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 Reserve Teams To Play In Lower Divisions, Instead Of Current Reserve League?

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verx
post Mar 21 2007, 02:08 PM

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I can see where the 2 camps are coming from. You can't blame the smaller clubs for slamming Rafa because most of these clubs do have a history behind them. Why should they move aside to let youth teams compete with them. But i also agree that something must be done as the reserve league is very poor. Loaning players to smaller clubs is a solution but a very tricky one at that. First of all contracts must be penned out and sometimes these loaned players don't get games anyway. But Man Utd has successfully implemented that system to good effect as well so all is not as bleak as Rafa puts it.

At the end of the day there are pros and cons to having youth teams competing in the lower divisions. I won't say which system is better over the other as I have seen many farcical situations arise over in Spain.
Also i think it won't necessarily work in England cause the culture and history is very different between the 2 countries.

However i will admit that this might be a reason why youngsters in Spain are more technically and tactically adept compared to their English counterparts.

Anyway i just want to clarify that only Castilla (RM B side) are competing in the Segunda A division (equivalent of the Championship) and are fighting against relegation (4th from bottom). Most of the other B teams are actually competing in the Segunda B division which is the third division. So thinking that the youth teams will be able to compete neck and neck with men is foolish imo.
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post Mar 21 2007, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE(alien2003 @ Mar 21 2007, 02:11 PM)
Plus from what I read, it seems the 'B' teams in Spain cant be promoted to upper leagues (correct me if I am wrong  blush.gif )? But in English lower leagues, team promotion is there. Lets say if Team A sent their reserve team to lower league and they won the league title and can be promoted to upper league, it might become a scenario where Team A vs Team A reserve in the upper league?
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The reason why the rule was implemented in Spain was to prevent the reserve team from facing the first team. The rule applies for cup competitions as well (meaning the youth sides can't compete in the cups). This rule didn't exist originally..but after Real Madrid met Castilla in a Copa del Rey final and proceeded to hammer them..they realised such a rule was necessary. If England were to implement the system a similar rule must be in place so even if the youth team finishes in a promotion place they will not get promoted to the same league as the first team.
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post Mar 21 2007, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 21 2007, 02:22 PM)
And who plays in the 3rd Division? Women? If most of them are good enough to play for 1st or 2nd Division sides, why can't they play against them?
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Trying to be sarcastic eh...
Well let me tell u that the youth teams aren't exactly setting the third division alight. The situation is very different than in England. There are alot more club sides in England than there are in Spain. And the football scene in Spain is such that it is dominated by Real Madrid and Barcelona and that most Spanish youngsters dream of playing for either of the 2 sides. You don't have such passionate support for the local small clubs like they have in England. Why should these clubs be sacrificed to satisfy the whims of a foreigner?
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post Mar 21 2007, 04:54 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 21 2007, 04:47 PM)
For the better good of English football. We are looking at this situation from the perspective of the small clubs. What about looking at it from the perspective of England. Will this not give English youth more opportunity to play against and therefore learn from top opposition. Managers are suggesting that top sides can still loan out their players to smaller clubs as has been going on for quite awhile now. What is the result of this? England have not won nor been in a major final for quite some time now. Worse still, they are struggling against the likes of Macedonia. Clearly there is a problem and it has to be addressed. How else for young players supposed to get competitive games?
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Then what about the youths in the smaller clubs? Don't they deserve the same opportunity? Or is it that only the big clubs deserve to have youngsters playing for them. Changing your youth system doesn't necessarily mean that the standard of the English national team will improve. Look at Brazil. They don't have youth systems like the likes of England or Spain but they will always be one of the favourties come the WC.
It's not the youth system's fault that the England team is struggling in the national stage. The Spanish national team is struggling too...so how do u explain that?
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post Mar 21 2007, 05:01 PM

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I'm not totally against the idea as I am a fan of Spanish football. But i think u're looking at it the wrong way; expecting it to improve the standard of English football drastically. Isn't the EPL regarded as one of the best leagues (if not the best if u believe some quarters of the English media) in the world?
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post Mar 21 2007, 05:23 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 21 2007, 05:05 PM)
As it is, there aren't enough English youngsters coming through the ranks. They get shipped out mostly. Why? Aren't they good enough? If so, why not? Could be that it is something in the water that affects the majority of Englishmen. Could also be that they don't play regularly enough at a higher level. As I have said, the Spanish are perennial underachievers. Having said that, Spanish teams still have a substantial composition of Spanish players as opposed to English ones, top sides of course.

