Disclaimer: I still count myself as a beginner. Barely have five-six months of experience under my belt. Decided to join the discussion here a few days ago after I found out the existence of this subforum.

So let's talk about beginners, and being one. We were all there at that point. I suppose I don't exactly have a main argument except a few things that I found online that were interesting. I want to also share my experience so far as I've been lifting. Maybe you guys can address the below points, or maybe share your experience as beginner?

Questions:

For example, why do trainers (Jason Blaha, in particular) stress that beginners should find a programme, stick with it, and don't mess anything (Add isos, change sets, reps etc.). I understand that the number of reps and sets change the workload on your muscle and hence affects whether the fibres strengthen or the muscles "pump" (Correct me if I'm wrong), but why the extreme rigidity? Is overworking a serious problem?

Another thing that I don't particularly understand is why the notion against "brosplits" aka the random choice of exercises to work separate muscle groups according to muscle group days. I mean, is there a real issue behind brosplits? This "programme" seems to be under a lot of fire from Reddit, Bodybuilding, etc.

Experience:

With that, I wanna talk about my experience. I've always wanted to lift (Since I was 16 lol), but I didn't have access to a gym due to me being in a boarding school. It was only when I was 19 I realised there were two pay-per-entry gyms around my area (Subang), then I told myself that unlike the previous years, I really don't have an excuse this time. So I've been an active lifter since. Started with brosplits (Shoot me) with no clear aim, then started StrongLifts a month back, today I'm switching to ICF 5x5 as it's a more wholesome programme with good volume distribution. I've set my goal to strength for now. Don't really know why, but maybe because I believe that strength is the basis for bodybuilding. Could be wrong.

Since I'm situated in a boarding prep college, my friends and I set up a home gym with a barbell and a few dumbbells. Kind of maxing out on the weights we have already, so I'm planning to go to the college gym. When I'm home, I go to either Blitz or War3house. I'll be a more frequent War3house goer, because they have more bars. Also signed up to a Celebrity Fitness gym that's opening in Mid-June.

Also, I've met a bunch of guys along the way. There was this dude who was really helpful when I started, and taught me how to squat and deadlift. Also taught me some variations. I've also seen skinny guys with sibeh so high face staring at people intensely while doing 5 lbs curls (Funniest thing ever). And unfortunately, the arrogant "musclehead" types, but they're really a minority. Most people I've interacted with were nice.

Anyone wanna share their beginner experience/story?

This post has been edited by afif95: May 5 2015, 12:17 PM

SL is pure rubbish while ICF 5x5 is absolute trash. Please don't do either.
Do this instead: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159678631

Doing fullbody 3x/ week in 3 years will give you equal results of doing bro-splits 4~5x/week for 5 years. Bro-splits are not optimum, progress is much slower due to frequency issue. Your chest does not take 7 fucking days to recover and doing 5 different exercises for chest will just make you improve slower on key exercises. Fullbody can direct focus on key lifts like flat bench, incline bench, weighted pullups and be godlike in 3 years.

Here is my beginner journey: https://www.facebook.com/SkinnyToBuff90day

I ran my own program that I wrote myself. I am now Intermediate lifter able to bench slightly above my body-weight.

I've seen this before and I'll start today. That programme seems to have a more equal focus.

Ahh I see, so it's about the progress speed. I like compound exercises. I feel like I'm always working more than doing isolations.

I'm sorry.. but what? You started lifting in January...

As I'm aware:
1x bw bench = Intermediate
1.5x bw bench = Advance
2x bw bench = Elite

1.5x bw squat = Intermediate
2x bw squat = Advance

These are very standard across alot forums.

Bro i would suggest go search darklight journal workout. Probably the best workout journal and he gives his diet.
Don't follow this routine that armesh skinny guy gave you. You're wasting ur time

Wow dude trying to get some beginner advice suddenly gives program as if he's the certified personal trainer I disagree on your replies in fact you should eat more and not thinking about getting FAT. LOL not even close to one year calls himself intermediate lifter

How about you eat more dude? Then come back here until u become buff not skinny.

Are you like fucking stupid? I didn't give OP my program...

Where I give OP my program?

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 6 2015, 12:13 AM

Lel i suggest u go bulk up first not trying to be the buff guy here as if like training few years

And did u even read my reply? I told him not to follow ur advice because ur too skinny and scrawny.

This post has been edited by degraw1993: May 6 2015, 12:20 AM

Lol, you are confuse. Those number are for people who competes in powerlifting competition. What we are talking here is gym experience. I have been lifting for 2 1/2 years with 1 1/2 years hiatus in the middle of that lifting period and I still considered myself an intermediate.

p/s: Yes it's true that you bench 1xBW but that's 132lbs according to 1RM calculator (theoretically) and that's not even a plate.
p/s/s: No hating but there are a lot of experienced lifters here yet they don't proudly tell their total and on what level of lifting they are currently in.

