Conclusion : not OSAS



4) Rich Young Ruler

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

- Book of Matthew


Conclusion : Obedience is required










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Hi Sophiera

Someone said that IF we didn't have the promise of eternal life, that we would have to live in fear all the time, being afraid that we would lose our reward.

This is incorrect. As a child of God, I do not fear losing my salvation or eternal life, as long as (provided that) I keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight

"And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us." - 1st John 3:23

Besides, if I am living in sin, it may well be that the FEAR OF GOD would cause me to repent.

"So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man. " - Acts 24:16

"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! " - 2nd Cor 13:5

So we must always keep our conscience clear, otherwise, the feeling of guilt comes naturally.

We can doubt some times. We're human. If your conscience is clear though, you have nothing to be afraid of.



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Paul and Peter spell it out nicely...willful, unrepentant sin.

To sum it up, as Paul told the CHURCH in Galatia, do not be deceived. God will not be mocked.

If you sow to please the sinful nature you will, by that nature reap corruption.

There are many verses telling us, that God's wrath is coming on the....disobedient.

To truly believe, you must obey.

Belief isn't some technicality, it a matter of heart proven, as Paul said, by our deeds.

We all just want our guaranteed free ticket to heaven and then, no matter what sin we are in to, to be raptured up before any tribulations take place.






Do you actually hear yourself talk? I think there's really no point to cont our discussion further. You're arrogant.

You're of the opinion that you are here to TEACH. Not to LEARN.

And also partly because your reputation & credibility will be at stake in this fellowship, if your doctrine is somehow proven to be incorrect.

I've given soooooo many Bible verses that can't support OSAS & you pretend to overlook them.

True that in my zeal, i've probably mistakenly interpreted some verses in isolation. I'm no scholar.

BUT your teaching is bordering on an antinomianism gospel. Be careful!

While legalists are all law, OSASers and other Antinomians are No law!

As far as ‘Obedience’ is concerned, they view it as optional or only required when they feel “Led“.

Their excuse that they are “not under the law” usually takes care of any conviction for disobedience.

A.W. Tozer said: "Antinomianism is the doctrine of grace carried by uncorrected logic to the point of absurdity. It takes the teaching of justification by faith and twists it into deformity."

That amounts to antinomianism, which I don't think you subscribe to, but it is the logical end result of your view point.

http://www.bereanpublishers.com/the-antinomians-are-coming/







My parting words :

It is extremely simplistic to think that the God of the OT is a God of fear & judgement & anger. And the God of the NT, is a God of love. Bible says God is unchanging.

Teaching of the LAW causes people to repent. The LAW of God is to awaken the sleeping sinner.

If i believed in OSAS, i would sin like no tomorrow & hold God ransom because His hands are tied.He has to take me to Heaven after i die, no?

We weren’t given Salvation to just be a ticket to Heaven, as if it’s some form of fire insurance.

Why do you read your Bible? To glorify Christ.

Why do you pray? To glorify Christ.

Why are we to love our neighbour? To glorify Christ.

Why do we always try to do good? ? To glorify Christ.

Try to live honestly when no one is looking? To glorify Christ. So on & so forth. We need to dedicate our lives to Christ here.

Will the belief in ‘once saved, always saved” motivate us to live in pursuit of Holiness? No!

In fact quite the opposite. Human nature being as sinful as it is, will take advantage of Grace & Salvation for granted.

We will not fight temptation with all our might & exercise greater self-control with the OSAS mentality! We can’t just simply live our life.



“Work out our salvation with fear & trembling.” - Philippians 2:12

See? Self-control.

Why would we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if there was no risk of losing it? There would be nothing to fear if that was the case.


How about,

"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting (aionian) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:5-11

It’s very obvious that we have free will.


Does it still not appeal to your common sense UW, with verses like this??!!

Coupled with the many that i have posted in our previous exchanges, what more do i have to put in front of you??!!



“ Keep the commandments, and you shall live. “ that is the teaching of scripture. OT & NT.

Bottom line : Forsake habitual wilful sins. Yield to the Spirit. Live a righteous life. Be Obedient.


So I earnestly implore you not to teach a watered-down Gospel. You need to preach of the hard things that are also represented in the Bible.

Those who do not make Jesus the Lord of their lives and live for him, are not guaranteed to appear with him in glory.

You never explained how the Galatian believers who were called and sealed could turn away from the true gospel to follow another gospel, which clearly contradicts your view.

You can't ignore scriptures that contradict your belief.

You keep referring to proof texts(some) which you think supports your view, but I have attempted to show that they actually don't.

At this point, I will respectfully disagree as we can agree to disagree. Thanks for the opportunity to have corresponded with you.






"If ye love me, keep my commandments" - John 14:15