Real Madrid themselves have Cassilas, Selgado, Ramos, Raul, Guti. Bravo, Helguera and Pavon to name a few, all of which are in and abouts the first team. Barca have Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Oleguer and Iniesta.

The argument is that foreign talent is cheaper but why can't English players coming through the ranks compete with them? I'm pretty sure clubs would rather not spend on foreign talent if they could.
But the fact is that argument is true. Foreign talent is cheaper. The prices that clubs slap on English youngsters is ridiculous forcing most managers to look abroad. But that has nothing to do with the youth system in the first place. It's a result of the EPL taking the commercial aspect of football to new heights.

QUOTE
Of course it is but that is besides the point. The reason this idea was even brought up was for the reserve teams to get better exposure. It wasn't to improve the quality of the league.
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That's just lying to yourself. You brought up the issue about England being not good enough in the first place. It's all about the quality at the end of the day. If you just wanted exposure let the reserve teams play more games by having them play each other 4 times a season (which would be pointless of course).
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post Mar 21 2007, 05:44 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 21 2007, 05:33 PM)
At Liverpool, promising English youngsters like Welsh and Thompson were shipped out. Fringe players like Mellor and Warnock didn't make the grade. This has nothing to do with foreign talent being cheaper, just better. I'm not going to dwelve into the youth development system which I do not know much about. I'm just bringing up the notion that these players could have made the grade had they received better exposure.
You're just skimming the surface when it comes to foreign talent. Sure everyone knows the likes of Fabregas, C Ronaldo, etc. But there are also alot of foreign talent who don't make the grade. Just because u know a few English players who don't doesn't mean that the quality of English youngsters is as inferior as u are suggesting. For every fringe English player u can name, I can probably name u a Spanish one. That's just how it is.

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It's not just about the exposure, it is about the quality of opposition they play against. They argument here is that reserve teams 1) don't play enough games, 2) don't play against quality opposition.
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Now you are just contradicting yourself. Stop taking me round in circles rclxub.gif tongue.gif
But I agree with the 2 points...but i think the English should just stick to loaning players to lower division teams. It serves the same purpose. If Man Utd can do it with proven success i don't see why Rafa has anything to complain about.
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post Mar 21 2007, 08:59 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 21 2007, 05:50 PM)
My question is simply, how come the composition of English players in English teams are so low compared to other leagues, even Spain?
Simple. In other countries u don't have to pay ridiculous prices for local players. You could snap up a youngster from our youth side for less than 5m euros. How much did Theo Walcott cost again? And u get the big picture. The prices for English talent is way inflated. How much did Xabi Alonso cost u guys? Imagine if he were English. Do u think he would have cost the same?

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Who have Man Utd loaned out that has come back to the club a success? The spending power of EPL clubs especially the top sides are increasing as foreign owners are coming in. With money to spend, you'd expect these clubs to buy the players they need. My concern with this is that local lads get less and less of an opportunity to break into the first team, that is unless they improve dramatically. What methods then can be implemented to improve the quality of these players?
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You ask that question as if every (or at least most) youngster in the Spanish B sides make it into the 1st team. Most of them don't make it into La Liga teams anyway let alone play for the first team. You'll be amazed how many players have been offloaded by our Castilla team. You say your concern is that the local lads don't get the opportunity. Have u ever considered that they were never going to be good enough anyway? Playing at the highest level not only requires talent, it requires mental toughness. Most won't make it but some will. For Liverpool, Gerrard and Carragher are proof of that.
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post Mar 22 2007, 12:00 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 22 2007, 11:26 AM)
I do realise that the prices of English players are way inflated which is why EPL clubs look abroad. Up until now youth teams (e.g. under-18's) consists of mainly British players, some of which play for the reserve teams as well. Assuming that I manage the youth team for Liverpool, how best can I improve the quality of my players? Some say that great players are born, but good players can be made. I can impart as much theory on my young fledglings as possible but the fact remains that they still need real match exposure. Instead what happens today is that a large proportion of these youngsters do not make into the 1st team. They get picked up by championship sides and the better ones go to smaller EPL sides. In their place come young, arguably more talented youth players from countries like France, Spain, Germany and the rest of Europe. Why bring in youth players from abroad if mine are good enough? As you pointed out, they aren't good enough which is the problem. Why do you think this is so? Would playing competitive matches, more of them as a matter of fact help?
Again u ignore the fact that the talented youngsters that u r talking about are already handpicked by the managers. You're comparing apples to oranges. How do u know that the quality of England's youngsters are poorer or better? We can't prove that at all. You don't realise that there are alot of youngsters in Spain, Italy, France, etc that don't make the cut as well.

