SL is pure rubbish while ICF 5x5 is absolute trash. Please don't do either.
Do this instead: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159678631

Doing fullbody 3x/ week in 3 years will give you equal results of doing bro-splits 4~5x/week for 5 years. Bro-splits are not optimum, progress is much slower due to frequency issue. Your chest does not take 7 fucking days to recover and doing 5 different exercises for chest will just make you improve slower on key exercises. Fullbody can direct focus on key lifts like flat bench, incline bench, weighted pullups and be godlike in 3 years.

Here is my beginner journey: https://www.facebook.com/SkinnyToBuff90day

I ran my own program that I wrote myself. I am now Intermediate lifter able to bench slightly above my body-weight.

As I'm aware:
1x bw bench = Intermediate
1.5x bw bench = Advance
2x bw bench = Elite

1.5x bw squat = Intermediate
2x bw squat = Advance

These are very standard across alot forums.

Are you like fucking stupid? I didn't give OP my program...

Where I give OP my program?

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 6 2015, 12:13 AM

I feel "gym experience" is useless. I had a friend/workout partner who gym'ed for 8 months +. After 8 months he could not even bench press his bodyweight and didn't look like he lift. He was a tall, big boned gifted mesomorph. Once after 8+ months into "training" he asked me... "Armesh, what is calorie? Apple got calorie ah?", I will remember that question until I die.

Then there's the "abangs" in my gym including the gym owner who's been lifting like 6~8 years I not sure. Steroid user. He talks/beliefs/advocates crap like "mass untuk sizing, protein untuk cutting" and tells me to bulk on mass gainers cause then 80% of the weight gained will be muscle compared to food only 20% muscle. Then there's also this fat guys who's been training maybe like 3 years, look like shit and heir 1RM bench is ~ their bodyweight. It's a horrible broscience environment. Nobody knows what is a small surplus.

So this is why I normally use the Powerlifting standards to categorize people. The bench is pretty accurate, 2x body-weight bench is truly an elite feat, and I use relative strength cause you can't cheat relative strength, it locks you.

I exclusively very strictly take all my advice from elite natural lifters who are almost at their genetic max, cause they are truly experienced in lifting. A natural who attains a 1.5x bodyweight bench in 1 year of training is light years ahead of knowledge compared to some fat guy who run bro splits, trains for pump and get 225lbs bench after 2 years.

I also same. Tall, skinny, 5.8 inch wrist, long arms, insane deadlift leverage but shitty bench leverage. But I'm 100% confident we can get a 2x bw bench if we train hard and consistently for 3~4 years . Think positive.


Relative strength = Aesthetics.


Arrogant, big ego, show off. I'm just called this cause I'm not big, like a double standard whereby a skinny guy cant give advice even if its right. I don't give dumb crap advice. If I do you can point it out.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 6 2015, 04:57 PM

Quit falmming lar. The standards we put on ourselfs are very personal. Especially in bodybuilding where there is no 1 universal scale. Alex from Alpha Destiny considers anyone who can't bench 225×5, squat 315×5, and deadlift 405×5 a beginner, Greg from Kinobody only considers you elite if you can incline bench 1.25*bw for 5 reps, 0.55*bw pullups for 5 reps and 0.9 x bw OHP for 5 reps. Exrx strength standards scale is also different.

That's why I even made the scale I was using clear on page 1. So as you see my "intermediate" meaning is much lower in standards compared to your meaning of "intermediate". Heck, to me you're more like an elite lifter. It's a personal thing and you can't simply insult someone when they already made clear the scale they are using, which in my case is a shitty ~132lbs bench. I never fake claimed any absurd lifts, and there's nothing to be proud of my shitty lifts.

It's like I say you're a fake liar cause you claim yourself "intermediate" lifter cause I consider you as elite. But of course I won't say that cause to your eyes "elite" may mean a different thing.

For me being humble is simply knowing there are people around you that might know more than you and opening/reading books, workout journals, articles of people better than you cause there is conform somethings you dunno. Even in this forum got like 3~4+ members far ahead than me.

Really curious how much your GF can lift on key lifts. Girls who train real are 1 in a million.


Do Fierce 5 conform you'll do fine. But F5 also the progression might feel abit fast.

After like 2~3 months of F5 you can move to Alpha Destiny Novice Program: http://outalpha.com/the-out-alpha-novice-program/
It uses rep progression and more push focused (suitable for your boxing purpose).

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 8 2015, 01:44 AM

Got them vids for you bro.
Here: https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f...0#entry74352222



Oh shit, you misunderstood me. "Gym experience" means diff thing compared to gym experience, that's why i used the " ".

Real gym experience is extremely valuable. Gym experience allows you to know how to hit specific muscle effectively, recovering from injuries, effectiveness of advance training methods such as HVT, advance nutrition knowledge like IF/CKD/ TKD/Low protein/Leptin stuff, and above all designing Optimum workout routines.

