Benitez wants Spanish system



http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=4...+Spanish+system

And some feedbacks from some lower league clubs:

Benitez's plans slammed



http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=4...s+plans+slammed

The idea of reserves playing in lower divisions instead of the current reserves league sounds like a good idea. By doing so, the youngsters can get more experience & development by playing against better/more experienced players.

But the lower league clubs do have their points in opposing the idea. Some teams have to make way for the top clubs to send their reserves there.

So, what do you all think about Benitez's idea?

This post has been edited by alien2003: Mar 21 2007, 01:26 PM

More feedbacks on the idea...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/t...ool/6471413.stm

An article from BBC:

Serious reservations



http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A20964503?s_fromedit=1

This post has been edited by alien2003: Mar 21 2007, 01:30 PM

It is a proven system that has already been implemented in Spain. The problem with England is that youth and reserve team players do not play a sufficient number of competitive matches. Due to this, bigger clubs often have to farm out their players to smaller clubs for exposure and most of the time, they sign permanent deals and never return. How is this considered a success then? Investing on youth is a gamble and with the over inflated prices of English talent, clubs will readily let go of them for a reasonable fee and invest instead on proven foreign talent. I understand that not all the players are English but it does give English kids that much more of an opportunity. Why is investing in youth a gamble then? Simply because you don't get to asses them properly as they are playing against average opposition. By squaring them up against top quality opponents, you get to see how they will perform for the 1st team. By having reserves sides play competitive matches together, managers also have the opportunity to build their next team. By farming out players to various clubs, you don't get to play them together as a team.

As for how successful this system is, let's look at Barca and players who have graduated into their 1st team:

Albert Ferrer, Josep Guardiola, Sergi, Víctor Valdés, Carles Puyol, Andrés Iniesta and Lionel Messi,

Next is a list of players who graduated but had to move to other clubs to further their careers:

Iván de la Peña, David Sánchez, Luis García, Pepe Reina, Mikel Arteta, Cesc Fàbregas and Albert Luque.

Man Utd have arguably the best youth development programme in the Premiership. You of course have the likes of Crewe as well but let's just focus on the Premiership for now. Aside from the class of 92, there have been no quality graduates since. Barca's graduates in comparison have all played for top sides even if they didn't make the 1st team then. It means that they are good players but a team can only consist of so many players. Man Utd graduates like Jonathan Greening, Luke Chadwick, Ronnie Wallwork and John Curtis all left for average sides.

The smaller clubs are only complaining because if the big teams have their reserve sides playing in the league, there will be less space for them. I honestly think that a reserve side from any of the top flight sides can compete in the lower divisions despite what some of the managers from those divisions think. They are just afraid of being embarrassed. If you look at their objections, none of them have claimed that the system will not work. They are just against it because it doesn't work in their favour. It will however in my opinion, work for English football.

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Added on March 21, 2007, 1:56 pmIt is already implemented in France as well.

This is an important portion of the interview. You have posted objections made by several quarters of managers from the lower divisions and to quote Gillingham Chairman, Paul Scally, "It's insulting to suggest that a bunch of Liverpool kids could hack it as their own club in the Football League."

If you look at what Rafa said, "I was the manager of Castille, Real Madrid's reserve side, and I had players who were 18, 19 years old playing in the Spanish second division championship," he added.

"They were playing against men. They were winning and we finished sixth and fourth.


It means that the system works. These managers have accused Rafa of only looking out for the interest of his club (can you blame the man? he is our manager) but what about them? Aren't most of the objections based around protecting their own interest. What matters most is the bigger picture. Will this allow for the production of higher quality players?

Not long ago, the England manager had to be English and everyone questioned the appointment of SGE. Not long ago, all the top sides were managed by Englishmen or those from the UK. The game has since changed and has to continue to change for the better. People generally like to complain about change and this situation is no different.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Mar 21 2007, 01:56 PM

I can see where the 2 camps are coming from. You can't blame the smaller clubs for slamming Rafa because most of these clubs do have a history behind them. Why should they move aside to let youth teams compete with them. But i also agree that something must be done as the reserve league is very poor. Loaning players to smaller clubs is a solution but a very tricky one at that. First of all contracts must be penned out and sometimes these loaned players don't get games anyway. But Man Utd has successfully implemented that system to good effect as well so all is not as bleak as Rafa puts it.

