The same thing can be said of Holland who have yet to win the World Cup despite churning out so many talented individuals. As it is, England have not had a decent left-winger since John Barnes... this coming from a nation with rich history where football is the no.1 sport. It can't be that everyone born in England is right-footed. Even now you see the likes of Phil Neville filling in at right-back with Carragher having to play on the left. It says that England is devoid of talent doesn't it? Spain may not have won anything but there are no shortage of players coming through the ranks there.

Countries like Holland and Portugal produce alot more talent than England do as well but u don't see them winning the major tournaments.
It's a decent suggestion but does it ensure that by doing that the quality is improved and not just doing it for numbers....

As of this time now Spain are the U-17 world champs...and u look at the current generation of Spanish players...saying England produces just as much as Spain in terms of talent is just being ignorant.

It's a decent suggestion but does it ensure that by doing that the quality is improved and not just doing it for numbers....

England doesn't have any decent players who can play at the left side?? It's McLaren's fault who put Neville and Carragher at the left side, where as Leighton Baines, Matthew Taylor, Gareth Barry who can play at the left flank of England but were left out of the team..

Spain doesn't produce that plenty of left footed players either...Reyes, David Silva, Vicente, Pernia, Del Horno...who else?? They may have much more plenty options on the left winger side, but england outnumbered them on the left back side...

We are debating about the Rafa's proposition to have many competitive games for the reserves league right?? Why we have to debate about the youth development?? As for the academies players, i think they have plenty of competitive games to play, such as the Youth FA Cup, Youth regional league, Youth regional cups..

We can't simply revise the league structure for the sake of BIGGER clubs selfishly wishes to play their reserve team in the league...How to improve the reserve league overall quality?? It's all up to the gaffer and the players set their mind on how to approach each reserve game..do they willing to give their all for a friendly games where there is nothing at stake?? It's very hard to make the reserve league competitive coz most reserve teams in the PL comprises of 'reserve mati' players (who dun have the passion to play for the club anymore), lack of match fitness players (who maybe not willing to give their all coz they are afraid that they might get injured back) and some of the youth players who are included in the first team..

I'm sure you can also include a whole host of English left footed players plying their trade in the Championship. Question is "are they good enough"? Even if you play Baines, Taylor or Barry on the left flank, they are being played out of position and are just filling in for lack of a better option.

And the purpose of such a proposal is to ensure better development of the reserve players right? It is then related to youth development. Yes there are heaps of youth tournaments but they don't get to play against more seasoned veterans, hence the proposal for reserve teams to play in the league. Younger players then get the opportunity to play against hardened professionals at a competitive level. While I agree that this is perhaps not the best solution, it does have it's merits. It's all about ironing out the creases.

Why don't we just let those promising youngster out on loan to other smaller clubs..im sure that this smaller clubs would really appreciate this idea rather than forcing them to 'gulung tikar' coz of the selfish interest of bigger clubs..Not only this youngsters get more match experience but also they will learn how to mentally survive in a club that is fighting for survival or promotion..this will surely makes them a better player...some players who are not naturally gifted such as Frank Lampard has experience this with West Ham and this makes him works harder to become a BETTER player

England doesn't have any decent players who can play at the left side?? It's McLaren's fault who put Neville and Carragher at the left side, where as Leighton Baines, Matthew Taylor, Gareth Barry who can play at the left flank of England but were left out of the team..

Spain doesn't produce that plenty of left footed players either...Reyes, David Silva, Vicente, Pernia, Del Horno...who else?? They may have much more plenty options on the left winger side, but england outnumbered them on the left back side...

Portugal produces much more talents than England?? I'll doubt that..If they have plenty of young talents, why they still call up the likes of Figo, Pauleta, Costinha, Gomes, Valente into their squad?? The only youngsters that managed to get into the squad are Nani, Moutinho and Manuel Da Costa...where as England has Dawson, Downing, Lennon, Richards, Nugent waiting on the wings...

but how many of them gonna become WORLD CLASS players?? How many of them gonna be an END PRODUCT?? I may don't have much knowledge in Spanish football like you do but at the end of the day most of this talented youngsters will go to waste coz they don't have mental toughness which is needed in modern footballers nowadays..that WE can't develop for them...they must develop it themselves...for example Hugo Viana...last time, he's one of the most sought after talented youngter in Europe but look where he is right now?? Playing for Valencia's reserve team...