This post has been edited by alien9: May 6 2015, 11:35 AM

I feel "gym experience" is useless. I had a friend/workout partner who gym'ed for 8 months +. After 8 months he could not even bench press his bodyweight and didn't look like he lift. He was a tall, big boned gifted mesomorph. Once after 8+ months into "training" he asked me... "Armesh, what is calorie? Apple got calorie ah?", I will remember that question until I die.

Then there's the "abangs" in my gym including the gym owner who's been lifting like 6~8 years I not sure. Steroid user. He talks/beliefs/advocates crap like "mass untuk sizing, protein untuk cutting" and tells me to bulk on mass gainers cause then 80% of the weight gained will be muscle compared to food only 20% muscle. Then there's also this fat guys who's been training maybe like 3 years, look like shit and heir 1RM bench is ~ their bodyweight. It's a horrible broscience environment. Nobody knows what is a small surplus.

So this is why I normally use the Powerlifting standards to categorize people. The bench is pretty accurate, 2x body-weight bench is truly an elite feat, and I use relative strength cause you can't cheat relative strength, it locks you.

I exclusively very strictly take all my advice from elite natural lifters who are almost at their genetic max, cause they are truly experienced in lifting. A natural who attains a 1.5x bodyweight bench in 1 year of training is light years ahead of knowledge compared to some fat guy who run bro splits, trains for pump and get 225lbs bench after 2 years.

Dan Green, world record powerlifter, been lifting for 10 years plus, Raw Total with and without Wraps for weight class 220: 2110 lbs, humble as hell.

Eric Lillibridge, Raw Total with and without Wraps for weight class 275: 2380 lbs, holder of Junior WR Deadlift: 865lbs, humble as hell.

Mark Bell, creator of Slingshot, benched 771lbs for weight class 275lbs, lifting for 20 years plus, humble as hell.

Armesh, gained optimum amount of muscle mass in his 90 days skinny to buff challenge, bench 1xBW @ 132lbs, just been lifting for 5 months, ego, brags quite a lot and gives advice like elite experience lifter.

Probably you should learn how to be humble from them as well.

p/s: No hating on you, just my observation and everyone as well. You can pick sides, be a Pacquiao OR a Mayweather, right now you are the latter.

This post has been edited by alien9: May 6 2015, 03:18 PM

There let me highlight that important reply for him. Yes i do agree if u noticed the amount of replies when ppl asking fr advice doesn't matter when it comes to food or lifting really full of ARROGANCE and BOAST as if he's the most expericenced lifter.

Dude just workout for 3 months not only close even for year talks like crap and still skinny and scrawny. I only see bones in his physique and no muscle

those number doesnt mean anything, we all have difference structure of physique

like me for example

i got long arm, long femur so deadlift is my thing but my bench is shitty

Err but Pacman lost while big mouth Mayweather won....

I also curious how to measure progress ie how do you know whether someone is beginner or intermediate or sifu? Aesthetic (since we are not powerlifters) vs poundage or how many months been going to the gym?

This post has been edited by rakyat: May 6 2015, 04:41 PM

Yeah, pacman lost but obviously you don't grasp what I'm saying there.

I also same. Tall, skinny, 5.8 inch wrist, long arms, insane deadlift leverage but shitty bench leverage. But I'm 100% confident we can get a 2x bw bench if we train hard and consistently for 3~4 years . Think positive.


Relative strength = Aesthetics.


Arrogant, big ego, show off. I'm just called this cause I'm not big, like a double standard whereby a skinny guy cant give advice even if its right. I don't give dumb crap advice. If I do you can point it out.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 6 2015, 04:57 PM

Nope. I don't do that. I don't really give a hoot about how a person looks. Infact, I respected, applaud and I like your skinnytobuff challenge as it's a good experiment on what actually a beginner can achieve in that short period but that all gone with your follow up attitude.

Give me 3 posts from forumers who have respectable avatar of themselves that show the exact tone that you tried to convey below:

p/s: You have 4 reds (bad manners) in a single post. Can't imagine if you are unable to notice it by now.

This post has been edited by alien9: May 6 2015, 05:06 PM

Afif

U mentioned a celebrity fitness going to open in mid June. Where about will it be? You talking bout Damen?
Is it confirmed?

I used to work out in fitness first Summit but now that it has closed been looking for a new gym. Was thinking of warehouse but if a new gym is on the way maybe I just wait and take a hiatus

Just don't bother la bro Even if u said that he still gonna be arrogant skinny prick

Don't get me wrong. You probably have an issue with his physique, I'm not.

There are something in weightlifting that requires you to have experience about it and there are something that requires you to be knowledgeable about it without needing to have that sought after physique.