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I throughly agree with this but how does one develop mental toughness. I used to play in various sporting competitions (though not on the big stage). I played handball, football, futsal, badminton and basketball (am currently playing in a tournament). What thing I do know is that mental toughness can be developed by exposure to competition. Of course you can send players for motivational courses and such but there is nothing like the real thing.
I agree with you on this..so do what the English have always done..send the youngsters on loan. It's not like there aren't any results.

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The point of playing the reserves in a lower league is because the argument that teams playing in the championship are stronger than reserve teams. Your argument is therefore invalid. How are they not respecting the smaller clubs? What does who founded the league have anything to do with it?
How are they disrespecting English football by wanting to improve it? By your reckoning, should ALL decisions of the EPL be made by only a committee comprising of these teams? Does it mean that if any other club like Man Utd were to win the league without their consent, it would be disrespectful to these teams?
And now many of these youngsters had to be brought in from abroad? They have already received training overseas before coming over. They aren't exactly raw diamonds.
This is the problem ain't it...u don't think it's disrespectful that small clubs have to lose their places to reserve sides...clubs who have alot of history and passionate support through the years despite not being able to compete at the highest level.
It's nothing to do with who wins the EPL or who makes the decisions...The culture of English football should be respected and Rafa's comments just shows ignorance imo.

QUOTE
How does one develop mental toughness? I don't know but perhaps playing competitive matches might help, don't you think? Jeffers has always been crap by the way and Stan Collymore lacked discipline. Ricketts had one good season, anyone can have a lucky streak, look at Darren Bent or Marlon Harewood. Bridges did play consistently for Leeds but he has constantly been plagued by injuries.
Aside from Beckham, Lampard and Gerrard, which other English player is being chased by a foreign team? How many English players are plying their trade overseas? How many made it? Far as I remember only Chris Waddle, Paul Gascoigne, Gary Lineker and to a far lesser extent David Platt made any progress.
It is the responsibility of the FA to improve English football. It is the responsibility of a Premiership manager to improve his team. Each is paid to perform their duties. While I do agree with the implementation of this system, I do accept that it has it's flaws. Instead of completely slamming the idea however, why not build on it? Obviously there is a case here and most people choose to slam it without offering a better solution. At least someone had the gall to say something. It is easy to sit here and ridicule but how about some constructive criticism?
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All the players mentioned had potential when they were younger. And it's not like they didn't have exposure to competitive matches. They just didn't make it. Whether more English players should play overseas is a different matter altogether. Most of them choose not to go overseas...it's not like they are not good enough.

And as i said before i'm not against the system as i like the way the Spanish do it. But i just believe that it won't work in England. You say we are not offering a solution...I already have...send the youngsters on loan...simple.
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post Mar 22 2007, 02:56 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 22 2007, 12:55 PM)
It is already happening. Clubs are beginning to lose their identity because the EPL is highly marketable. Already, clubs are being sold to foreign owners. Is this not contributing to a loss in identity? When Liverpool was sold, it brought an end to the Moores legacy, which was part of our identity. Arsenal have now moved into The Emirates from Highbury, was there not an ounce of identity lost it that? When Man Utd were sold, did they not faced with objections (to put it mildly) from their supporters?
What has identity got to do with it?? We aren't talking about losing identity..it's about respecting the football culture in England. The smaller clubs do not deserve to be demoted to the Conference league for example just because they have to make space for reserve sides. I don't understand how anyone can justify that? The only way i can see a compromise for this is if the reserve sides are forced to start right from the bottom..playing Conference sides if they have to.

