If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
By your logic, Game developer is a GOD so worship them?
By your logic, Game developer is a GOD so worship them?
No like that maa. I mean who create you, is your boss your god. U need to follow all the instruction He given. So god has create you, He ask you to worship Him.the one who follow him will get good reward and the one who does not follow him get punishment.Same like those CEO that create their own company. All their worker has to follow all his instruction because he is the one who create the company.you have good performance in your work,naik pangkat get bonus,you ponteng kerja get loss or potong gaji.
lets stick to that analogy and think a step further, there has to be someone who make the cars, likewise there has to be something that create that someone and before that there must be someone who create that something. now since god create us, who create god?
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
Atheist believe in origin, not creator.
Like before you have your metal you know someone needs to mine all the metal ore from earth, refine them, make alloy out of it, shape it into the parts and assemble it in assembly line before shipped to you.
No like that maa. I mean who create you, is your boss your god. U need to follow all the instruction He given. So god has create you, He ask you to worship Him.the one who follow him will get good reward and the one who does not follow him get punishment.Same like those CEO that create their own company. All their worker has to follow all his instruction because he is the one who create the company.you have good performance in your work,naik pangkat get bonus,you ponteng kerja get loss or potong gaji.
Then again why does GOD give you brain to think instead of creating robots just to worship him?
Also, why does GOD give you freedom to make choices and the list goes on.
If GOD is that almighty and perfect, he would already solve the issue at hand instead of dragging it until what we have today. Misunderstanding and such which leads to war and suffering.
why do some pipul r born in royalty n wealth? why do some pipul born poor, retarded or physically handicapped? why do babies get aborted in a toilet bowl while others born under the care of the finest gynae doctors in the world?
why do some pipul born genius while some with lower IQ?
why do innocent people getting killed evryday? babies, children. diseases, war, famine.
why do dinosaurs go extinct? what have they done to deserve total annihilation from the face of the earth?
Then again why does GOD give you brain to think instead of creating robots just to worship him?
Also, why does GOD give you freedom to make choices and the list goes on.
If GOD is that almighty and perfect, he would already solve the issue at hand instead of dragging it until what we have today. Misunderstanding and such which leads to war and suffering.
QUOTE(CKKwan @ Apr 26 2015, 07:55 PM)
The creator (if any) is so weak and bring more trouble to this world. I better believe myself.
QUOTE(G_KeN @ Apr 26 2015, 07:56 PM)
why do some pipul r born in royalty n wealth? why do some pipul born poor, retarded or physically handicapped? why do babies get aborted in a toilet bowl while others born under the care of the finest gynae doctors in the world?
why do some pipul born genius while some with lower IQ?
why do innocent people getting killed evryday? babies, children. diseases, war, famine.
why do dinosaurs go extinct? what have they done to deserve total annihilation from the face of the earth?
ini mesti salah yahudi!
+1 Just think logically, if you were God, would you allow so many religions to divide people? Worst thing is none of the religions stand out from one another. Religion A,B,C,D, etc all claim to have seen miracles, all try to convert the others. Yet not one religion has a God which can come out and prove that he is THE God that humans should worship. I mean if you were God, would you stand by and watch all the suffering and injustice happening on this earth? Heck you would be like Superman flying around trying to save as many people who cry out to you for help.
This post has been edited by Supreme1394: Apr 26 2015, 08:04 PM
Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!" As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances. "Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers.
in islam, my friend always say may god willing and god has plan on its own. so i ask him, why bother working to earn more money to inprove life? if u r destined to live wealthily, u no need do anything and still have many money because god willing. why does good pipu died prematurely but bad guy can live so long? look at those isis militant and serial killers? why if isis misused islam name for terrorism but god until today have yet to show himself (at least in those militant dream) to tell them they did wrong?
so many why why why. in the end, we human acted on our own free will. you may not agree but people said religion is for the weak.
Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!" As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances. "Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers.
+1 Just think logically, if you were God, would you allow so many religions to divide people? Worst thing is none of the religions stand out from one another. Religion A,B,C,D, etc all claim to have seen miracles, all try to convert the others. Yet not one religion has a God which can come out and prove that he is THE God that humans should worship. I mean if you were God, would you stand by and watch all the suffering and injustice happening on this earth? Heck you would be like Superman flying around trying to save as many people who cry out to you for help.
God demands that we believe everything that he tells us, and that we do everything that he says without questioning. Destroy a tribe including the women, children and animals down to last one? (Joshua 6.21). Why of course. Wait a minute, this doesn't seem very nice. SILENCE FOOL. HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME. I AM GOD AND YOU MUST OBEY ME WITHOUT QUESTIONING. ACCEPT WHAT I SAY ON FAITH. BURN THOSE WHO DARE QUESTION MY WORD. DESTROY THEIR BOOKS. SHUT DOWN THEIR SCHOOLS. TELL THEM THAT DISOBEDIENCE MEANS THAT THEY WILL BURN FOREVER AND EVER, IN UNIMAGINABLE AGONY FOR ALL ETERNITY, AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WILL SUFFER THESAME UNLESS YOU GO OUT AND TELL THEM THIS. Yes Sir, God Sir, whatever you say. See, here I am burning their books, pulling out their nails, torturing them for questioning Church dogma, banning the use of anaesthetic in child-bearing (since the pain is their just punishment for the acts of Adam and Eve). Help! I thought an improper thought! Help me to blind my mind God, help me to not see what my reason tells me. Let me repress thoughts of sexual desire, doubts about you and your orders, feelings of tolerance.
God demands that we believe everything that he tells us, and that we do everything that he says without questioning. Destroy a tribe including the women, children and animals down to last one? (Joshua 6.21). Why of course. Wait a minute, this doesn't seem very nice. SILENCE FOOL. HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME. I AM GOD AND YOU MUST OBEY ME WITHOUT QUESTIONING. ACCEPT WHAT I SAY ON FAITH. BURN THOSE WHO DARE QUESTION MY WORD. DESTROY THEIR BOOKS. SHUT DOWN THEIR SCHOOLS. TELL THEM THAT DISOBEDIENCE MEANS THAT THEY WILL BURN FOREVER AND EVER, IN UNIMAGINABLE AGONY FOR ALL ETERNITY, AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WILL SUFFER THESAME UNLESS YOU GO OUT AND TELL THEM THIS. Yes Sir, God Sir, whatever you say. See, here I am burning their books, pulling out their nails, torturing them for questioning Church dogma, banning the use of anaesthetic in child-bearing (since the pain is their just punishment for the acts of Adam and Eve). Help! I thought an improper thought! Help me to blind my mind God, help me to not see what my reason tells me. Let me repress thoughts of sexual desire, doubts about you and your orders, feelings of tolerance.