I don't mind if someone is skinny and he educates me about mobility, rehabilitation, proper pre and post stretching. Those things require extensive amount of knowledge and not big and muscular body.

I don't have an issue and i don't even give a shit with his physique. He just needs to learn some manners and respect.

I just notice I'm also
benching my BW
squating 1.1 of my BW
I think, I sux still and lots of questions in my head requires answer and experiment

I'm talking about the one in Main Place. They were having this offer thing going on which cut membership price to 139 from 199. But only for the first 500 members.

War3house is pay-per-entry tho and for students it's 10 ringgit with valid student ID. I'd go to Blitz SS15 if I were you. One-of-each equipments, but flat RM 8. Go during off-peak.

I feel the same! There's so much to read and research. I digest it one by one, slowly. Weightlifting, after all, is a journey.

And guys, can we keep the discussion to beginner experiences/discussion/Q&A please? That is, after all, the point of this thread.

am a beginner myself and currently doing SL 5x5. it has its own ios & android apps too which is nifty. cba to read on other programs (well, too lazy actually ). i just wanna gain more strength and to be in shape.

what the...fark....

this is so far the most rubbish thing you have said across this forum, and I dont even want to know what other shiet you have said in other forums.

I pull a 10 fucking ton lorry, dead lift a car, flippin 400kg tyre @90kg BW and I still just consider myself intermediate.

its rather a mix of both

a good player does not mean a good coach

a good coach does not mean a good player

a good indication is a mixture of both, he got good poundage, and if you ask him question, he answer with good explanation.

some guys are aesthetic/strong because he got a coach that tell him what to do A to Z

some self proclaim smart ass like armesh tell you what to do A to Z and still weaker than my GF

hi afif

I highly recommend you to read aworkoutroutine blog, i dont agree some of his idealogy but most of it are really accurate, good, and very unbiased concept about exercise.

I been lifting on and off for a total of 3 years, with no coach and being naturals. like you, I read a lot of contradicting articles from the net.

I am been losing weight from 105 kg to 75 kg, and up to 95 kg again and now hovers around 90kg +-, only recently I found my true love more towards strength than aesthetic, after all, starving myself, posing and dancing on the stage wearing just an underwear and fake tan is really not what I want. I join strongman competition last year and fall in love with it, strength sport is more about beating the previous you, than beating your competitors.

everytime you go to the gym, you strive to lift heavier than your last workout(cycle). your body change really fast, but your strength stay longer and carry over in your daily life, when you get stronger, theres more in life, sports and event that you can join, such as strongman, tug of war, power lifting, MMA etc, and its certainly more fun than starving yourself preparing to go posing on stage. no offend to body builders here.

perhaps you might want to explore the world of strength sports, you will grow hard ass muscles anyway.

big guys are humble, small guys are arrogant

its not a secret

most, if not all beginners lifters, start lifting with here and there, with no specific program in mind. heck they dont even know the name of the exercises and cant even perform the exercise perfectly even you teach them physically, some exercise like close grip bench press can target different muscle altho performing almost look alike movement.

this beginner lifters dont even do bro split, they saw big guys A doing shoulder press, then they follow, then they saw big guy B doing leg press, he follow, then he saw some cross fit dude doing some skipping pull up, he follow.

afterward, after he touches almost all the stuff in the gym (probably leave the squat rack alone)and after a few chats with the brahs like armesh who tell you should do this do that dont do that cuz its shit, he will proceed to do bro split, monday the international chest day, tuesday arms day, then back, then leg, then the mandatory off days on saturday and sunday. which is nice cuz the gym will be empty then.

we aaallll been in this situation.

my advice is find out what you want first, do you just want to get ripped or to get strong or to get big? or to get big and strong? or just wanna sweat out?

then learn the fundamentals of what to do to achieve your goals, for example, if you want to be body builders, there will be more isolation work, high volume, low intensity, and of course the diet.

if you want to get strong, there will be more compound work, less volume, high intensity, fatigue management, plateau management etc.

if you want both, mix and hybrid of the both.

in my opinion, Body building is easier to accomplish than Strength lifting.

It doesnt work this way
Coaches are knowledgeable, maybe , could be
The strong guy could be knowledgeable also, but he could also be genetically strong, in alot of cases, they are genetically strong
Alot of them can lift heavy ass weight without coaches and without knowledge in lifting, these knowledges only makes them stronger on top of what they already are, sad to say but strength is mainly about genes, how you look on the other hand, shredded or not, could be improved by having knowledge
An example, just like some people can read once and remember everything, some had to read twice, he was born this way
No matter how hard a women train, she will never outlift a man, she was born this way
Same case happens in animal kingdom, no matter how hard a cat tries it will never have the strength of a bear

you say a woman cant outlift a man?

my GF can outlift armesh (same weight)

and my dog scared of my cat.

your argument is invalid.