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How do you know English youth don't choose to go overseas? I've already touched on the issue of culture above. I for one value culture a lot, given that Liverpool is full of it. There has to be a tradeoff somewhere though. The way things are going, all the Premiership sides will be represented by foreigners while English players play in the lower divisions.
It's not rocket science that English players prefer to play in England. Some ppl might not be happy with the current influx of foreigners but i personally don't see it escalating. There will always be English players who are good enough. The likes of Walcott, Lennon, Baines show that all is not lost when it comes to young English talent.

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How is that any different from what is happening now? Sending players out on loan is nothing new. Some of these players don't get to play regularly enough even when they are on loan which defeats the purpose. Even when they do play, they seldom return. As you have quite rightly pointed out, perhaps it is because they simply weren't good enough but in a country where football is the no.1 sport, how can this be? Of course there are a few contributing factors (i.e. training routines, diet, etc) but match exposure if definitely one of them. Again, the argument here is that they don't play a sufficient number of games at a high enough level.
I agree that if a player is loaned out but doesnt get any games then it defeats the purpose. But the same thing would happen even if u allow reserve teams to compete at a higher level. Managers would stick to their strongest players and not all would get games. Both systems suffer from this. You have such a pretty picture of the youth system in Spain that even when u say u realize it has flaws i find it hard to believe that u actually do know what those flaws are.

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In conclusion, it will benefit the top sides and not the bottom ones so it depends on which perspective you are looking at it from. As a fan of my club, I only want the best for them. Perhaps having an extension of the reserve league is a more amicable solution.
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I think for a topic such as this it's important to look at it objectively rather than from a biased point of view. Your suggestion could work but what's important is that the youngsters face quality opposition week in week out.
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post Mar 22 2007, 04:58 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 22 2007, 03:25 PM)
I didn't bring up the issue of identity. You mentioned the importance of preserving a clubs history. Doesn't that reflect a clubs identity?
I didn't say preserve history..i said respect it. Preserving history or identity is for another discussion wink.gif

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Who is talking about demoting the smaller clubs? Did Rafa suggest that? What about having a bigger league with more fixtures to accommodate these teams rather than have them replace smaller clubs? What about as you say, starting they from the Conference? The same suggestion was mooted when Rangers and Celtic wanted in to the English League.
I don't know about making a league bigger than it already is. I would like to share what they do in Spain though. The Segunda B is actually split into 4 groups with each group hacing about 20 teams (not sure what the exact figure is). At the end of the season they have playoffs to determine who gets promotion.

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It is not nuclear physics that players prefer to play in their countries of origin. I have nothing against foreigners but I would like the core of my team to be of local origin. As it is, it bothers me that there isn't a next Stevie G or Jamie C waiting in the wings. Instead we have a host of players from as many countries as flavours in Baskin Robbins. While Rafa is speaking of developing ALL youth regardless of nationality, I'm touching specifically on English youth (i.e under 18s, etc). Speaking of Walcott, it shocked the whole of England that he was selected to the World Cup having no first team football experience. Was England that devoid of local footballers? It can be argued that this was down to the manager but it is no big secret that though there are a couple of promising young English players, there simply isn't enough of them.
I think there are more promising English youngsters than any of us know about and that they just aren't given the opportunity to play at the highest level yet. It's the same thing in other countries. Only a few quality youngsters are actually playing at the highest level. I don't see a difference really. The difference in the technical level between English youngsters and their Spanish/French counterparts has more to do with the academies (U-15) imo. The English are too structured when it comes to training kids.

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Well instead of just saying it is flawed, why not point out why and how so that I may better understand? Repeating that is it over and over again isn't going to give me a better understanding of why.

Well i think one flaw was already mentioned by a poster here: Conflict of interest between the first team and reserve team. Of course u could implement similar rules like they have in Spain but u will still encounter farcical situations like described earlier about Malaga.

Also u have situations where the reserve players are continuously switched between the 2 teams playing in different leagues and there is no continuity for the player involved. It happens alot with RM where players like De La Red could be playing in La Liga 1 weekend and Segunda A the next. Not ideal for development imo.

And u still get the same situation as in England where there are alot of players waiting to break into the first team but just aren't given the chance (either because they aren't good enough or managers not willing to risk playing youngsters). These players are normally under a dillemma. Do they wait for their chance to break into the first team or do the take care of their career by getting a transfer to other teams. There have been so many cases of wasted careers. Pavon was a promising youngster back in the day. Now he's just average at best. Cesc Fabregas is another interesting example. Cesc was hardly the most promising youngster in Barca youth squad and it has been agreed upon that if he stayed in Spain he still wouldn't have made it into the 1st team yet. Look where he is now.