At the end of the day there are pros and cons to having youth teams competing in the lower divisions. I won't say which system is better over the other as I have seen many farcical situations arise over in Spain.
Also i think it won't necessarily work in England cause the culture and history is very different between the 2 countries.

However i will admit that this might be a reason why youngsters in Spain are more technically and tactically adept compared to their English counterparts.

Anyway i just want to clarify that only Castilla (RM B side) are competing in the Segunda A division (equivalent of the Championship) and are fighting against relegation (4th from bottom). Most of the other B teams are actually competing in the Segunda B division which is the third division. So thinking that the youth teams will be able to compete neck and neck with men is foolish imo.

I do agree that the system has worked well in Spain and it could work for English football but I am just wonder whether it can be implemented in English football without causing problems.

Lets say all the 20 clubs in top flight sides send their reserve side to the lower divisions, that's additional 20 teams. So, unless they expand capasity of the lower division else like what the lower clubs said, some of the existing clubs might have to be pushed out and further down the league.

Plus from what I read, it seems the 'B' teams in Spain cant be promoted to upper leagues (correct me if I am wrong )? But in English lower leagues, team promotion is there. Lets say if Team A sent their reserve team to lower league and they won the league title and can be promoted to upper league, it might become a scenario where Team A vs Team A reserve in the upper league?

This post has been edited by alien2003: Mar 21 2007, 02:14 PM

And who plays in the 3rd Division? Women? If most of them are good enough to play for 1st or 2nd Division sides, why can't they play against them?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Mar 21 2007, 02:25 PM

The reason why the rule was implemented in Spain was to prevent the reserve team from facing the first team. The rule applies for cup competitions as well (meaning the youth sides can't compete in the cups). This rule didn't exist originally..but after Real Madrid met Castilla in a Copa del Rey final and proceeded to hammer them..they realised such a rule was necessary. If England were to implement the system a similar rule must be in place so even if the youth team finishes in a promotion place they will not get promoted to the same league as the first team.

This idea is interesting. It's good to benefit the young players in the youth academies of big clubs like United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal. But what will it cause to the other small clubs competing in the lower divisions?

England is unique because it has so many football clubs. I mean lots... of lots of football club. Don't forget there's the non-league clubs that are below the league (in the league, there's Premier League, Div 1, 2 and 3.. now the leagues below the Premier League are called the Coca Cola Championship teams). So it's very tricky to fit the reserves into the league system. Currently the reserves have their own league tournament and youth cup. I'm not sure if it's not benefiting the players at all but bear in mind that there have been many promising young players produced by clubs, especially United. But I would agree when you say this idea will benefit more for the young players but I don't see how you can slot them in into the current leagues.

Trying to be sarcastic eh...
Well let me tell u that the youth teams aren't exactly setting the third division alight. The situation is very different than in England. There are alot more club sides in England than there are in Spain. And the football scene in Spain is such that it is dominated by Real Madrid and Barcelona and that most Spanish youngsters dream of playing for either of the 2 sides. You don't have such passionate support for the local small clubs like they have in England. Why should these clubs be sacrificed to satisfy the whims of a foreigner?

but dun forget relegation and also promotion
u dun expect them to demolish the team once they get relegate right
also, not every team got the financial support for 2 league teams
but actually i kinda support this idea
reserve league is for those who are either old, or just for those who just came back from injury
not as competitive to gain experience for the youth

perhaps building team B can be optional

how bout juz create another division below conference and move all the reserve team there and juz let them play like its another division

the top 3 move up and the lower 3 on top move down, depends on the quality of the reserve team, in a few years they will be scatter among all the 4 division but they cant go up to premier league.

if the smaller clubs cant win the big clubs reserve then no point they fight to go up and play the big clubs first team right

in this way the small team wont lose their place if they fight for it and the reserve get to play more competitive match.