Thanks for all your posts, man! Been very helpful. I've checked out the blog. Gonna read more articles every now and then. Seems like awesome resource.

Yup, I am aiming for strength, but maybe not strongman level. Planning to join a boxing club soon, so I thought training strength + some bodybuilding would help. Slowly learning things as I go haha

I left SL a few days ago. Ran it for 1+ month. Progression is really fast, maxing out on the home gym as of current. Just ran my second Fierce 5 workout. Liking the development so far. Might stick with it. SL, after all, only has a few exercises. Not saying more is better, but upper volume is really lacking. But it's a good base!

isolation body building work out is not going to help you with gaining strength and your boxing much, dont waste time and energy.

focus on strength and boxing conditioning workout will be more suitable, you will still gain muscle, I dont think the shredded boxers out there do any bro split.

so your best bet going to the gym is more on strong push work out like bench and overhead press to improve your punching power, and outdoor explosive(sprinting, vertical jump, prowler push), agility (zig zag running, reflex ball) and endurance(jogging, jumping rope) training, shadow box etc.

Quit falmming lar. The standards we put on ourselfs are very personal. Especially in bodybuilding where there is no 1 universal scale. Alex from Alpha Destiny considers anyone who can't bench 225×5, squat 315×5, and deadlift 405×5 a beginner, Greg from Kinobody only considers you elite if you can incline bench 1.25*bw for 5 reps, 0.55*bw pullups for 5 reps and 0.9 x bw OHP for 5 reps. Exrx strength standards scale is also different.

That's why I even made the scale I was using clear on page 1. So as you see my "intermediate" meaning is much lower in standards compared to your meaning of "intermediate". Heck, to me you're more like an elite lifter. It's a personal thing and you can't simply insult someone when they already made clear the scale they are using, which in my case is a shitty ~132lbs bench. I never fake claimed any absurd lifts, and there's nothing to be proud of my shitty lifts.

It's like I say you're a fake liar cause you claim yourself "intermediate" lifter cause I consider you as elite. But of course I won't say that cause to your eyes "elite" may mean a different thing.

For me being humble is simply knowing there are people around you that might know more than you and opening/reading books, workout journals, articles of people better than you cause there is conform somethings you dunno. Even in this forum got like 3~4+ members far ahead than me.

Really curious how much your GF can lift on key lifts. Girls who train real are 1 in a million.


Do Fierce 5 conform you'll do fine. But F5 also the progression might feel abit fast.

After like 2~3 months of F5 you can move to Alpha Destiny Novice Program: http://outalpha.com/the-out-alpha-novice-program/
It uses rep progression and more push focused (suitable for your boxing purpose).

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 8 2015, 01:44 AM

first, you dont call yourself and intermediate lifter when you lift less than a year, any strong(er) guy can lift the so called lifting standards because they are strong to begin with but with shitty forms and no knowledge of proper exercising. you are able to pull the so called BW x weight standard of lifting because you are as light as a feather to begin with. some school kids can do pull ups easily, some adult strong guy cant even do it, so school kids are intermediate lifters?

an intermediate lifter should possess at least more than a year of (continuous) lifting and with the adequate knowledge of forms.

an elite lifters are paid/sponsored athletes, lifting full time, and compete on a national level.

1) Because there's much to learn, young one. But seriously though, it's because when one is starting out, they can't really differentiate a lot of things and don't really understand the purpose of this and that ( I'm phrasing things vaguely because, there's just too many factors). So the general idea is to always have a new guy just start out on something and start figuring things out later on. Basically, one step at a time.

2) The thing about the internet is that, there's always a trend. If you're not following the TREND, you're under fire. That's about it.

My Personal opinion is that, "bro" training have their place in ones regime, everyone's shouting about squatting 3x BW, Benching 5x BW, Deadlifting 10x BW and if you're curling and calf pressing, you're a wuss that needs to grow a pair bla bla bla bla bla.

Here's the thing, it's good to base your regimen around squatting, benching and deadlifting. These 3 movements covers the widest range of muscle groups while in motion. Best bang for buck . However, if you're lagging in your arms/calves/core, no amount of squatting, benching and deadlifting will help to bring them up on par, like ever.

Why?

Because there just isn't enough stimulation and volume to stimulate growth on that particular smaller muscle group. *yeah yeah you use your bis to stablize your bench, but you wouldn't practice banging your girlfriend to have jacked calves right?* Which is why, "bro" training has its place. Curls, Presses, Abs, you name it.
I'm rambling at this point.