Of course there are those that actually make it. Players like Raul, Guti and Casillas are examples but again how many are there really? Looking at Barca's squad now: only Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi, Messi came through their ranks. How different is that from the situation in England?

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Correct and as it is the majority of players that have gone out on loan either do not return and if they do, they have not improved. To me this indicates that there is room for improvement. How do you reckon this issue be addressed then?
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The FA has to do something definitely. Maybe loan clauses could be inserted into contracts where loaned players be forced to play a stipulated number of games. Or if u really want to implement the Spanish system, register the reserve teams to compete right from the bottom. It will take a few years before the fruits will bear imo as they still need to climb the ladder.


Enough of my rumblings for now....anyway just want to comment what a great topic this is...kudos to u for bringing it up notworthy.gif
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post Mar 22 2007, 05:25 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ Mar 22 2007, 05:16 PM)
Far be it for me to take credit for the work of others. It was actually alien2003 which opened the thread.
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Yeah but it was u who brought it up 1st in another thread.
Anyway kudos to alien2003 as well for opening this thread icon_rolleyes.gif
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post Mar 27 2007, 11:06 AM

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QUOTE(Notoriez @ Mar 27 2007, 02:59 AM)
You have answered my point on why reserve teams should be included in the English League structures..

Let's say Liverpool reserves started frm the scratch (conference) and in the next few years they managed to get promoted to the Premier League, how do you expect Rafa pick his squad?? It isn't fair to other teams because the reserve team may or can use the Liverpool first team squad players when they are up against other teams..For example Bellamy can be playing for 2 different teams in the same league shakehead.gif and last it would also defeat the purpose of giving the young players a chance to play competitive football coz for sure Rafa would choose some his senior players to play for the reserves team coz football nowadays is all about profit and fielding a weakened team won't get you any profit..
There will be rules in place like in Spain that won't allow the reserve team to be promoted to the same league as the first team so that situation won't happen. And also players from the first team will not allowed to play for the reserve team to help them in the lower divisions. Players from the reserve team however are allowed to play for the first team.

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As i said before about the respect for the smaller clubs who founded the league way in 1888...what do you think happened to them if all the RICH and BIG clubs in PL such as Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool send their reserves team to play in the Championship?? As for Chelsea, sending their reserves team is like sending a team that can play in the PL anytime of the day..so those smaller clubs will struggle financially coz they can't compete with the bigger clubs to buy better players and offering them bigger wage...

For sure, if this idea is implemented those bigger clubs will invest their money on their reserves team to get better players and this will create UNEVEN 'playing field' for the other smaller clubs and slowly you can see the clubs 'GULUNG TIKAR' like what happened to Wimbledon..

DO NOT DISTURB the current English league structure..The best thing that the FA can do is revise and revamped the current Reserves League structure to make it more competitive biggrin.gif
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And i think u might be overreacting if u think reserve teams can compete at the same level as in the Premier League. If they start right from the bottom they will find it very hard to even reach the Championship. But i agree that more respect should be shown to the smaller clubs and that's why i don't see this system being implemented in England. And revising and revamping the current reserve league is easy for u to say without suggesting anything concrete as to how one would go about doing it. Spain's system regardless whether it is suitable for England or not is a proven system so most of the points u have tried to make are moot imo.
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post Mar 27 2007, 05:03 PM

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QUOTE(Notoriez @ Mar 27 2007, 02:01 PM)
But even though this system works in Spain, it won't definitely work in England coz it will affect the other clubs in the lower tier in the league..
It affects the lower tier in Spain as well. There's always an effect no matter what system u use. But i agree that it might not be suitable in England.

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It's just an assumption that IF the reserves team can make it to the upper tier of the league structure, what will happen..
What do u meant by proven?? Producing world class players?? I think Spain produced the same amount of talented players like England do...btw do u see Spain winning any prestigious tournaments in the present and in the past?? 
Spain's underachievements have nothing to do with the talent they produce at youth level. I have my own idea why they are the biggest underachievers in international football but that's for another discussion. As of this time now Spain are the U-17 world champs...and u look at the current generation of Spanish players...saying England produces just as much as Spain in terms of talent is just being ignorant.