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
This has already been rehashed I dunno how many times.
Look, its quite simple - if you're going to insist that something need a creator, sure. Why just a creator? Who said it cannot be by committee? Which means we have an entire pantheon of gods bickering over design.
Frankly, it makes more sense. It explains why there so many anomalies like dark matter, black holes, and why Uranus is tilted at an odd angle.
You can't even prove that it is a singular entity that created the universe, and you want to come up to me and insist that you are correct.
Give empirical proof for there being only a singular creator or GTFO. Theological proof not accepted.
This post has been edited by arubin: Apr 26 2015, 08:20 PM
car, iphone, watch - man made sun, moon, animals, plants - nature
What is nature? - laws of physics and chemistry.
Nature has nothing related with creator.
It the laws of science are created, then the laws of science shall be able to be changed, destroyed and reset.
If one day, human can do that. Then human is....
Who create nature=GOD And why human cant create a small creature that god have create such an ant or mosquitoes?small easy thing but why human can't create it?
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
QUOTE(sgshuhu @ Apr 26 2015, 08:20 PM)
Who create nature=GOD And why human cant create a small creature that god have create such an ant or mosquitoes?small easy thing but why human can't create it?
You thank the creator for creating these beautiful landscapes we see today, are you also thankful for the sufferings he gave to millions of people? As he/she/it created those nasty diseases and natural disasters. No thanks
so this god of yours is so wonderful why would he create animals like lions/tigers/scorpions that would harm his own creations - humans and have catastrophes like earthquake/volcano eruptions/tsunami that destroy his own creations?
Who create nature=GOD And why human cant create a small creature that god have create such an ant or mosquitoes?small easy thing but why human can't create it?
Small and easy . Go read up biology then come back and reaffirm/change your statement whether it is true.
But how have we done this? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What did we do when we unchained the earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is it not more and more night coming on all the time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition? Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
1. who made god? 2. how is he able to create? 3. why did he create?
if there is really GOD...do you still have free will?? we will all be just like puppets...because someone up there is controlling us...our life..our fate...toto, magnum, 4d also decided by god....so does GST..
No like that maa. I mean who create you, is your boss your god. U need to follow all the instruction He given. So god has create you, He ask you to worship Him.the one who follow him will get good reward and the one who does not follow him get punishment.Same like those CEO that create their own company. All their worker has to follow all his instruction because he is the one who create the company.you have good performance in your work,naik pangkat get bonus,you ponteng kerja get loss or potong gaji.
Then give me concrete proof that I Was created by God. I promise u I will keep an open mind but u must promise me something solid that can be scientifically proven.
Who create nature=GOD And why human cant create a small creature that god have create such an ant or mosquitoes?small easy thing but why human can't create it?
how u know ant and mosquito not create by human?
maybe it was created silently years back?
maybe last time human create it, then they kill each other until all die only left those stupid one alive?
1.God is God, nothing else , jgn persoal 2.Because he is God 3.Because he want to
Inb4 god worshippers logic
God likes altruism, altruism understood as true self-sacrifice and not as giving up a minor value to achieve a more important one (which is just one aspect of rationality). If God can just get us all to be good altruists then we will be so much easier to control. Altruists do what they are told without complaint; a complaint would be based in self-interest; it would be a claim to live one's own life without having to direct it towards the lives of others or towards the interests of God or "the State".
God likes altruism, altruism understood as true self-sacrifice and not as giving up a minor value to achieve a more important one (which is just one aspect of rationality). If God can just get us all to be good altruists then we will be so much easier to control. Altruists do what they are told without complaint; a complaint would be based in self-interest; it would be a claim to live one's own life without having to direct it towards the lives of others or towards the interests of God or "the State".
Sup joky , I am that reindeer LOL sent to bora land and never made it back
YEAR 2015!! we build airplane, ship, rockets, even we can clone etc... drop a c4 volcano we can erupt it. we bride(use lots of different technique) in politics make us like a god to make ppl believe what i said.
yet Year 2015, you tell me god create you. pity your parents if they are not on track with you.
1.God is God, nothing else , jgn persoal 2.Because he is God 3.Because he want to
Inb4 god worshippers logic
1. so he came out of nowhere and hes suddenly a "God", even worst we knew its a "he" and why not a "she"? 2. so hes a god, and yes hes a god, but how do u know hes a god? did he tell u himself? 3. whats the purpose?
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
i remember in a movie
" by saying that the army bearing the cross of jesus christ can be defeated is simple blesphemous" the next scene. entire army wiped out...
moral of the story... please use ur brains and not brute force
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
based on their evolution, complexity could be build in span of billion years. Example analogy: Imagine BMW 7 series car that formed out of natural hurricane, or tsunami. to put into prespective, BMW 7 series is waaaaayyyyyyyy less complex than biology that happen around you right now.
I didn't know I was right or wrong to be atheist and comment in this tered shows that I'm right.. cuKur
My point is why some people need suffer yet some so enjoy? Believing in god? Hell no, better believe in myself.. 'He' never show up and maybe there isn't any 'He'
I didn't know I was right or wrong to be atheist and comment in this tered shows that I'm right.. cuKur
My point is why some people need suffer yet some so enjoy? Believing in god? Hell no, better believe in myself.. 'He' never show up and maybe there isn't any 'He'
Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!" As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances. "Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers.
God still live on while this guy who said above is dead.
Bodo punya TS ..... your creator is your parents ..... you think you drop from the sky issit?
Want to challenge someone that does not believe in any god at least do some homework and come up with a better argument rather then smoking some 3rd class weed and buka thread bodoh.
GOD you know what its mean? its mean he is creator and he has make a law that everthing happen and exist must have it own creator. But no one create HIM. Because the law of everthing must have a creator Dia yang cipta. And about if he know we will die at hell why he create us. U know about the word " Jangan persoal". He is the GOD. he have the power. He can create the storyline that He want for all of us that He want. As a slave, we ask HIM for mercy so that we can die and join those who have fate die and enter heaven. So we ask Him to gv us mercy. He is the boss, the GOD. He can do anything he like. Like the game you play. The creator of the game can make the storyline of that he like.For example, the main character of the game will die at last because he want it. As a player we just follow the flow of the game. jangan persoal.Same goes if you become boss, why you want your worker to tell you to do this do that . You are boss. Jangan persoal anything i did. You x sukak You keluar. Liddat la hehe
This post has been edited by sgshuhu: Apr 26 2015, 09:44 PM
When plane not invented yet, people say god live at the sky. When plane/rocket/satelite invented, flied to sky, they see no god. You people defense say god is invisible and live in mystery way. WHAT ELSE?