But hey, what do I know? I'm not even squatting, benching OR dead lifting - *NEWB ALERT*. I'm just some guy on the internet who likes lifting stuff. *or so I say*

This post has been edited by razorboy: May 8 2015, 09:39 AM

Just my 2 cents about bro split. I assume your bro split is training each muscle group once per week. So for eg,
monday - chest
tuesday - back
wednesday - shoulder
thursday - arms
friday - legs
sat sun -rest

At first you might realise it is nothing wrong with this routine especially when you just started weight lifting. But if you look into exercise choices, you will see the lack of balancing.

So if you dedicate a day to your chest, flat bb, incline db, hammer strength decline press, dips, variation of flyes. That's about 5 exercise just for 2 major chest muscle(pec major and pec minor). I'm ignoring those smaller muscles used for the moment.

And your leg day, bb squat, leg extension, leg press, leg curl, db lunge, calf press. About 6 exercises seems just nice but you did realise that's for your quad(outer and inner), hams, glutes(maximus,medius,minimus), and calves. Do you think those exercise is enough to develope 4 major muscles group(more than 7 minor muscle groups)?

I summarize it for easier understanding. The main problem with bro split:
1. Tend to spend too much time on smaller muscle group and neglecting bigger muscles group such as legs and back. Your legs might need 1.5 hours to train but your arms might need just 30 mins but yet too many ppl spending same time training arms and legs.
2. Lack of balancing (more pushing exercises than pulling where more pulling is needed for better shoulder health)
3. Poor choice of exercise selection (Too much isolation)
4. Lack of progressive overload (progressing about 2.5kg-5kg per week is slow for BEGINNER)(some might disagree but IMHO, strength is relative to muscle mass, the stronger you are, the bigger you are)
5. Your muscles doesn't require that much volume for growth or "tearing" them. So speding 1 hour and 2 hours in the gym just to train your chest might give you same result. This lead to next point.
6. Your muscles doesn't require 1 whole week to recover. So together with point 5, why don't you train them twice or more per week when they can be train more often?

Most of my point are made focusing on beginner. Advanced lifter knows what works for them and they know how to balance their routine. If you know what you're doing, go ahead with your own split. Only you will know what works best for you.

Peace =)

Edit : http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=139911893 This links probably clear your confuse about fullbody vs split.

This post has been edited by -ccy-: May 8 2015, 02:12 PM

Here is my notion on fullbody vs splits for beginners (me included). Taking me as an example, weakling with no knowledge and experience other than the internet. Fullbody workout plan like SS / SL have a very clear linear progression path, and with only a few exercises its much easier to track. Once you workout your strength to a certain level then only you swith to splits. Find it pointless doing splits, with low weight, and slow progression (should you do one part per week)

Fullbody programs will build your strength, once you have that as a base and most of the time with a few months of training you will a clearer picture of what your goals are then you may transition into splits.

I wasted many months doing worthless splits, getting frustrated of why am i not making progressions, lost motivation and momentum on the way. Thereafter discovered Stronglifts. Despite the negativity, I manage to progress further squat/deadlift/press in 3 months, than the many months doing splits. What works for me does not necessary work for you, you'll have to try them out. Whatever you do if you're progressing, you're doing it right.

This post has been edited by db07mufan: May 8 2015, 04:59 PM

ArmeshShow me your lifts. Vids if you don't mind. Am curious. I'm elite in some lifts and advanced in the rest.

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/...thStandards.htm

-------> Intermediate

A person who has engaged in regular training for up to two years. The intermediate level indicates some degree of specialization in the exercises and a high level of performance at the recreational level.

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/...hStandards.html

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/...tStandards.html

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/...tStandards.html

I took a long time to do 165kg at 71kg bw.



This post has been edited by darklight79: May 8 2015, 06:04 PM

Let me show you how I build some of my boys up. One of them is top 5 Mr KL lightweight who is under my wing currently. And yes, I have a FEMALE client in this video who outlifts you. She was using "experience" till I optimized her training. And she was lifting pretty heavy before this. I guess experience is "useless"?

My old mentor was Terry Gallyot, who was an old school bodybuilder. And without him, my training would never have made leaps and bounds. Being strong isn't a requirement to be a good bodybuilder. It does help but you don't have to be alpha strong as fuark to win on stage.





This post has been edited by darklight79: May 8 2015, 06:27 PM

So where's this skinny to buff guy? Still looking for some research or any specific routine to reply on darklight? Poor guy

... first and foremost, I do agree Armesh is a bit loud in his own opinion - and that outta the way ...

... I have to say Armesh is a skinny guy with a small frame, but he did improve on his build -- in terms of muscles and not fats. I think the word "buff" is inappropriate at this point of time, because it actually means "big" or "huge" to most people. I did say he won't achieve the "buff" in 90 days when he first posted, but if he does or can manage to continue in his form, and diet without any complication in his workout; he will start to "buff" after the 8 month or 1 year time. This is if only he can actually follow through to maintain his fat percentage between 13 ~ 16 percent. In my opinion at this point of time he is lean and fit. I think I have seen really-really "skinny" or "fat" people with no build at all in the gym ...