Countries like Holland and Portugal produce alot more talent than England do as well but u don't see them winning the major tournaments.

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About the reserve league, why don't the FA just combined all the reserves league in one big league instead of separating it into different regions..
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It's a decent suggestion but does it ensure that by doing that the quality is improved and not just doing it for numbers....
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post Mar 28 2007, 04:23 PM

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QUOTE(Notoriez @ Mar 28 2007, 03:19 PM)
England doesn't have any decent players who can play at the left side?? It's McLaren's fault who put Neville and Carragher at the left side, where as Leighton Baines, Matthew Taylor, Gareth Barry who can play at the left flank of England but were left out of the team..

Spain doesn't produce that plenty of left footed players either...Reyes, David Silva, Vicente, Pernia, Del Horno...who else?? They may have much more plenty options on the left winger side, but england outnumbered them on the left back side...
I'm baffled by this...what are England's options on the left wing? Joe Cole is right footed. And Pernia, Del Horno and Antonio Lopez are Spain's current left backs. How many LBs do u need in a team?? Nice try pulling out "facts" out of your a**.

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Portugal produces much more talents than England?? I'll doubt that..If they have plenty of young talents, why they still call up the likes of Figo, Pauleta, Costinha, Gomes, Valente into their squad?? The only youngsters that managed to get into the squad are Nani, Moutinho and Manuel Da Costa...where as England has Dawson, Downing, Lennon, Richards, Nugent waiting on the wings...
What does producing talent have to do with the senior national side? You need some experience in the national side...Besides Figo and Pauleta have retired...and i dunno about u but i would classify the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Quaresma as still young players. The players u named for England...how many of them are actually good enough in the international stage...so far only Lennon has impressed.

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but how many of them gonna become WORLD CLASS players?? How many of them gonna be an END PRODUCT?? I may don't have much knowledge in Spanish football like you do but at the end of the day most of this talented youngsters will go to waste coz they don't have mental toughness which is needed in modern footballers nowadays..that WE can't develop for them...they must develop it themselves...for example Hugo Viana...last time, he's one of the most sought after talented youngter in Europe but look where he is right now?? Playing for Valencia's reserve team...
I agree with u that not all of them will be world class players but that ain't the issue here aint it. We are talking about youngsters getting developed by playing quality opposition. How they turn out is a different issue.
And again Hugo Viana is a squad player in Valencia's first team...sure he may not have reached his potential but no 1 can doubt that he possesses good technique which is what u want to train into youngsters 1st.

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We are debating about the Rafa's proposition to have many competitive games for the reserves league right?? Why we have to debate about the youth development?? As for the academies players, i think they have plenty of competitive games to play, such as the Youth FA Cup, Youth regional league, Youth regional cups..
We aren't talking about academies...we are talking about players who have come out of those academies and how they are continuing their development. As it is in England they play in the reserve leagues which some say isn't competitive enough. That's what this debate is about.

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We can't simply revise the league structure for the sake of BIGGER clubs selfishly wishes to play their reserve team in the league...How to improve the reserve league overall quality?? It's all up to the gaffer and the players set their mind on how to approach each reserve game..do they willing to give their all for a friendly games where there is nothing at stake?? It's very hard to make the reserve league competitive coz most reserve teams in the PL comprises of 'reserve mati' players (who dun have the passion to play for the club anymore), lack of match fitness players (who maybe not willing to give their all coz they are afraid that they might get injured back) and some of the youth players who are included in the first team..
That is the problem with the reserve system isnt it. I have since suggested that the English should continue doing what they have always done...send these players on loan and have a clause written to stipulate that these youngsters must play a minimum number of games or risk compensation. Duke Red is favouring a system similar to Spain's with some compromises.