I've learnt alot from real gym experienced also. I used to be the guy who recommends SS, SL 5x5, ICF 5x5 and will say ICF 5x5 is better for size since high volume (stupid me). But once I went to gym and ran ICF for 4 months, I learnt so much from that disaster. It thought me what volume is realistic when designing Novice programs which I could have never known without getting under the bar myself.

That's why if you design a program it will always beat mine cause you know the "feel" better from your years and years of exp unlike me. Same goes in things like injury prevention,recovery and mobility, you surely know better due to exp.

Sorry for the confusion. My bad. Hope it's cleared.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 11 2015, 05:50 PM

Oh lol. I lifted for like total of ~9 months actually.

The ICF 5x5 story was around last year April when I started lifting for the first time. Did it from April 2014 - July 2014 on a strong bulk. Went from 55kg ~ 62kg and ended up skinny fat. Then after making almost no upper-body gains I tried All Pros Begginer routine for 1 month.

By then my already severe Acne Vulgaris got real bad (my face was fucked, chest acne, and horrible back acne that it became painful to sit on chair and wear bag).... so I had to give up bodybuilding & I got sharp depression for 1 week.

Learning from total failure and making 0 upper-body gains from ICF 5x5, and now having some "feel" of the bar. I dedicated following months towards studying basic programming/workout design. Nothing too serious.

Few months passed, college ended, and December 2015. I made the firm commitment that I'm gonna get the body I want no matter what, went to my dermatologist, and requested Accutane/Isotetrin 20mg per day. This is a very powerful controlled drug which is a permanent cure for acne. So now on Isotetrin 20mg/day I can eat anything I want and I'm pimple clear.

Learning from my past failure, gaining basic programming knowledge and with my acne taken care of, I dieted back down to 54kg, on 9 Jan 2015 I came back with a 90 day transformation. Here I am today. That's the story.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 12 2015, 02:22 AM

Stall on weight. Triceps could never recover. Bench 5RM only increased 5kg in 4 months. Nearing the 4 month mark started feeling over-training symptoms from doing 5X5 Squats with 5RM 3x per week for 4 months. Squats progress started going backward (over-training) & lower back felt it's gonna snap. Felt sick, under-recovered and dropped the madness.

I understand there are differences between people like how some people can grow well with low volume, some grow only on high volume, some can tolerate high volume and others who will just puke on high volume.

ICF 5x5 is more like an extreme case, so majority people will experience the same issue as me unless you're the top 1% with godlike genetics. SL 5x5 might work well for quite some people due to realistic volume but it lacks accessory work and balance.
The linked routine is way better than these 2, so might just pick the better option.

I did 1 cycle of AllPro's and I made almost no gains on it too. I felt the volume was too low for any growth. But I didn't comment on it cause the program itself is reasonable/realistic and it might just not be suitable for me.

If you ask me, I judge people by having some conversations with them. If some ripped big 80kg 12% body-fat guy tells me to "get some isi" before hitting the gym so I have some fat to turn it into muscle then it obviously shows where he stands - this happened 2x already. On the other hand if I bump into someone like 62kg 15% bf, but the guy and me have a nice conversation on lean bulking and logic behind it, shows dude knows his shit.
Trusting someone based on physique is like shooting yourself on the foot. Sadly, anyone who's 70kg 10% bf or better in my gym is juicing, the juice usage at my area is rampant. The other day some guy at the gym was telling me his friend's personal trainer injects steroids for his friend. Makes it pointless to judge by physique.

I don't really mind if people listen to me or not, it's the way it is. I'm just a recreational poster, can't take some Internet forum seriously. I'll be more worried if my progress stalled lol.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 14 2015, 12:37 PM

My area yea. It's ALOOOT. If the guy is 70+ kg, 10% bf, 90% chance he conform take one. You can just talk to some guys and easily get it. Sometimes they'll be just talking about their use in open. My area are all ghetto gyms.

Need to have conversations and screen this guys first.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 14 2015, 01:02 PM

Of course can. Even 75KG 8% bodyfat also 100% can naturally. If good genetics even 80kg can.

But there's 2 ways to reach there... if you know what i mean.

Normally I dun talk to anyone lar, just that guys talk to/advise me first. So i just do a 5 min convo, be friendly and probe them abit.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 14 2015, 01:55 PM

I break it down lar:

1. Untrained guy goes to gym for 4~5 months, ends up 70+kg 10% bodyfat... obvious use. We know very well how long it takes to get 70kg+ 10% bf. So "how long" is a very good indicator.

2. 75~80kg 10% bodyfat (almost genetic max) guy talks the bro'est of bro-science. On conversation doesn't even seem to know BB basics like lean bulking, IIFYM, calorie deficit, small surplus. Advocates things like dun eat rice to lose weight. High probability user.

3. Near genetic max (~72kg 10% bf), took 2.5 ~ 3 years to attain said physique. On conversation knows BB basics very well. Says minimal bro-science but he states that's his personal experience. High chance natural.

PM me if anything. Won't be posting here anymore.

This post has been edited by Armesh: May 14 2015, 02:27 PM