GOD you know what its mean? its mean he is creator and he has make a law that everthing happen and exist must have it own creator. But no one create HIM. Because the law of everthing must have a creator Dia yang cipta. And about if he know we will die at hell why he create us. U know about the word " Jangan persoal". He is the GOD. he have the power. He can create the storyline that He want for all of us that He want. As a slave, we ask HIM for mercy so that we can die and join those who have fate die and enter heaven. So we ask Him to gv us mercy. He is the boss, the GOD. He can do anything he like. Like the game you play. The creator of the game can make the storyline of that he like.For example, the main character of the game will die at last because he want it. As a player we just follow the flow of the game. jangan persoal.Same goes if you become boss, why you want your worker to tell you to do this do that . You are boss. Jangan persoal anything i did. You x sukak You keluar. Liddat la hehe
That is why work for a leader not a boss. Got that?
that is not true, we don't see evolution as god, we don't see science as god, we don't see darwin as god.
we just don't understand if people can see odin, thor, ra, apollo, or santa as fictional story, how is it modern religion are different from it? it's just fictional story to us.
Why do theists like to make stupid thread like this which has been answered billions of times? First of all your comparisons are really poorly made. First you talk about trusted creator and then all of a sudden jump to why don't believe in creator.
Secondly, just because it's small doesn't mean it's easy. (pointing to mosquitoes/flies/other insects). An anatomy is a highly complex system. But technically there are already "man made" insects, more like genetically modified, still with human intervention.
Lastly, if you believe in a creator, why do you stop at God? Why can't God have a creator too? Just because you defined "God" as the creator? Then by right it is just your definition and even worst, unproven.
that is not true, we don't see evolution as god, we don't see science as god, we don't see darwin as god.
we just don't understand if people can see odin, thor, ra, apollo, or santa as fictional story, how is it modern religion are different from it? it's just fictional story to us.
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
again and again people like this come out.. not sure if really noob theist, or a troll..
Like air or wind. You can feel it when you blow it. But you cAnt see it. You feel the power of the wind but you can't see it. You can't see god but you can see his creation greatness. Not all thing we can see by our naked eyes and think with our small brain. God has set limit to our brain about what we can think and not.
This post has been edited by sgshuhu: Apr 26 2015, 10:05 PM
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
because something exist doesnt mean it has a creator. you exist, but you have not been created by nobody. you just came out of your mothers womb after your dad dump his load in it.
even if it has a creator, you still need to prove that there is a conscious being as the creator, and even if that is true, it might not exist in the form of what bible or quran says.
The entire entire holybook's legitimacy lies on its prophecy, if its prophecy is proven to be fake, no one will believe in the holy book anymore. And the bastard that wrote that book, did not give a time frame for its prophecy to happen, which equals to fuck all. If i give a monkey a computer to play with infinity time, the time will come where the monkey produce a literature worthy of william shakesphere. Its not because the monkey has any fundamental knowledge of language, its just a matter of chance. Giving prophecies without setting a time frame = useless prophecy because it leaves it to time to play out the chances.
This post has been edited by Chucknourish: Apr 26 2015, 10:25 PM
+1 Just think logically, if you were God, would you allow so many religions to divide people? Worst thing is none of the religions stand out from one another. Religion A,B,C,D, etc all claim to have seen miracles, all try to convert the others. Yet not one religion has a God which can come out and prove that he is THE God that humans should worship. I mean if you were God, would you stand by and watch all the suffering and injustice happening on this earth? Heck you would be like Superman flying around trying to save as many people who cry out to you for help.
Like air or wind. You can feel it when you blow it. But you cAnt see it. You feel the power of the wind but you can't see it. You can't see god but you can see his creation greatness. Not all thing we can see by our naked eyes and think with our small brain. God has set limit to our brain about what we can think and not.
GOD you know what its mean? its mean he is creator and he has make a law that everthing happen and exist must have it own creator. But no one create HIM. Because the law of everthing must have a creator Dia yang cipta. And about if he know we will die at hell why he create us. U know about the word " Jangan persoal". He is the GOD. he have the power. He can create the storyline that He want for all of us that He want. As a slave, we ask HIM for mercy so that we can die and join those who have fate die and enter heaven. So we ask Him to gv us mercy. He is the boss, the GOD. He can do anything he like. Like the game you play. The creator of the game can make the storyline of that he like.For example, the main character of the game will die at last because he want it. As a player we just follow the flow of the game. jangan persoal.Same goes if you become boss, why you want your worker to tell you to do this do that . You are boss. Jangan persoal anything i did. You x sukak You keluar. Liddat la hehe
kindy irony, since god can do what he wants yet everyday you're praying and hope nothing bad happen. Asking god for this for that. To sum it up god exist due to human weakness
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
as a former atheist and a current believer in God... my response is
don't raise these kind of questions to the atheist. I can feel my former atheist laughing madly at you.
Semen contains millions of sperms. Ovum /egg only one. why need so many sperms?
You can argue that millennia ago, when men ejaculate, only one sperm is produced. So the probability of the sperm came contact to the egg is low, thus resulting low re-productivity in human race. Then come the men that ejaculate two sperm at a time, doubling the productivity and thus his race overtake the one sperm men. then come the three sperm men, four sperm men ...... till today, the million sperm men.
This is the so called Natural Selection in process.
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
my creator is my dad and mom. My mom nurtured me for 9 months / 40 weeks from a zygote to a baby. My parents shape what I am today.
I find athiest has nothing to cope once death, death mean fullstop,
they claim & want to believe life was 'coincidence' begin with the 1st spark of life ,ie big bang theory, they were good explain answer and reason, but they cant answer the point of origins,
Atheist believe in evolution. so basically they follow darwin theory.
Ibn-Khaldun along with Ibn Rushd, Ibn Bajah, Ibn Sina, Al-Biruni, Al-Jahiz, amongst other notable Muslim scholars were at ease with evolution and found no cause for alarm.