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We are debating the HIDDEN AGENDA on why Rafa and Mourinho wanted the their reserves team wanna play in the same league like their first team..as for the youth academies, lack of competitive matches is not a problem as I've said before they are involved in various competitions..Those two gaffer doesn't want to play their expensively 'purchased' youngsters in the youth team coz it's not appropriate for them to play with younger lads..They wanted their 'purchased' youngsters to involved in a much more competitive league but there's nothing at stake..why just they send those promising youngsters to other smaller teams?? like Wenger did..it's maybe because they don't want to release their 'EXPENSIVE YOUNGSTERS' to other smaller clubs so they bring up this TOPIC tongue.gif
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I have no interest in Rafa's or Mourinho's intentions cause they are entitled to their opinion...but I would have liked for them to show more respect to the English culture
However your accusations that they don't want to release their youngsters is pretty absurd...they can always send them on loan as they have done so with some players already.
verx
post Mar 28 2007, 11:36 PM

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QUOTE(Notoriez @ Mar 28 2007, 11:05 PM)
Wanna see my nice A**?? All the girls i've known have been complimenting my nice a** biggrin.gif flex.gif tongue.gif
Uh...no thx...i'll pass tongue.gif

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As i've said, England produces plenty left backs and not plenty of left wingers where as Spain produces plenty wingers too but not plenty of left backs..Nowadays it's very hard to see any WORLD CLASS left sided players since Ginola, Giggs which can set the world alight...can u name me any WORLD CLASS left sided midfielders from Argentina and Brazil (two countries that never short of football talent)...In the last World Cup both countries have using Ronaldinho (right sided player) and Sorin (defender) as their left winger...
Ronaldinho is left sided although he is right footed...he's not a right sided player...don't confuse left sided with left footed...and isn't Messi left footed?
You say England produces alot of LB's but how many of them are really world class as u put it? Then i can also say every footballing country can produce alot of left backs...What's there to substantiate that England produces more leftbacks than Spain (or any country for that matter)?? I personally dunno where u get that from.

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That's the point...you've been saying that Portugal is producing plenty talents than England where are they?? The only time Portugal produced plenty of talents are in the early 90's during the Golden Generation of Portugal..

Aren't C Ronaldo, Quaresma, Moutinho, Miguel players u would consider good young talents who have proven themselves on the international stage? Why don't u tell me where England's talents are then?

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Of course they needed to play against quality opposition..but how would you like to propose that??
Read the discussions Duke Red and I have been having.

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Those techniques can be learn during training..you don't need to have competitive matches to learn those techniques..A good player is the one who can only make use the technique he learns during training coz even though you're good in training but if u can't repeat the same technique during a competitive match then u're useless like Malaysian players..I saw their training session many times (they were really good) but during the match day, not even one skill comes out..why?? They were sent to train in foreign countries, played competitive matches...but why they still suxx?? It's because they don't have the mental toughness when they were up and against superior team than them..

This i agree with u which is why Hugo Viana isn't a world class player...I'm just pointing out that u made a mistake when u said he was playing for their reserve team. At least he's still a good squad player.

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This is really a good idea.. biggrin.gif
Thank you

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The young players that they have signed such as Palleta, El Zhar, Ben Sahar, they are good enough to play for the lower division clubs but why they are still at the club?? Don't tell me that none of the clubs in the championship don't have any intentions to get them on loan..most of the clubs down there can't afford to buy players, why they don't go and try to get some of the youngsters on loan from the bigger clubs... unsure.gif
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I think some of them do...but most seem reluctant to gamble on youngsters...there's nothing more pissing off to me than a club getting a youngster on loan and then not playing him at all. This is why we are saying that the system needs to be improved.


Added on March 29, 2007, 1:12 pmI found this really good article...worth a read

The Premiership feasts while England flounder
David Conn
Source
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by verx: Mar 29 2007, 01:14 PM
verx
post Mar 31 2007, 12:07 AM

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QUOTE(Notoriez @ Mar 30 2007, 09:08 PM)
but traditionally any team that employ 4-4-2 system would prefer a left winger with a left foot..of course a player like Henry and Ronaldinho is a left sided player with a right foot but they do not normally stick in one area of the pitch..they were given a license to roam where ever they like...
Yeah...and the only left footed winger in the current England squad is Downing...but that doesn't mean England are devoid of traditional left wingers

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It's just my from my current observation...even though i watched and followed the PL more than La Liga but it seems that PL clubs using more english left backs than LaLiga clubs using spanish bred leftbacks..plz correct me if im wrong biggrin.gif
About 15 out of the 20 La Liga teams are using Spanish LBs...you only got that impression because you are comparing the top sides: Barca, Real and Sevilla to all the EPL clubs. Again..apples and oranges. How many top class English LB's do the top 4 EPL sides have? Ashley Cole is about it...Besides when u state that England produces more LBs u have to take in account the whole country not just the top 20 teams imo. There's still nothing to back your claim thr,

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Miguel?? The Valencia right back?? Isn't he is more than 25 edi??..Even though C.Ronaldo is still young but i can't consider him as a young player coz he's played plenty of games edi for both clubs and country..even Steve McMahon said it b4..
Miguel is 27 already my mistake...And just because C Ronaldo has alot of experience still doesn't make him any less a young player. Who does England have that is comparable to Ronaldo at his age?