We are debating about the Rafa's proposition to have many competitive games for the reserves league right?? Why we have to debate about the youth development?? As for the academies players, i think they have plenty of competitive games to play, such as the Youth FA Cup, Youth regional league, Youth regional cups..

We can't simply revise the league structure for the sake of BIGGER clubs selfishly wishes to play their reserve team in the league...How to improve the reserve league overall quality?? It's all up to the gaffer and the players set their mind on how to approach each reserve game..do they willing to give their all for a friendly games where there is nothing at stake?? It's very hard to make the reserve league competitive coz most reserve teams in the PL comprises of 'reserve mati' players (who dun have the passion to play for the club anymore), lack of match fitness players (who maybe not willing to give their all coz they are afraid that they might get injured back) and some of the youth players who are included in the first team..

We are debating the HIDDEN AGENDA on why Rafa and Mourinho wanted the their reserves team wanna play in the same league like their first team..as for the youth academies, lack of competitive matches is not a problem as I've said before they are involved in various competitions..Those two gaffer doesn't want to play their expensively 'purchased' youngsters in the youth team coz it's not appropriate for them to play with younger lads..They wanted their 'purchased' youngsters to involved in a much more competitive league but there's nothing at stake..why just they send those promising youngsters to other smaller teams?? like Wenger did..it's maybe because they don't want to release their 'EXPENSIVE YOUNGSTERS' to other smaller clubs so they bring up this TOPIC

I'm baffled by this...what are England's options on the left wing? Joe Cole is right footed.  And Pernia, Del Horno and Antonio Lopez are Spain's current left backs. How many LBs do u need in a team?? Nice try pulling out "facts" out of your a**.

What does producing talent have to do with the senior national side? You need some experience in the national side...Besides Figo and Pauleta have retired...and i dunno about u but i would classify the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Quaresma as still young players. The players u named for England...how many of them are actually good enough in the international stage...so far only Lennon has impressed.
I agree with u that not all of them will be world class players but that ain't the issue here aint it.

We are talking about youngsters getting developed by playing quality opposition. How they turn out is a different issue.

And again Hugo Viana is a squad player in Valencia's first team...sure he may not have reached his potential but no 1 can doubt that he possesses good technique which is what u want to train into youngsters 1st.

We aren't talking about academies...we are talking about players who have come out of those academies and how they are continuing their development. As it is in England they play in the reserve leagues which some say isn't competitive enough. That's what this debate is about. That is the problem with the reserve system isnt it. I have since suggested that the English should continue doing what they have always done...send these players on loan and have a clause written to stipulate that these youngsters must play a minimum number of games or risk compensation. Duke Red is favouring a system similar to Spain's with some compromises.

I have no interest in Rafa's or Mourinho's intentions cause they are entitled to their opinion...but I would have liked for them to show more respect to the English culture
However your accusations that they don't want to release their youngsters is pretty absurd...they can always send them on loan as they have done so with some players already.

Wanna see my nice A**?? All the girls i've known have been complimenting my nice a**

As i've said, England produces plenty left backs and not plenty of left wingers where as Spain produces plenty wingers too but not plenty of left backs..Nowadays it's very hard to see any WORLD CLASS left sided players since Ginola, Giggs which can set the world alight...can u name me any WORLD CLASS left sided midfielders from Argentina and Brazil (two countries that never short of football talent)...In the last World Cup both countries have using Ronaldinho (right sided player) and Sorin (defender) as their left winger...

That's the point...you've been saying that Portugal is producing plenty talents than England where are they?? The only time Portugal produced plenty of talents are in the early 90's during the Golden Generation of Portugal..

Of course they needed to play against quality opposition..but how would you like to propose that??

Those techniques can be learn during training..you don't need to have competitive matches to learn those techniques..A good player is the one who can only make use the technique he learns during training coz even though you're good in training but if u can't repeat the same technique during a competitive match then u're useless like Malaysian players..I saw their training session many times (they were really good) but during the match day, not even one skill comes out..why?? They were sent to train in foreign countries, played competitive matches...but why they still suxx?? It's because they don't have the mental toughness when they were up and against superior team than them..

This is really a good idea..