The Qur’an itself alludes to evolution in several verses (as in “we created you in stages”, amongst others, most notably the stories of Adam).
It should be known that we – May God guide you and us – notice that this world with all the created things in it has a certain order and solid construction. It shows nexuses between causes and things caused, combinations of some parts of creation with others, and transformations of some existent things into others, in a pattern that is both remarkable and endless.
One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word “connection” with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the next group.
The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.
Now, in the various worlds we find manifold influences. In the world of sensual perception there are certain influences of the motions of the spheres and the elements. In the world of creation there are certain influences of the motions of growth and perception. All this is evidence of the fact that there is something that exercises an influence and is different from the bodily substances. This is something spiritual. It is connected with the created things, because the various worlds must be connected in their existence. This spiritual thing is the soul, which has perception and causes motion.
Above the soul there must exist something else that gives the soul the power of perception and motion, and that is also connected with it. Its essence should be pure perception and absolute intellection. This is the world of the angels. The soul, consequently, must be prepared to exchange humanity for angelicality, in order actually to become part of the angelic species at certain times in the flash of a moment. This happens after the spiritual essence of the soul has become perfect in actuality, as we shall mention later on.
This post has been edited by aliesterfiend: Apr 29 2015, 04:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
From: North Borneo & South Nihon/Nippon
QUOTE(enCORe @ Apr 29 2015, 04:06 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
I find athiest has nothing to cope once death, death mean fullstop,
they claim & want to believe life was 'coincidence' begin with the 1st spark of life ,ie big bang theory, they were good explain answer and reason, but they cant answer the point of origins,
simple question,
whats before big bang ?
Im expected your logical answer
We don't know (full stop)
p.s.: Your grammar could be improved though....
This post has been edited by BeastX: Apr 29 2015, 05:57 PM
god and religion are created by mankind to control others behavior. if not, people will act according to desire and instinct and make the world a chaos. how they control others behavior? by feeding carefully designed values and beliefs. theories and holy books are engineered to provide answer to people who question them. excuses.
just like the logic of nobody creates god, nobody create us. we just happen to exist. naturally. and nature does not create us, "create" is a verb.
the way i see the world as an atheist is, we are like a group of adolescent in a room without supervise by any adult. there are bully, smart kid, dumb kid and normal kid. if you get bully by other kid or any other trouble no adult will come out and help you. if you want something, you get them with your hand.
nothing like a god are standing above us and demand us to worship it, although we are vulnerable to many threats. don't be controlled by fear, mate. stand for yourself.
This post has been edited by PortgasDerekAce: Apr 29 2015, 04:51 PM
If you want buy car, you will find car that make by those trusted car automaker like bimmer and merc. So the car has its own maker or someone that create the car. Same goes to your daily need such a watch, iphone, tv,radio,shoes,shirt, internet, house and etc all have their own creator or someone that make those item. But why you deny that you are also have your own creator that is god.for muslim it call Allah.how come those beautiful forest,ocean,mountain and those complex animal like tiger,lion, cheetah have not create by someone powerful. Not to mention those hot sun,moon and star.what make you think all those amazing thing around you those not have their creator and Terjadi semula jadi. If someone say that their house is semulajadi, you must think he crazy right?
QUOTE
As a Muslim,I definitely believe that God is One and that is Allah.He (God) is not a creation but he is the one that create everything and life.Mankind not been given privilege in their brain to find how God been created and where he is.He is the one who guide people that he wants to the right path.I believe in Injil (Prophet Jesus) but not as God as Christian faithful believe.
QUOTE
“Imam Fakhrudien Raazi (Rahmatullahi ‘alayh) was a brilliant and gifted Scholar. Yet on his death bed, shaytaan came to him with strong arguments that Allah (Jalla Jalaaluhu) does not exist. The Imam presented one hundred proofs of Allah Ta’ala’s existence. His shaytaan was such a Scholar, who broke every single proof of his. He then saw his Sheikh in a vision who said: ‘Say: I believe in Allah without any proof!’
sgshuhu ko jangan layan sangat atheist & agnostic ni.. hahahahhaah
Ibn-Khaldun along with Ibn Rushd, Ibn Bajah, Ibn Sina, Al-Biruni, Al-Jahiz, amongst other notable Muslim scholars were at ease with evolution and found no cause for alarm.
The Qur’an itself alludes to evolution in several verses (as in “we created you in stages”, amongst others, most notably the stories of Adam).
It should be known that we – May God guide you and us – notice that this world with all the created things in it has a certain order and solid construction. It shows nexuses between causes and things caused, combinations of some parts of creation with others, and transformations of some existent things into others, in a pattern that is both remarkable and endless. One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word “connection” with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the next group.
The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.
Now, in the various worlds we find manifold influences. In the world of sensual perception there are certain influences of the motions of the spheres and the elements. In the world of creation there are certain influences of the motions of growth and perception. All this is evidence of the fact that there is something that exercises an influence and is different from the bodily substances. This is something spiritual. It is connected with the created things, because the various worlds must be connected in their existence. This spiritual thing is the soul, which has perception and causes motion.
Above the soul there must exist something else that gives the soul the power of perception and motion, and that is also connected with it. Its essence should be pure perception and absolute intellection. This is the world of the angels. The soul, consequently, must be prepared to exchange humanity for angelicality, in order actually to become part of the angelic species at certain times in the flash of a moment. This happens after the spiritual essence of the soul has become perfect in actuality, as we shall mention later on.
I'm not claiming anything. Only saying that Darwin's theory was not revolutionary. The main difference between Darwins evolution concept with earlier muslim thinkers is the process of natural selection.
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
QUOTE(enCORe @ Apr 29 2015, 04:06 PM)
I find athiest has nothing to cope once death, death mean fullstop,
they claim & want to believe life was 'coincidence' begin with the 1st spark of life ,ie big bang theory, they were good explain answer and reason, but they cant answer the point of origins,
simple question,
whats before big bang ?
Im expected your logical answer
Your findings are all wrong, and I can tell you exactly why.
Yes, to an atheist, death is indeed a full stop. True, we have nothing to cope with it, but that's also because we don't need to cope. Have you not considered that? Why would I need to cope? I am not afraid.
This is why I mentioned in another post that it takes a certain mental fortitude to be an atheist. You need to be able to look at the finality of death and not ball up in terror.
If you can't, yes...go be a theist instead. Some people need to believe in stories in order to go on with their lives. We don't.