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As for Moutinho and Quaresma..only Quaresma started playing in the first 11 after Figo retired..why does Barca sold him at the first place?? For me, he's still not good enough coz he's quite selfish in his play and inconsistent..he doesn't live up to his true potential yet..Moutinho still needs more time to learn and i think it's very hard for him to break into the first eleven in the next few yrs (bcoz of Deco) unless he moved on to another club in another country..

Quaresma has been in good form for Porto this season. He has matured alot in his play...similar to how C Ronaldo matured this season as well but of coz Ronaldo is on another level currently. Moutinho is still young but he didn't show any nerves on his previous outing for Portugal...he's another one to watch for along with Nani

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As for England, i've seen Barry, Baines, Taylor have been consistent throughout the season and although i do not rate them as WORLD CLASS players but they still good enough to wear the England shirt..It's not easy to produce world class talent nowadays, so it's up to the player himself whether he wanted to be much more better than he is right now or just be content with his pay pocket right now..
How do u know they are good enough to play for England if they havent even got their first senior cap? It's still up in the air for me...

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Even though we gave this youngsters more competitive games, it's their attitude that counts the most..if they don't work hard then they will become flops like Jeffers and M.Bridges..only those who work hard such as Lampard, Zidane, Grosso, L.Toni who peaked late in their footballing careers can be WORLD CLASS biggrin.gif

I agree that it is up to the individual characters...but that's something u don't have control over...so why worry about that? Giving them more competitive games however is something that can be done and England will only benefit from it.

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This i have to agree with you that the loan system needs some improvement..but i've to ask you that why a club tried so hard to get a young player on loan and fills up their precious 2 loan quota but didn't play the player?? there must be a reason ain it?? It's either the player impresses them during scouting mission but fail to live up to their expectations when the player come and train with them or the player just can't cope with physical demand of the game..

As you said before, normally a loanee wont return to their club..why?? They ain't good enough..For sure the managers who loaned their players to other clubs will keep track of their progress and see whether they have improved..If they do not improve though they played every competitive match for their loan club, of course they get sold biggrin.gif
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Why should there be a quota in the 1st place? I don't think its necessary...
And i guess clubs only do have their interests in mind when they sign a player that doesn't turn out right...then isn't it a reason to consider another idea or a compromise?
verx
post Apr 7 2007, 09:56 PM

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QUOTE(Notoriez @ Apr 7 2007, 01:33 AM)
Of course England are lacking of left footed winger...but as long as you can find a right footed player that can play at the left side of team is okay what..like Ronaldinho did for Brazil...
Yea of course but so far only Joe Cole has proven himself to be good enough for the NT.

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You have forgotten about Wayne Bridge...if you said 15 out of 20 La Liga teams are using Spanish left backs, are they good enough??  hmm.gif  Give me some names except for Pernia and Del Horno..
Antonio Lopez tongue.gif. Anyway my point wasn't to suggest they all are good enough for the NT. I'm just rebutting your suggestion that there is a lack of Spanish LBs. Besides there aren't that many English LB's good enough in the international stage anyway besides Cole and Bridge. Baines for me is still too early to say whether he can step up to the mark regardless of his club form.

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Wayne Rooney...
Don't mind me if i say that i think Rooney is overrated. Ronaldo for me is a much better player imo.

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How does the football pundits knows that a player is good enough to play for England?? By evaluating their performances for their clubs of course and Baines, Barry, Nolan, Barton has been performing well enough for their clubs for the past few seasons that merits them a place in the England squad...
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The football pundits don't know that. They are just suggesting players who might be good enough for the NT. Whether they are good enough is not really known cause obviously they haven't got their opportunity yet to prove themselves. How many times have we seen players with good club forms fail miserably at international level (Lampard anyone? tongue.gif)

 

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