Talk is cheap.We should look at the result.
The result is there. You guys should look the current Spanish youth team. and dont forget, Spain u-17 squad is 2002, 2004, 2006 european champion.

Last month, European u-18 selection squad beat African u-18, 2-1.
Scorer:
Europe,
Bojan Krkic(FCB youth)
Aaron Niguez(VCF youth)
Africa,
Dipande Pierrick(VCF youth)
All come from Spanish youth system.

Its not just the big club reserves playing in segunda. I remember last season Malaga B also played in Segunda A. But ROFL, they were relegated to Segunda B because Malaga was relegated from Primera.The main and reserve team cannot play in the same league.



This post has been edited by RtP|DEV: Mar 21 2007, 03:45 PM

For the better good of English football. We are looking at this situation from the perspective of the small clubs. What about looking at it from the perspective of England. Will this not give English youth more opportunity to play against and therefore learn from top opposition. Managers are suggesting that top sides can still loan out their players to smaller clubs as has been going on for quite awhile now. What is the result of this? England have not won nor been in a major final for quite some time now. Worse still, they are struggling against the likes of Macedonia. Clearly there is a problem and it has to be addressed. How else for young players supposed to get competitive games?

from www.thisisanfield.com

Then what about the youths in the smaller clubs? Don't they deserve the same opportunity? Or is it that only the big clubs deserve to have youngsters playing for them. Changing your youth system doesn't necessarily mean that the standard of the English national team will improve. Look at Brazil. They don't have youth systems like the likes of England or Spain but they will always be one of the favourties come the WC.
It's not the youth system's fault that the England team is struggling in the national stage. The Spanish national team is struggling too...so how do u explain that?

I have always maintained that there isn't such a thing as a bad idea. All ideas can be improved on and this sounds like a possibility.

I'm not totally against the idea as I am a fan of Spanish football. But i think u're looking at it the wrong way; expecting it to improve the standard of English football drastically. Isn't the EPL regarded as one of the best leagues (if not the best if u believe some quarters of the English media) in the world?

As it is, there aren't enough English youngsters coming through the ranks. They get shipped out mostly. Why? Aren't they good enough? If so, why not? Could be that it is something in the water that affects the majority of Englishmen. Could also be that they don't play regularly enough at a higher level. As I have said, the Spanish are perennial underachievers. Having said that, Spanish teams still have a substantial composition of Spanish players as opposed to English ones, top sides of course.

Real Madrid themselves have Cassilas, Selgado, Ramos, Raul, Guti. Bravo, Helguera and Pavon to name a few, all of which are in and abouts the first team. Barca have Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Oleguer and Iniesta.

The argument is that foreign talent is cheaper but why can't English players coming through the ranks compete with them? I'm pretty sure clubs would rather not spend on foreign talent if they could.

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Added on March 21, 2007, 5:07 pmOf course it is but that is besides the point. The reason this idea was even brought up was for the reserve teams to get better exposure. It wasn't to improve the quality of the league.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Mar 21 2007, 05:07 PM

But the fact is that argument is true. Foreign talent is cheaper. The prices that clubs slap on English youngsters is ridiculous forcing most managers to look abroad. But that has nothing to do with the youth system in the first place. It's a result of the EPL taking the commercial aspect of football to new heights.

That's just lying to yourself. You brought up the issue about England being not good enough in the first place. It's all about the quality at the end of the day. If you just wanted exposure let the reserve teams play more games by having them play each other 4 times a season (which would be pointless of course).

At Liverpool, promising English youngsters like Welsh and Thompson were shipped out. Fringe players like Mellor and Warnock didn't make the grade. This has nothing to do with foreign talent being cheaper, just better. I'm not going to dwelve into the youth development system which I do not know much about. I'm just bringing up the notion that these players could have made the grade had they received better exposure.

It's not just about the exposure, it is about the quality of opposition they play against. They argument here is that reserve teams 1) don't play enough games, 2) don't play against quality opposition.