Also, what do you mean we want a good explanation, answer, and reason? That statement is also incorrect.
Man is inquisitive in nature. Do we want answers? I suppose so, yes, but these answers have to have basis. We won't make up stories just to explain something that we have no answer to. I think humanity has moved way past that stage already where we didn't know what lightning was so we attributed it to Thor or whatever other deity.
If we don't know an answer for certain, we keep studying the problem until the solution presents itself. We don't make something up just for convenience.
So, in answer to your question...what's before the Big Bang?
We don't know. No atheist ever claims to know. No scientist or physicist also claims to know. They can come up with a hypothesis. They can conduct experiments. They can study the results of these experiments and determine if their original theory was correct or not. Unfortunately, at this point of time, we don't have the scientific caliber to answer this question yet.
If you want to say there's a creator or god behind it all, than its up to you, but I would like to point out that it makes no more logical or scientific sense than if I were to say that the universe was sneezed out of the Great Green Arkleseizure, therefore we should all fear the coming of The Great White Handkerchief. You can make something up, I can also make something up.
I'm not claiming anything. Only saying that Darwin's theory was not revolutionary. The main difference between Darwins evolution concept with earlier muslim thinkers is the process of natural selection.
it doesnt have to be revolutionary, it just have to be correct.
lets stick to that analogy and think a step further, there has to be someone who make the cars, likewise there has to be something that create that someone and before that there must be someone who create that something. now since god create us, who create god?
Far into the future, humans will have evolved into god like beings.
They will then go back in time and create the universe.
Im born muslim an receive adequate islamic education, but now im atheist. Ask me why.
So Do I.
Anyway, for Muslim, please, Lakum Dinukum wali ad-din. Why bother with other believe/religion. Stop this "I'm better than you" attitude and start worshipping your god...(for your god sake).
What tickles me , most gnostic-atheist wanna be a hero prove they ahead & always right 101 (aka beyond God); BUT with false experiment & inconsistency finding. Evolutionist himself figure out human from apes theory changes & now irrelevant. Now they figure new idea human was send by the aliens to earth so we become 'space religion' in the age of aquarius, They're quite arrogance towards 'narrow mind believers' by mixing fiction with science to be 'creative & looks awesome'. Becoming scientific heroes and plead together God is Dead. genius
Your admiration 'we dont know thing' has alot of meaning, our knowledge not reaching yet, perhaps unreachable or even mysteries ? hmmm does mysteries belong in science? Creationist believe human indirectly send by God via Adam & Eve, simple as that because they're people believing magic. I know sounds ridiculous but magic its something science could not explain, no one able explain where is human soul, mind & supernatural thing, these are a real deal. Those pride unbeliever-atheist saying out loud God is ridiculous but when they alone in the dark they would run from a Ghost, DOH
QUOTE(arubin @ Apr 30 2015, 10:52 AM)
So, in answer to your question...what's before the Big Bang?
We don't know. No atheist ever claims to know. No scientist or physicist also claims to know. They can come up with a hypothesis. They can conduct experiments. They can study the results of these experiments and determine if their original theory was correct or not. Unfortunately, at this point of time, we don't have the scientific caliber to answer this question yet.
If you want to say there's a creator or god behind it all, than its up to you, but I would like to point out that it makes no more logical or scientific sense than if I were to say that the universe was sneezed out of the Great Green Arkleseizure, therefore we should all fear the coming of The Great White Handkerchief. You can make something up, I can also make something up.
What tickles me , most gnostic-atheist wanna be a hero prove they ahead & always right 101 (aka beyond God); BUT with false experiment & inconsistency finding. Evolutionist himself figure out human from apes theory changes & now irrelevant. Now they figure new idea human was send by the aliens to earth so we become 'space religion' in the age of aquarius, They're quite arrogance towards 'narrow mind believers' by mixing fiction with science to be 'creative & looks awesome'. Becoming scientific heroes and plead together God is Dead. genius
Your admiration 'we dont know thing' has alot of meaning, our knowledge not reaching yet, perhaps unreachable or even mysteries ? hmmm does mysteries belong in science? Creationist believe human indirectly send by God via Adam & Eve, simple as that because they're people believing magic. I know sounds ridiculous but magic its something science could not explain, no one able explain where is human soul, mind & supernatural thing, these are a real deal. Those pride unbeliever-atheist saying out loud God is ridiculous but when they alone in the dark they would run from a Ghost, DOH
lol........still no proof of god?
by the way.......arguing about evolution has nothing to do with proving god or disproving god.
Some people don't bother what will happen when the time comes. They just adhere to simple life principle - do good, don't do bad, be responsible for own mistakes. They can have no fear when the time comes.
Some people are given two choices. They do a lot of things day and night, and still feel doing not enough (until overdo it I think). They are still in fear when the time comes. (afraid of 50/50%, go up or go down)
The salvation /mercies is meaningless, if too many strict terms and conditions apply.
This perfectly narrates my "religion". I wish there is a single word I can use to describe this whenever people relentlessly ask about my religion.
This also explains why I find some religions ridiculous. I have been bought to a Christian Methodist church several times and in their sermons (or whatever they were doing - a priest / group representative leading everyone to chant out verses and sentences projected in Powerpoint slides), they repeatedly chant "I am aware I cannot obtain salvation by doing good deeds, I can only be saved by believing in Him".
I took an immediate dislike towards the entire sermon / session. The entire session seems to be like "You WANT to be saved -> Believe in me to be saved! -> Oh, by the way, good deeds are pointless."
What is the point in discrediting good deeds? Is the religion suggesting going good deeds are of no importance, and worthless? Is this why many people seem to be focusing too much into their afterlife to the point that they are unaware of what they are doing to the people around them? Is this why people talk and talk about being saved in church but treats people like pieces of trash out of the church?
Perhaps that is why I find many of the most religious people around me to be unbelievable hypocrites. The most horrifying thing is the fact that they can continue their lives comfortably while justifying to themselves for being a huge hypocrites.
Religious F***tards.