... I have given my opinion above because my stat (Height: 167cm, Weight: 56kg, Fat: 14.5 percent, Muscle: 43 percent) is about the same as Amesh; except the height. My progress is doing just fine at this point of time and I am just 8 month into gym time. Just for the record -- I am already in my 50s in age ... ... so, everybody for the weekend ...

This post has been edited by esy: May 10 2015, 03:28 PM

Bruhhhh

Wow are you free next week? I wanna train with you

the ego going on here is astounding.



*runs away*

Got them vids for you bro.
Here: https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f...0#entry74352222



Oh shit, you misunderstood me. "Gym experience" means diff thing compared to gym experience, that's why i used the " ".

Real gym experience is extremely valuable. Gym experience allows you to know how to hit specific muscle effectively, recovering from injuries, effectiveness of advance training methods such as HVT, advance nutrition knowledge like IF/CKD/ TKD/Low protein/Leptin stuff, and above all designing Optimum workout routines.

I've learnt alot from real gym experienced also. I used to be the guy who recommends SS, SL 5x5, ICF 5x5 and will say ICF 5x5 is better for size since high volume (stupid me). But once I went to gym and ran ICF for 4 months, I learnt so much from that disaster. It thought me what volume is realistic when designing Novice programs which I could have never known without getting under the bar myself.

That's why if you design a program it will always beat mine cause you know the "feel" better from your years and years of exp unlike me. Same goes in things like injury prevention,recovery and mobility, you surely know better due to exp.

Sorry for the confusion. My bad. Hope it's cleared.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 11 2015, 05:50 PM

You've only been lifting for 5 months. You ran ICF for 4 months, and presumably you've tried all the other programs like SS, SL. And now you write programs.

I cannot brain this

Oh lol. I lifted for like total of ~9 months actually.

The ICF 5x5 story was around last year April when I started lifting for the first time. Did it from April 2014 - July 2014 on a strong bulk. Went from 55kg ~ 62kg and ended up skinny fat. Then after making almost no upper-body gains I tried All Pros Begginer routine for 1 month.

By then my already severe Acne Vulgaris got real bad (my face was fucked, chest acne, and horrible back acne that it became painful to sit on chair and wear bag).... so I had to give up bodybuilding & I got sharp depression for 1 week.

Learning from total failure and making 0 upper-body gains from ICF 5x5, and now having some "feel" of the bar. I dedicated following months towards studying basic programming/workout design. Nothing too serious.

Few months passed, college ended, and December 2015. I made the firm commitment that I'm gonna get the body I want no matter what, went to my dermatologist, and requested Accutane/Isotetrin 20mg per day. This is a very powerful controlled drug which is a permanent cure for acne. So now on Isotetrin 20mg/day I can eat anything I want and I'm pimple clear.

Learning from my past failure, gaining basic programming knowledge and with my acne taken care of, I dieted back down to 54kg, on 9 Jan 2015 I came back with a 90 day transformation. Here I am today. That's the story.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 12 2015, 02:22 AM

What did you mean by no upper body gains on ICF? Stuck on your weights or you don't feel you packed on muscle on the mirror

Stall on weight. Triceps could never recover. Bench 5RM only increased 5kg in 4 months. Nearing the 4 month mark started feeling over-training symptoms from doing 5X5 Squats with 5RM 3x per week for 4 months. Squats progress started going backward (over-training) & lower back felt it's gonna snap. Felt sick, under-recovered and dropped the madness.

and you said the routine is rubbish just because it doesn't work on you

I understand there are differences between people like how some people can grow well with low volume, some grow only on high volume, some can tolerate high volume and others who will just puke on high volume.

ICF 5x5 is more like an extreme case, so majority people will experience the same issue as me unless you're the top 1% with godlike genetics. SL 5x5 might work well for quite some people due to realistic volume but it lacks accessory work and balance.
The linked routine is way better than these 2, so might just pick the better option.

I did 1 cycle of AllPro's and I made almost no gains on it too. I felt the volume was too low for any growth. But I didn't comment on it cause the program itself is reasonable/realistic and it might just not be suitable for me.

hi, i need some advise on how to reduce my bodyfat and what is the correct way/training to do it. currently my bodyfat is around 33% and im 181cm 116kg what im doing now is reduced my calorie intake and just started cardio and weightlifting. my routine is like :

monday, wednesday, friday - weightlifting + jog on treadmill 10min at the end of gym session.
tuesday, thursday, saturday - jogging 1/2hour.

my current meal is like:

breakfast - 3 eggs + 5 tb of rolled oats with milk
lunch - half tapau chicken + half tapau mixed vegi (brocolli,cauliflower,carrot)
dinner - almost same like lunch.

am i doing it in right way? im confused now whether to bulk/build strength first or cut the fat down 1st. because if im on caloric deficit, its impossible for me to grow my muscle right? at the same time im also afraid to lose my muscle and become a skinny fat.

please help me with some advise

Yours is same like me..