The young players that they have signed such as Palleta, El Zhar, Ben Sahar, they are good enough to play for the lower division clubs but why they are still at the club?? Don't tell me that none of the clubs in the championship don't have any intentions to get them on loan..most of the clubs down there can't afford to buy players, why they don't go and try to get some of the youngsters on loan from the bigger clubs...

Ronaldinho is left sided although he is right footed...he's not a right sided player...don't confuse left sided with left footed...and isn't Messi left footed?

You say England produces alot of LB's but how many of them are really world class as u put it? Then i can also say every footballing country can produce alot of left backs...What's there to substantiate that England produces more leftbacks than Spain (or any country for that matter)?? I personally dunno where u get that from.

Aren't C Ronaldo, Quaresma, Moutinho, Miguel players u would consider good young talents who have proven themselves on the international stage? Why don't u tell me where England's talents are then?

I think some of them do...but most seem reluctant to gamble on youngsters...there's nothing more pissing off to me than a club getting a youngster on loan and then not playing him at all. This is why we are saying that the system needs to be improved.

The national team's troubles can be traced back to the formation of the Premier League and the resulting influx of foreign stars.

In June 1991, when the Football Association supported the plot by England's First Division clubs to break away from sharing money with those in the other three divisions, they promised it was to improve the England team. All in football knew the decision was really infested by politics: the big clubs were determined to keep the millions about to pour in from satellite television, while the FA wanted to smash the Football League to win a dreary administrative turf war of its own.

So the FA produced its Blueprint for the Future of Football, a flabby document obsessing about fans' disposable income, with one explosive recommendation at its core: that the top clubs should be allowed to have their separate Premier League.

"The prospects of success for the England Team would, at once, be enhanced," the blueprint proclaimed, although it never convincingly explained how.

The plan was that the First Division clubs would break free of the Football League and its century-old system of sharing money between large and small. The new Premier League would shrink to 18 clubs by 1996-97, allowing for fewer matches, fresher players and more time for international get-togethers. Improved, overhauled coaching would help power the England team to the top of the world.

English football's renaissance after Hillsborough had begun a year earlier, when England overcame a turgid start to gallop to the semi-final of the 1990 World Cup in Italy, ultimately, undeservedly, going out to Germany on penalties.

Fifteen years on from the formation of the Premier League the 20 clubs - slimmed from 22 but never as far as 18 - are triumphant; bank accounts poised to accept the first slug of next year's barely believable £2.7bn TV deal. Several chairmen-owners who agitated originally for the breakaway have made millions by selling out to businessmen queuing up for a share of the game's global media revenues. On the field Manchester United, Chelsea and Liverpool, all foreign-owned, crowd the last eight of the Champions League.

Yet internationally England have never matched that 1990 performance, achieved before the Premier League was formed supposedly to improve the team. The current players stumble about like strangers, denounced by a crowd scorning the money they make. For the superstars of the Premiership Andorra is a massive game.

The reasons for this are many, although we should not overstate the difference between the 1990 achievement and now: England reached the semi-final then only thanks to David Platt's injury-time volley against Belgium and two Gary Lineker penalties in the quarter final against Cameroon. In the two most recent major tournaments England have made it to the quarter-finals, only to go out on penalties. Perhaps a manager other than Steve McClaren would be wresting inspired, joined-up performances from today's team; perhaps not.

Last weekend Trevor Brooking, the FA's technical director, lamented that the English game lacks talent in depth, pointing out that, with no Ashley Cole, Wayne Bridge or Gary Neville, England had no recognised right- or left-back to play against Israel. He might also have noticed a hole where a creative midfielder ought to be, the lack - Stewart Downing apart - of a left-footed attacking midfield player and, with Michael Owen still injured, the absence of an internationally feared striker to play alongside the moody Wayne Rooney.

There is one clear reason for this shortage of players to choose from: the paucity of English footballers turning out at all in the Premiership. When the Premiership's "whole new ball game" kicked off in 1992-93, flush with the first TV deal, worth £305m, only 11 non-British players featured in all the clubs' starting line-ups. Of the first-choice players lining up for the four top clubs in the most recent Premiership matches a week and a half ago only 11 were English. Gary Neville, Rio Ferdinand, Michael Carrick and Rooney started Manchester United's 4-1 win over Bolton; John Terry, Ashley Cole, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Frank Lampard began Chelsea's 3-0 victory over Sheffield United; only Justin Hoyte started for Arsenal against Everton while in Liverpool's side that played Aston Villa only Jamie Carragher and Steven Gerrard were English.