(P/s: Oh, and even if you bring this out for discussion in the most civil way possible, such as in academic debates, there will CERTAINLY some people who would either secretly or overtly get batshit offended and start getting defensive, and if you are unlucky, probably mark you for assassination)
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
QUOTE(enCORe @ May 3 2015, 04:05 PM)
What tickles me , most gnostic-atheist wanna be a hero prove they ahead & always right 101 (aka beyond God); BUT with false experiment & inconsistency finding. Evolutionist himself figure out human from apes theory changes & now irrelevant. Now they figure new idea human was send by the aliens to earth so we become 'space religion' in the age of aquarius, They're quite arrogance towards 'narrow mind believers' by mixing fiction with science to be 'creative & looks awesome'. Becoming scientific heroes and plead together God is Dead. genius
Your admiration 'we dont know thing' has alot of meaning, our knowledge not reaching yet, perhaps unreachable or even mysteries ? hmmm does mysteries belong in science? Creationist believe human indirectly send by God via Adam & Eve, simple as that because they're people believing magic. I know sounds ridiculous but magic its something science could not explain, no one able explain where is human soul, mind & supernatural thing, these are a real deal. Those pride unbeliever-atheist saying out loud God is ridiculous but when they alone in the dark they would run from a Ghost, DOH
What tickles me is how theists enjoy obfuscating the issue by bringing in all sorts of irrelevant discussions.
What is it now? Evolution or existence of god? Which is it? Pick which you want to discuss.
Incidentally, I would like to point out that evolution is not exactly contradictory to religion depending on which school of thought you follow. I know quite a few Muslims who are fine with it, and that the official position of the Catholic church is that evolution happened.
Also...this statement?
Evolutionist himself figure out human from apes theory changes & now irrelevant.
Incorrect, and idiotic. Evolution has never been irreleveant, nor has it ever stated humans came from apes. You need to study some more instead of commenting on something you don't understand.
Do not know, means we study it. We don't make up stories to explain something. You have not even proven magic. You just stated that is 'exists', but is regarded by the scientific community as hogwash.
And no, we don't run from ghosts. They don't exist.
What tickles me , most gnostic-atheist wanna be a hero prove they ahead & always right 101 (aka beyond God); BUT with false experiment & inconsistency finding. Evolutionist himself figure out human from apes theory changes & now irrelevant. Now they figure new idea human was send by the aliens to earth so we become 'space religion' in the age of aquarius, They're quite arrogance towards 'narrow mind believers' by mixing fiction with science to be 'creative & looks awesome'. Becoming scientific heroes and plead together God is Dead. genius
Your admiration 'we dont know thing' has alot of meaning, our knowledge not reaching yet, perhaps unreachable or even mysteries ? hmmm does mysteries belong in science? Creationist believe human indirectly send by God via Adam & Eve, simple as that because they're people believing magic. I know sounds ridiculous but magic its something science could not explain, no one able explain where is human soul, mind & supernatural thing, these are a real deal. Those pride unbeliever-atheist saying out loud God is ridiculous but when they alone in the dark they would run from a Ghost, DOH
Your admiration 'we dont know thing' has alot of meaning, our knowledge not reaching yet, perhaps unreachable or even mysteries ? hmmm does mysteries belong in science? Creationist believe human indirectly send by God via Adam & Eve, simple as that because they're people believing magic. I know sounds ridiculous but magic its something science could not explain, no one able explain where is human soul, mind & supernatural thing, these are a real deal. Those pride unbeliever-atheist saying out loud God is ridiculous but when they alone in the dark they would run from a Ghost, DOH
QUOTE(arubin @ May 3 2015, 09:04 PM)
Do not know, means we study it. We don't make up stories to explain something. You have not even proven magic. You just stated that is 'exists', but is regarded by the scientific community as hogwash.
And no, we don't run from ghosts. They don't exist.
This is also one of my favourite quotes:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke
Today we take for granted lots of things - electric stove, cars, smartphones etc.
If a person from the previous century is dropped in our current society, he will gape in awe of what we have and think everything is magic - mobile phones? Rockets?
If you take a cavemen and put him in 18th century, he will think the people there are also gods - can produce fire, have wagons, have guns etc.
Heck even now we still marvel at the recent advances of drones, more life-life androids and robotic movements. We also just landed a craft on a comet! Next century this will all be obsolete and commonplace stuff that no one will even bat an eye.
Another example is also in medical field: Back in those days people autistic children are possessed etc. Look this up in myths in Wikipedia: Changeling. "It is typically described as being the offspring of a fairy, troll, elf or other legendary creature that has been secretly left in the place of a human child."
But these days we know better: "The reality behind many changeling legends was often the birth of deformed or developmentally disabled children. Among the diseases with symptoms that match the description of changelings in various legends are spina bifida, cystic fibrosis, PKU, progeria, Down syndrome, homocystinuria, Williams syndrome, Hurler syndrome, Hunter syndrome, regressive autism, Prader-Willi Syndrome, and cerebral palsy. The greater proneness of boys with birth defect correlates to the belief that male infants were more likely to be taken."
This post has been edited by jonoave: May 4 2015, 06:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
QUOTE(jonoave @ May 4 2015, 06:07 AM)
This is also one of my favourite quotes:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke
Today we take for granted lots of things - electric stove, cars, smartphones etc.
If a person from the previous century is dropped in our current society, he will gape in awe of what we have and think everything is magic - mobile phones? Rockets?
If you take a cavemen and put him in 18th century, he will think the people there are also gods - can produce fire, have wagons, have guns etc.
Heck even now we still marvel at the recent advances of drones, more life-life androids and robotic movements. We also just landed a craft on a comet! Next century this will all be obsolete and commonplace stuff that no one will even bat an eye.
Another example is also in medical field: Back in those days people autistic children are possessed etc. Look this up in myths in Wikipedia: Changeling. "It is typically described as being the offspring of a fairy, troll, elf or other legendary creature that has been secretly left in the place of a human child."
But these days we know better: "The reality behind many changeling legends was often the birth of deformed or developmentally disabled children. Among the diseases with symptoms that match the description of changelings in various legends are spina bifida, cystic fibrosis, PKU, progeria, Down syndrome, homocystinuria, Williams syndrome, Hurler syndrome, Hunter syndrome, regressive autism, Prader-Willi Syndrome, and cerebral palsy. The greater proneness of boys with birth defect correlates to the belief that male infants were more likely to be taken."
Its really silly how they want to challenge us to prove that we don't believe in ghosts by spending a night in a graveyard or something.
Sure...I will...if it were some luxurious mausoleum which is sheltered, has air-conditioning, and shielded from the elements and pests. I'm not spending a night out in the open for to prove a point.
For that matter, they say ghost exists? They should prove one by bringing it to me instead. Cannot find one to bring to me, means don't exist lar. Simple as that.
