Again u ignore the fact that the talented youngsters that u r talking about are already handpicked by the managers. You're comparing apples to oranges. How do u know that the quality of England's youngsters are poorer or better? We can't prove that at all. You don't realise that there are alot of youngsters in Spain, Italy, France, etc that don't make the cut as well.

I agree with you on this..so do what the English have always done..send the youngsters on loan. It's not like there aren't any results.

This is the problem ain't it...u don't think it's disrespectful that small clubs have to lose their places to reserve sides...clubs who have alot of history and passionate support through the years despite not being able to compete at the highest level.
It's nothing to do with who wins the EPL or who makes the decisions...The culture of English football should be respected and Rafa's comments just shows ignorance imo.

All the players mentioned had potential when they were younger. And it's not like they didn't have exposure to competitive matches. They just didn't make it. Whether more English players should play overseas is a different matter altogether. Most of them choose not to go overseas...it's not like they are not good enough.

And as i said before i'm not against the system as i like the way the Spanish do it. But i just believe that it won't work in England. You say we are not offering a solution...I already have...send the youngsters on loan...simple.

Milan backs Rafa plan



http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=4...backs+Rafa+plan

This post has been edited by alien2003: Mar 22 2007, 12:05 PM

It is already happening. Clubs are beginning to lose their identity because the EPL is highly marketable. Already, clubs are being sold to foreign owners. Is this not contributing to a loss in identity? When Liverpool was sold, it brought an end to the Moores legacy, which was part of our identity. Arsenal have now moved into The Emirates from Highbury, was there not an ounce of identity lost it that? When Man Utd were sold, did they not faced with objections (to put it mildly) from their supporters?



How do you know English youth don't choose to go overseas? I've already touched on the issue of culture above. I for one value culture a lot, given that Liverpool is full of it. There has to be a tradeoff somewhere though. The way things are going, all the Premiership sides will be represented by foreigners while English players play in the lower divisions.

How is that any different from what is happening now? Sending players out on loan is nothing new. Some of these players don't get to play regularly enough even when they are on loan which defeats the purpose. Even when they do play, they seldom return. As you have quite rightly pointed out, perhaps it is because they simply weren't good enough but in a country where football is the no.1 sport, how can this be? Of course there are a few contributing factors (i.e. training routines, diet, etc) but match exposure if definitely one of them. Again, the argument here is that they don't play a sufficient number of games at a high enough level.

In conclusion, it will benefit the top sides and not the bottom ones so it depends on which perspective you are looking at it from. As a fan of my club, I only want the best for them. Perhaps having an extension of the reserve league is a more amicable solution.

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Added on March 22, 2007, 1:44 pmHere's a suggestion

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Mar 22 2007, 01:44 PM

What has identity got to do with it?? We aren't talking about losing identity..it's about respecting the football culture in England. The smaller clubs do not deserve to be demoted to the Conference league for example just because they have to make space for reserve sides. I don't understand how anyone can justify that? The only way i can see a compromise for this is if the reserve sides are forced to start right from the bottom..playing Conference sides if they have to.

It's not rocket science that English players prefer to play in England. Some ppl might not be happy with the current influx of foreigners but i personally don't see it escalating. There will always be English players who are good enough. The likes of Walcott, Lennon, Baines show that all is not lost when it comes to young English talent.

I agree that if a player is loaned out but doesnt get any games then it defeats the purpose. But the same thing would happen even if u allow reserve teams to compete at a higher level. Managers would stick to their strongest players and not all would get games. Both systems suffer from this. You have such a pretty picture of the youth system in Spain that even when u say u realize it has flaws i find it hard to believe that u actually do know what those flaws are.

I think for a topic such as this it's important to look at it objectively rather than from a biased point of view. Your suggestion could work but what's important is that the youngsters face quality opposition week in week out.

I didn't bring up the issue of identity. You mentioned the importance of preserving a clubs history. Doesn't that reflect a clubs identity?

Who is talking about demoting the smaller clubs? Did Rafa suggest that? What about having a bigger league with more fixtures to accommodate these teams rather than have them replace smaller clubs? What about as you say, starting they from the Conference? The same suggestion was mooted when Rangers and Celtic wanted in to the English League.