35BF 181cm 115kg

Just to share my hantam workout started on 2nd March

Daily HIIT cardio - 30 seconds sprint 90 seconds walk for 45minutes + Mon Wed Fri weightlifting (Sat Sun rest)

Meal:

breakfast - 3 eggs + wholegrain bread
Snacks - Fruit + nuts + Infused water
Lunch - Half Brown rice + Chicken breast + spinach (daily taken)
Snacks - Biscuit + infused water
Dinner - Fruit + 3 eggs + meat
Before sleep - Biscuit

Drink - 4 liters of plain water + chia seed

Cheatday - Hantam eat but make sure not over than required calorie

After 4 weeks - 34BF 112kg

At first I thought of bulking first.. Then on 2nd thought I want to cut.. Later I found out why don't I bulk and cut at the same time?

Sorry am not able to give you good advise.. Just want to share my workout since your weight and height almost the same as mine..

Any sifu please correct me if i'm wrong..

yes, for fat-beginners, it is possible to grow muscle and lose fat and gain strength all at the same time even on a caloric deficit.


as a beginner, when you lift heavy, you will grow muscle, when you grow muscle, you will gain strength, when you gain strength, your metabolism will increase, when your metabolism increase, you will burn fat.

your energy and calorie needed for the protein synthesis to happen will come from your body fat (until a certain level). just eat enough protein, base on your diet, its not enough protein for a guy as large as you.

lift heavy, eat well. it will all come down together.

This post has been edited by ah_suknat: May 13 2015, 03:59 PM

Fixed

This post has been edited by alien9: May 13 2015, 04:09 PM

you are seeing results, so whats the problem? just keep on doing it.

just dont do HIIT everyday.every other day is fine. I also wont recommend to sprint/jump or any high impact cardio for anyone over 100kg, as its very taxing on your knees and you will develop osteoarthritis, try HIIT cycling, swimming, or lift fast(superset) instead.

Yes. I'm seeing the result and am happy with it..

Thanks for your advise on HIIT.. Will try not to sprint daily moving forward..

However, I did lift fast (superset) but now feel like my tissue koyak ady.. Is it supposed to be like that? Now feel very hard to lift anything at all and my hand cannot straight like normal..

my bet is the sensation that you feel is DOMS or Delay Onset Muscle Soreness, you cant straighten your hand because the muscle become stiff. usually happen if you dont stretch and warm up before and after exercise, or you going too hard, or you perform the exercise wrongly, or all of the above.

but give it some time, eat well, dont work the muscle that is pain, apply ice, and it will recover. the body is an amazing thing that can regenerate it self.

I don't judge people but people in the gym or people into bodybuilding do judge your appearance. Just like how you judge other people in your gym.

Bodybuilding isn't much about how much you can lift. It's about how much you look like you can lift.

Given your current size Armesh, I doubt many will listen to you. Even if you have a lot of experience.

This post has been edited by janson_kaniaz: May 14 2015, 06:54 AM

Indeed.. I didnt do any stretching before and after lifting.. Haha my bad..

Right now ice gel pack is my best friend.. And I took Paras pill for muscle relaxant. Does this pill ok?

ok thanks. will try it 1st.

I don't believe that a skinny guy cannot lift correctly and a big guy is doing everything right.

However the day he said, "The things you are doing is absolute fucking rubbish", I loose all my respect towards him, though he does dish out all useful links.

I didn't mention anything about who is right or who is wrong.

Anyone can talk from morning till night but people are more inclined to listen from the person who looks like he's benching 300lbs, not the one who can bench 300lbs but looks like he's benching 100lbs.

It is what it is. Bodybuilding is all about look and appearance, whether you like it or not.

Dafuq is all this, I came in here to look for advice for beginner lifters/recommended programme. But what I see is all argument.

Just asking, any link or name of the programme best suit beginner lifters(just started for like 2 months). I am skinny to begin with, and of course with belly fat like everyone does.
I can see that many people recommend SL 5x5, is there any other recommended programme? I am aiming to gain strength, and muscle as well.

Oh, thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by AnythingK: May 14 2015, 11:44 AM

Apparently you should start at the pinned (sticky) thread. Then you would understand why the argument actually happened in the first place.