Its not my obligation to prove that something don't exists, and its very stupid and totally illogical to boot. You say something exists, you provide proof. It has always been that way and that's how it should work.
This perfectly narrates my "religion". I wish there is a single word I can use to describe this whenever people relentlessly ask about my religion.
This also explains why I find some religions ridiculous. I have been bought to a Christian Methodist church several times and in their sermons (or whatever they were doing - a priest / group representative leading everyone to chant out verses and sentences projected in Powerpoint slides), they repeatedly chant "I am aware I cannot obtain salvation by doing good deeds, I can only be saved by believing in Him".
I took an immediate dislike towards the entire sermon / session. The entire session seems to be like "You WANT to be saved -> Believe in me to be saved! -> Oh, by the way, good deeds are pointless."
What is the point in discrediting good deeds? Is the religion suggesting going good deeds are of no importance, and worthless? Is this why many people seem to be focusing too much into their afterlife to the point that they are unaware of what they are doing to the people around them? Is this why people talk and talk about being saved in church but treats people like pieces of trash out of the church?
Perhaps that is why I find many of the most religious people around me to be unbelievable hypocrites. The most horrifying thing is the fact that they can continue their lives comfortably while justifying to themselves for being a huge hypocrites.
Religious F***tards.
(P/s: Oh, and even if you bring this out for discussion in the most civil way possible, such as in academic debates, there will CERTAINLY some people who would either secretly or overtly get batshit offended and start getting defensive, and if you are unlucky, probably mark you for assassination)
Be mad all you want though, but some of these women of these damn churches are slutty/hot/speak nice as heck.
MAN, if there is one thing religion does right, is how they make sure women act right.
More often than not, my dick summons me to join a "good" church.
Chances are, I'm going to hell anyway. I was hoping they'd give me a job when I get down there.
This perfectly narrates my "religion". I wish there is a single word I can use to describe this whenever people relentlessly ask about my religion.
This also explains why I find some religions ridiculous. I have been bought to a Christian Methodist church several times and in their sermons (or whatever they were doing - a priest / group representative leading everyone to chant out verses and sentences projected in Powerpoint slides), they repeatedly chant "I am aware I cannot obtain salvation by doing good deeds, I can only be saved by believing in Him".
I took an immediate dislike towards the entire sermon / session. The entire session seems to be like "You WANT to be saved -> Believe in me to be saved! -> Oh, by the way, good deeds are pointless."
What is the point in discrediting good deeds? Is the religion suggesting going good deeds are of no importance, and worthless? Is this why many people seem to be focusing too much into their afterlife to the point that they are unaware of what they are doing to the people around them? Is this why people talk and talk about being saved in church but treats people like pieces of trash out of the church?
Perhaps that is why I find many of the most religious people around me to be unbelievable hypocrites. The most horrifying thing is the fact that they can continue their lives comfortably while justifying to themselves for being a huge hypocrites.
Religious F***tards.
(P/s: Oh, and even if you bring this out for discussion in the most civil way possible, such as in academic debates, there will CERTAINLY some people who would either secretly or overtly get batshit offended and start getting defensive, and if you are unlucky, probably mark you for assassination)
Erm I think you got the message of the sermon wrong. You are saved by believing in Him, you aren't justified by your own deeds. You don't earn grace but it was given freely to you when you believe in the Son if I am right as contrast to the Pharasies. See Luke 18:9-14. if I am right that is. The bible never said to not do good deeds see Mathew 6 and Hebrews 13:6 nor did it said it was pointless. I think (new believer here) good deeds isn't your ticket to salvation, but believing in Him, and when you believe in Him (and/or love Him), you will do good to others because his last commandment was for us to love others like He loved us.
Just asking were you a non believer when you attended the sermon?
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
QUOTE(Cryptic @ May 5 2015, 07:15 PM)
Erm I think you got the message of the sermon wrong. You are saved by believing in Him, you aren't justified by your own deeds. You don't earn grace but it was given freely to you when you believe in the Son if I am right as contrast to the Pharasies. See Luke 18:9-14. if I am right that is. The bible never said to not do good deeds see Mathew 6 and Hebrews 13:6 nor did it said it was pointless. I think (new believer here) good deeds isn't your ticket to salvation, but believing in Him, and when you believe in Him (and/or love Him), you will do good to others because his last commandment was for us to love others like He loved us.
Just asking were you a non believer when you attended the sermon?
And if somebody does a Gregor Clegane on you, as in he rapes your wife, your daughter, and than kills your infant son by smashing his head with his bare hands and your entire family to boot, he will be forgiven and saved by believing in Him. And thus he gets a ticket to salvation and you and your deceased family will have to face this person in Heaven for eternity, but hey...all is forgiven, no? Its OK, he's a different person now and he repented.
Jeng jeng jeng...did I just give the believer nightmares?
And if somebody does a Gregor Clegane on you, as in he rapes your wife, your daughter, and than kills your infant son by smashing his head with his bare hands and your entire family to boot, he will be forgiven and saved by believing in Him. And thus he gets a ticket to salvation and you and your deceased family will have to face this person in Heaven for eternity, but hey...all is forgiven, no? Its OK, he's a different person now and he repented.
Jeng jeng jeng...did I just give the believer nightmares?
erm no you didn't? If that really happens to me, I pray for the strength to overcome it and forgive him because Lord knows I will be very tempted to not forgive him and to inflict pain in him instead.
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
QUOTE(Cryptic @ May 5 2015, 08:46 PM)
erm no you didn't? If that really happens to me, I pray for the strength to overcome it and forgive him because Lord knows I will be very tempted to not forgive him and to inflict pain in him instead.
Well, like it or not you're stuck with him for all eternity. Wouldn't that be something?
Guy does all these nasty things and he gets to enjoy eternal paradise just as long as he accepts salvation just in the nick of time. What an awesome concept.
Yeah,i think I like the balance of good deeds idea better...
Erm I think you got the message of the sermon wrong. You are saved by believing in Him, you aren't justified by your own deeds. You don't earn grace but it was given freely to you when you believe in the Son if I am right as contrast to the Pharasies. See Luke 18:9-14. if I am right that is. The bible never said to not do good deeds see Mathew 6 and Hebrews 13:6 nor did it said it was pointless. I think (new believer here) good deeds isn't your ticket to salvation, but believing in Him, and when you believe in Him (and/or love Him), you will do good to others because his last commandment was for us to love others like He loved us.