It is not nuclear physics that players prefer to play in their countries of origin. I have nothing against foreigners but I would like the core of my team to be of local origin. As it is, it bothers me that there isn't a next Stevie G or Jamie C waiting in the wings. Instead we have a host of players from as many countries as flavours in Baskin Robbins. While Rafa is speaking of developing ALL youth regardless of nationality, I'm touching specifically on English youth (i.e under 18s, etc). Speaking of Walcott, it shocked the whole of England that he was selected to the World Cup having no first team football experience. Was England that devoid of local footballers? It can be argued that this was down to the manager but it is no big secret that though there are a couple of promising young English players, there simply isn't enough of them.

Well instead of just saying it is flawed, why not point out why and how so that I may better understand? Repeating that is it over and over again isn't going to give me a better understanding of why.

Correct and as it is the majority of players that have gone out on loan either do not return and if they do, they have not improved. To me this indicates that there is room for improvement. How do you reckon this issue be addressed then?

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Added on March 22, 2007, 3:52 pmI'm actually surprised this topic isn't getting a better response. It concerns the future of all English clubs.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Mar 22 2007, 03:52 PM

I didn't say preserve history..i said respect it. Preserving history or identity is for another discussion

I don't know about making a league bigger than it already is. I would like to share what they do in Spain though. The Segunda B is actually split into 4 groups with each group hacing about 20 teams (not sure what the exact figure is). At the end of the season they have playoffs to determine who gets promotion.

I think there are more promising English youngsters than any of us know about and that they just aren't given the opportunity to play at the highest level yet. It's the same thing in other countries. Only a few quality youngsters are actually playing at the highest level. I don't see a difference really. The difference in the technical level between English youngsters and their Spanish/French counterparts has more to do with the academies (U-15) imo. The English are too structured when it comes to training kids.


Well i think one flaw was already mentioned by a poster here: Conflict of interest between the first team and reserve team. Of course u could implement similar rules like they have in Spain but u will still encounter farcical situations like described earlier about Malaga.

Also u have situations where the reserve players are continuously switched between the 2 teams playing in different leagues and there is no continuity for the player involved. It happens alot with RM where players like De La Red could be playing in La Liga 1 weekend and Segunda A the next. Not ideal for development imo.

And u still get the same situation as in England where there are alot of players waiting to break into the first team but just aren't given the chance (either because they aren't good enough or managers not willing to risk playing youngsters). These players are normally under a dillemma. Do they wait for their chance to break into the first team or do the take care of their career by getting a transfer to other teams. There have been so many cases of wasted careers. Pavon was a promising youngster back in the day. Now he's just average at best. Cesc Fabregas is another interesting example. Cesc was hardly the most promising youngster in Barca youth squad and it has been agreed upon that if he stayed in Spain he still wouldn't have made it into the 1st team yet. Look where he is now.

Of course there are those that actually make it. Players like Raul, Guti and Casillas are examples but again how many are there really? Looking at Barca's squad now: only Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi, Messi came through their ranks. How different is that from the situation in England?

The FA has to do something definitely. Maybe loan clauses could be inserted into contracts where loaned players be forced to play a stipulated number of games. Or if u really want to implement the Spanish system, register the reserve teams to compete right from the bottom. It will take a few years before the fruits will bear imo as they still need to climb the ladder.


Enough of my rumblings for now....anyway just want to comment what a great topic this is...kudos to u for bringing it up

Far be it for me to take credit for the work of others. It was actually alien2003 which opened the thread.

Yeah but it was u who brought it up 1st in another thread.
Anyway kudos to alien2003 as well for opening this thread

Is this the end of this thread though? Kinda miss having these sorta discussions/debates...

verx is right. You are the one who brought up the idea, Duke Red

They wanna do this to boost tickets sales?..As far as i know,the FA really dun care much about improving,so i really doubt it when they suggest this..