After 1992, as the money grew, English clubs could pay to attract world stars; Jurgen Klinsmann, Gianfranco Zola and Juninho were among the first to fire the imagination and clubs began to compete to hunt overseas talent. Top players, such as Lampard, point out how much they have improved by playing alongside the world's greats but opportunities for the next generation of English players have become painfully limited. The link between the top division and the rest has been broken not only financially but in terms of players' careers. Those who came so close on the world stage in 1990 learned their craft gradually, gaining experience mostly in the lower divisions or even, as with Stuart Pearce and Chris Waddle, in non-league football. Now Premier League clubs rarely take a chance on players from the Football League while the non-leagues - the odd DJ Campbell aside - are another country.

Top managers, releasing dozens of players every year who have come through their academies, grapple with sporting and financial stakes so high that they cannot afford to "blood" young players in the way they used to. The money is there to buy ready-made stars, the scouting extends for the most promising youngsters all over the world, so only truly outstanding English players at 16 have a hope of breaking through at the top clubs - and even then, as Theo Walcott is finding, games are limited.

In 1997, flush with the commercial success that followed the Premier League's launch, Howard Wilkinson produced his Charter for Quality, overhauling youth football in favour of the big clubs. Now crowds of boys from as young as eight are signed into clubs' academies, taken out of the school and youth teams that traditionally drilled English talent. For years teachers and youth coaches complained that the trawl is too wide and the coaching too uncertain to justify it - quite apart from the fact that at the same time the clubs have gone shopping for foreign players and so drastically reduced first-team opportunities for their own young graduates. The Premier League waved these objections away, although its head of youth development, Dave Richardson, did admit more recently that the clubs were not sure how to recruit the right players, or coach them, so young.

Now, 10 years on, a review is under way, in which the clubs' argue that they should be allowed to enlist boys from further afield, at younger ages, and not be restricted to local English players.

Contrary to the disingenuous rhetoric about the England team which ushered it in, the Premier League has undermined, rather than boosted, the FA's authority. Clubs are consumed by their own ambitions, not England's, and a period of European domination appears within reach now of those cosmopolitan squads. The England team, stocked with the few homegrown players to come through, and managed by one of only a handful of Englishmen even remotely qualified, comes round as an occasional embarrassment, raising a few difficult questions, all to be comfortably forgotten when Saturday comes.

Humble origins

None of the players in the England team that reached the World Cup semi-final in 1990 spent his formative years at the biggest clubs:

Peter Shilton Began career at Leicester City, 1966-74, including two seasons in the Second Division

Paul Parker Played at Fulham in the Second and Third Divisions, 1982-87, before joining QPR in the First

Stuart Pearce Played his first five seasons for non-league Wealdstone before joining Coventry in 1983

Des Walker Spent the first nine years of his career with Nottingham Forest

Terry Butcher Made his England debut in 1980 while at Ipswich

Mark Wright Played for Oxford before joining First Division Southampton in 1982

David Platt Played his first three seasons for Crewe in the Fourth Division

Chris Waddle Played for Tow Law Town in the Northern League before Newcastle signed him in 1980

Paul Gascoigne Came through at Newcastle United in 1985, then struggling to stay in the First Division

Peter Beardsley Began league career at Carlisle in Third Division, 1979-82

Gary Lineker Made his first 214 appearances for Leicester, 1978-85

but traditionally any team that employ 4-4-2 system would prefer a left winger with a left foot..of course a player like Henry and Ronaldinho is a left sided player with a right foot but they do not normally stick in one area of the pitch..they were given a license to roam where ever they like...

It's just my from my current observation...even though i watched and followed the PL more than La Liga but it seems that PL clubs using more english left backs than LaLiga clubs using spanish bred leftbacks..plz correct me if im wrong

Miguel?? The Valencia right back?? Isn't he is more than 25 edi??..Even though C.Ronaldo is still young but i can't consider him as a young player coz he's played plenty of games edi for both clubs and country..even Steve McMahon said it b4..