Ok, will do.

lol. its been like this since i frequent visit here as welll. all forummer like syok sendiri. pour whole bunch of info, yet d real question r vry simple.


since u jus started, my advice is jus go in n do bro split. touch here n there to familiarise everything. get some baseline on every exercise. after dat u can try out candito linear program (3types to suits ur needs) 1. strength/control =for general strength n learning proper skills. 2. strength/power=towards developing explosive strength 3.strength/hyperthrophy = towards bodybuilder.

This post has been edited by low yat 82: May 14 2015, 12:13 PM

If you ask me, I judge people by having some conversations with them. If some ripped big 80kg 12% body-fat guy tells me to "get some isi" before hitting the gym so I have some fat to turn it into muscle then it obviously shows where he stands - this happened 2x already. On the other hand if I bump into someone like 62kg 15% bf, but the guy and me have a nice conversation on lean bulking and logic behind it, shows dude knows his shit.
Trusting someone based on physique is like shooting yourself on the foot. Sadly, anyone who's 70kg 10% bf or better in my gym is juicing, the juice usage at my area is rampant. The other day some guy at the gym was telling me his friend's personal trainer injects steroids for his friend. Makes it pointless to judge by physique.

I don't really mind if people listen to me or not, it's the way it is. I'm just a recreational poster, can't take some Internet forum seriously. I'll be more worried if my progress stalled lol.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 14 2015, 12:37 PM

malaysia bodybuilding is shit , all about juicing lol

you juice bigger = the more knowledge you got

malaysia bodybuilding is shit , all about juicing lol

you juice bigger = the more knowledge you got

ok this is about discussion for beginners.
keep it clean.
means less rubbish and personal insults and trolls.

My area yea. It's ALOOOT. If the guy is 70+ kg, 10% bf, 90% chance he conform take one. You can just talk to some guys and easily get it. Sometimes they'll be just talking about their use in open. My area are all ghetto gyms.

Need to have conversations and screen this guys first.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 14 2015, 01:02 PM

a 70kg can't have 10% bf?

Didn't you say in another thread that you don't like to be bothered?

Haha, they have the body to actually prove their point, so no hard feeling there.

Actually I had been touching every where for the past 2 months(i really playing and fooling around, mimic what others do, rojak rojak)and kinda familiar with all the basic d. Guess I'll look up into the Candito Linear program, the pinned thread, as well as SL 5x5, and try out see which best suit me.

Thanks a lot!

Of course can. Even 75KG 8% bodyfat also 100% can naturally. If good genetics even 80kg can.

But there's 2 ways to reach there... if you know what i mean.

Normally I dun talk to anyone lar, just that guys talk to/advise me first. So i just do a 5 min convo, be friendly and probe them abit.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 14 2015, 01:55 PM

Fuck me! I can't understand your reply. Just now you specifically said "If the guy is 70+ kg, 10% bf, 90% chance he conform take one " now suddenly you add on how he long he took to achieve that, then what after this?

This post has been edited by alien9: May 14 2015, 01:59 PM

Mods just close this thread la TS already gt his advice

I break it down lar:

1. Untrained guy goes to gym for 4~5 months, ends up 70+kg 10% bodyfat... obvious use. We know very well how long it takes to get 70kg+ 10% bf. So "how long" is a very good indicator.

2. 75~80kg 10% bodyfat (almost genetic max) guy talks the bro'est of bro-science. On conversation doesn't even seem to know BB basics like lean bulking, IIFYM, calorie deficit, small surplus. Advocates things like dun eat rice to lose weight. High probability user.

3. Near genetic max (~72kg 10% bf), took 2.5 ~ 3 years to attain said physique. On conversation knows BB basics very well. Says minimal bro-science but he states that's his personal experience. High chance natural.

PM me if anything. Won't be posting here anymore.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 14 2015, 02:27 PM

cool! so its time to mess awhile wit barbell as well! but but... u playin around or fooling also need at least hav some structure loo.. d most simple is brosplit wit drop sets / pyramid sets. it starts wit major compound move bfore going towards isolations move.

2months not enough la. add another 4months more like it. i fooling around roughly 1 year b4 use candito program.

Yea, I had been playing around for the first 2 months, then the past 1 month I joined other guy in their training.

Basically we did 1 day focusing on chest, another day focusing on shoulder. Well we did the normal bench press, both incline and decline, and a few other rojak 1. Same with shoulder, normal training using both barbell and dumbbell. Then I'd mix some squat and deadlift in between of those training.

But now I felt what I did was too rojak, and there is no fixed programme, felt like I am lifting for the sake of lifting. No plan, nothing.

That's why now I need a proper plan, a proper programme, a proper goal.

wahaha..ok la. so fas already bosan. but u sure u ready to jump on program? most of d program, doesnt needs u to train daily. mostly 3-4days a week.