Its not an idea from FA. Its juz a suggestion from Rafa Benitez

It is definitely not to boost ticket sales as reserve matches don't garner a huge following. The idea is for clubs (top sides apparently) to produce better talent as the young ones (or reserves) don't play a sufficient number of competitive games. I read a suggestion somewhere that the top sides should then purchase clubs in smaller leagues and field their youth. The only issue then is that they are playing against crap opposition anyway which defeats the purpose. The most logical solution would appear to be combining all the reserve leagues together to form one big league instead of breaking them up into regions as is currently happening. That way all reserve teams play more games. It still is different however because reserve teams also comprise of players returning from injury and are getting back into fitness. I doubt they'd give it their all on the pitch which again brings up the question of quality and competitiveness.

Mourinho was asking for it a few months back as well. I remember how he was saying that the likes of Kalou and Obi Mikel had to play in the reserves.

Wouldn't it be easier to just get a feeder club who plays the players you loan to them regularly?

Top clubs should have no problem bending the rules to force their feeder clubs to play their players. It's all a matter of will.

You have answered my point on why reserve teams should be included in the English League structures..

Let's say Liverpool reserves started frm the scratch (conference) and in the next few years they managed to get promoted to the Premier League, how do you expect Rafa pick his squad?? It isn't fair to other teams because the reserve team may or can use the Liverpool first team squad players when they are up against other teams..For example Bellamy can be playing for 2 different teams in the same league and last it would also defeat the purpose of giving the young players a chance to play competitive football coz for sure Rafa would choose some his senior players to play for the reserves team coz football nowadays is all about profit and fielding a weakened team won't get you any profit..

As i said before about the respect for the smaller clubs who founded the league way in 1888...what do you think happened to them if all the RICH and BIG clubs in PL such as Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool send their reserves team to play in the Championship?? As for Chelsea, sending their reserves team is like sending a team that can play in the PL anytime of the day..so those smaller clubs will struggle financially coz they can't compete with the bigger clubs to buy better players and offering them bigger wage...

For sure, if this idea is implemented those bigger clubs will invest their money on their reserves team to get better players and this will create UNEVEN 'playing field' for the other smaller clubs and slowly you can see the clubs 'GULUNG TIKAR' like what happened to Wimbledon..

DO NOT DISTURB the current English league structure..The best thing that the FA can do is revise and revamped the current Reserves League structure to make it more competitive

There will be rules in place like in Spain that won't allow the reserve team to be promoted to the same league as the first team so that situation won't happen. And also players from the first team will not allowed to play for the reserve team to help them in the lower divisions. Players from the reserve team however are allowed to play for the first team.

And i think u might be overreacting if u think reserve teams can compete at the same level as in the Premier League. If they start right from the bottom they will find it very hard to even reach the Championship. But i agree that more respect should be shown to the smaller clubs and that's why i don't see this system being implemented in England. And revising and revamping the current reserve league is easy for u to say without suggesting anything concrete as to how one would go about doing it. Spain's system regardless whether it is suitable for England or not is a proven system so most of the points u have tried to make are moot imo.

But even though this system works in Spain, it won't definitely work in England coz it will affect the other clubs in the lower tier in the league..

It's just an assumption that IF the reserves team can make it to the upper tier of the league structure, what will happen..

What do u meant by proven?? Producing world class players?? I think Spain produced the same amount of talented players like England do...btw do u see Spain winning any prestigious tournaments in the present and in the past??

About the reserve league, why don't the FA just combined all the reserves league in one big league instead of separating it into different regions..

The same thing can be said of Holland who have yet to win the World Cup despite churning out so many talented individuals. As it is, England have not had a decent left-winger since John Barnes... this coming from a nation with rich history where football is the no.1 sport. It can't be that everyone born in England is right-footed. Even now you see the likes of Phil Neville filling in at right-back with Carragher having to play on the left. It says that England is devoid of talent doesn't it? Spain may not have won anything but there are no shortage of players coming through the ranks there.

It affects the lower tier in Spain as well. There's always an effect no matter what system u use. But i agree that it might not be suitable in England.

Spain's underachievements have nothing to do with the talent they produce at youth level. I have my own idea why they are the biggest underachievers in international football but that's for another discussion. As of this time now Spain are the U-17 world champs...and u look at the current generation of Spanish players...saying England produces just as much as Spain in terms of talent is just being ignorant.

Countries like Holland and Portugal produce alot more talent than England do as well but u don't see them winning the major tournaments.

It's a decent suggestion but does it ensure that by doing that the quality is improved and not just doing it for numbers....