As for Moutinho and Quaresma..only Quaresma started playing in the first 11 after Figo retired..why does Barca sold him at the first place?? For me, he's still not good enough coz he's quite selfish in his play and inconsistent..he doesn't live up to his true potential yet..Moutinho still needs more time to learn and i think it's very hard for him to break into the first eleven in the next few yrs (bcoz of Deco) unless he moved on to another club in another country..

As for England, i've seen Barry, Baines, Taylor have been consistent throughout the season and although i do not rate them as WORLD CLASS players but they still good enough to wear the England shirt..It's not easy to produce world class talent nowadays, so it's up to the player himself whether he wanted to be much more better than he is right now or just be content with his pay pocket right now..

Even though we gave this youngsters more competitive games, it's their attitude that counts the most..if they don't work hard then they will become flops like Jeffers and M.Bridges..only those who work hard such as Lampard, Zidane, Grosso, L.Toni who peaked late in their footballing careers can be WORLD CLASS

This i have to agree with you that the loan system needs some improvement..but i've to ask you that why a club tried so hard to get a young player on loan and fills up their precious 2 loan quota but didn't play the player?? there must be a reason ain it?? It's either the player impresses them during scouting mission but fail to live up to their expectations when the player come and train with them or the player just can't cope with physical demand of the game..

As you said before, normally a loanee wont return to their club..why?? They ain't good enough..For sure the managers who loaned their players to other clubs will keep track of their progress and see whether they have improved..If they do not improve though they played every competitive match for their loan club, of course they get sold

Yeah...and the only left footed winger in the current England squad is Downing...but that doesn't mean England are devoid of traditional left wingers
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Wenger loves Rafa's idea

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has welcomed Rafa Benitez's idea to have reserve teams playing in the Football League.

Benitez has called for the system, which is already in place in Spain, to be brought into the English game.

Chelsea chief Jose Mourinho has also shown support for the idea, with the chance to field the club's youngsters in the lower leagues.

Wenger has allowed the likes of Nicklas Bendtner, Alex Song and Fabrice Muamba to go out on loan to get regular first-team football.

But the Gunners boss would prefer to keep all his players together and believes the current system is failing.

"I would love it," Wenger told the club's official website.

"What used to happen is that you had a reserve league and an Under 18s league, which was very important.

"What has happened now is the Under 18s league has transferred to the reserve league while the Under 18s has lost a little.

"When you look at it these days, 90 per cent of the reserve games are played with Under 18 players so one may have to be cut off.

"We have many players who play on Saturday (for the Under 18s) and on Monday for the reserves.

"That means they play too many games and cannot practise."

Ridiculous. The other teams in the lower leagues have just as much history as most of the clubs in the premier league. To suggest that the top team reserves play in them is just down right disrespectful. How is it disrespectful? You have a 72 club system going on and suddenly young players who are probably not going to make the cut in the top teams are going to come in and start playing against you? Reducing the amount of clubs in a certain tier? So all the top 20 clubs in the premier league? That makes what, 20 extra "clubs" that have to join the lower leagues?

Rafa should know this isn't Spain, he needs to learn respect.

Yeah...and the only left footed winger in the current England squad is Downing...but that doesn't mean England are devoid of traditional left wingers

About 15 out of the 20 La Liga teams are using Spanish LBs...you only got that impression because you are comparing the top sides: Barca, Real and Sevilla to all the EPL clubs. Again..apples and oranges. How many top class English LB's do the top 4 EPL sides have? Ashley Cole is about it...Besides when u state that England produces more LBs u have to take in account the whole country not just the top 20 teams imo. There's still nothing to back your claim thr,

Miguel is 27 already my mistake...And just because C Ronaldo has alot of experience still doesn't make him any less a young player. Who does England have that is comparable to Ronaldo at his age?

How do u know they are good enough to play for England if they havent even got their first senior cap? It's still up in the air for me...

Of course England are lacking of left footed winger...but as long as you can find a right footed player that can play at the left side of team is okay what..like Ronaldinho did for Brazil...

You have forgotten about Wayne Bridge...if you said 15 out of 20 La Liga teams are using Spanish left backs, are they good enough??    Give me some names except for Pernia and Del Horno..

Wayne Rooney...

How does the football pundits knows that a player is good enough to play for England?? By evaluating their performances for their clubs of course and Baines, Barry, Nolan, Barton has been performing well enough for their clubs for the past few seasons that merits them a place in the England squad...