Just asking were you a non believer when you attended the sermon?
QUOTE
You are saved by believing in Him, you aren't justified by your own deeds. You don't earn grace but it was given freely to you when you believe in the Son if I am right as contrast to the Pharasies.
What are you even trying to say? How is "saved", "justified" and "earn grace" different from one another? It seems like plenty of new words have been thrown in and is making everything unclear. Also, while the Bible never explicitly said to NOT do good deeds (I never claimed that anyway), and the Bible never explicitly said that good deeds are pointless, but given how the importance of good deeds and noble, charitable acts has been downplayed, isn't the same thing being implicitly implied? If good deeds are not the ticket to salvation, why bother going out of our way to aid others? Believe that He exists, and believe that He is God - isn't that all you need?
Saved... from what? Damnation? Hellfire? Hellfire which he created to shove non-believers into? Compare "U tak suka, u tak ikut cara kami, u pergi India, u balik China" with "You don't follow my ways, you don't believe in me, to Hell you go, in Hell you stay". The God is a feudal lord who creates the world, owns the world and demands everyone to worship him? *jawdrops* "Bow, and kneel to me, or stay in prison, FOREVER!"
QUOTE
...and when you believe in Him (and/or love Him), you will do good to others...
False. Do all people who believe in Him automatically do good to others? If you believe in Him, you will surely do good to others? People do believe in Him, go out of church, break as many commandments as you can think of, do malicious things for personal gain, justify their actions to themselves for a while, go to church, express their remorse and ask for forgiveness, rinse and repeat. At the end of the day, they still think they can hope for a chance to be sent to Heaven - they are believers, after all.
I apologize if my replies above are a mess. I'm not in my best state today.
To the theists: I have many classmates/colleagues/teachers/friends/acquaintances/strangers convincing me to believe in their God, and join their brotherhood. Islam, various branches of Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Taoism, you name it. They have shown me countless long, long anti-atheistic arguments, mainly to prove God really exists. However, my concern is not whether God exists or not, but the question which I have asked many of them:
QUOTE
Me: Okay, say, God exists. Why have you followed <religion> then? How do you know if the god is Allah, Jesus, Buddha, Flying Spaghetti Monster, or a pantheon of Hindu, Greek or Roman gods? How do you know if there is just one God, or a pantheon of Gods, constantly bickering at one another? What if the God is actually, say, Allah? For being a Christian and not a Muslim, you are going to Hell. The same way goes the other way round. How do you know what religion to believe in?
Reply: I dunno. I just believe. I just believe my religion is the true religion, and pray that my choice is right.
Me: Believe? Based on what? Ignorance? Why believe your religion is the correct one, not the others? Pray? Pray to whom? Say, you are a Christian praying to Jesus that you are correct to be a Christian, but if the God is Flying Spaghetti Monster instead... how do you even know who to pray to? You need to pray to some deity that you are praying to the correct deity, but how do you choose?
This post has been edited by Archmage Warlic: May 6 2015, 12:54 AM
After all the replies, the conclusion is there are only ONE God that is ALLAH. He is the only one god and the almighty god.and Muhammad is the messenger of allah. ____________________________________________ "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone."
Surah al ikhlas, chapter 112 ____________________________________________ -Topic Closed- ____________________________________________ P/S: actually how to close thread aaa?i dunno lah. LoLolololoLoloL
This post has been edited by sgshuhu: May 6 2015, 01:42 PM
After all the replies, the conclusion is there are only ONE God that is ALLAH. He is the only one god and the almighty god.and Muhammad is the messenger of allah. ____________________________________________ "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone."
Surah al ikhlas, chapter 112 ____________________________________________ -Topic Closed- ____________________________________________ P/S: actually how to close thread aaa?i dunno lah. LoLolololoLoloL
What tickles me is how theists enjoy obfuscating the issue by bringing in all sorts of irrelevant discussions.
What is it now? Evolution or existence of god? Which is it? Pick which you want to discuss.
Incidentally, I would like to point out that evolution is not exactly contradictory to religion depending on which school of thought you follow. I know quite a few Muslims who are fine with it, and that the official position of the Catholic church is that evolution happened.
Also...this statement?
Evolutionist himself figure out human from apes theory changes & now irrelevant.
Incorrect, and idiotic. Evolution has never been irreleveant, nor has it ever stated humans came from apes. You need to study some more instead of commenting on something you don't understand.
Do not know, means we study it. We don't make up stories to explain something. You have not even proven magic. You just stated that is 'exists', but is regarded by the scientific community as hogwash.
And no, we don't run from ghosts. They don't exist.
From the Church POV, does not mean evolution discredit creation. It starts from there, then evolution. It's not just Catholics.
And if somebody does a Gregor Clegane on you, as in he rapes your wife, your daughter, and than kills your infant son by smashing his head with his bare hands and your entire family to boot, he will be forgiven and saved by believing in Him. And thus he gets a ticket to salvation and you and your deceased family will have to face this person in Heaven for eternity, but hey...all is forgiven, no? Its OK, he's a different person now and he repented.
Jeng jeng jeng...did I just give the believer nightmares?
Well, like it or not you're stuck with him for all eternity. Wouldn't that be something?
Guy does all these nasty things and he gets to enjoy eternal paradise just as long as he accepts salvation just in the nick of time. What an awesome concept.
Yeah,i think I like the balance of good deeds idea better...
Well he will be changed eternally as well. So it is an awesome concept.
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ May 6 2015, 03:33 PM)
From the Church POV, does not mean evolution discredit creation. It starts from there, then evolution. It's not just Catholics.
Yes, I know its not just Catholics. Some Protestants also agree with that viewpoint, but the Catholics are the only ones who have made it their official stance.
Also, I mostly only dispute Young Earth Creationists and a literal interpretation of Genesis. If you follow the Catholic line, I have no scientific beef with you really. You want to believe that the universe is created, that's fine. I will not argue with that. I don't agree but I see no reason to make a big fuss about it.
What tickles me , most gnostic-atheist wanna be a hero prove they ahead & always right 101 (aka beyond God); BUT with false experiment & inconsistency finding. Evolutionist himself figure out human from apes theory changes & now irrelevant. Now they figure new idea human was send by the aliens to earth so we become 'space religion' in the age of aquarius, They're quite arrogance towards 'narrow mind believers' by mixing fiction with science to be 'creative & looks awesome'. Becoming scientific heroes and plead together God is Dead. genius
Your admiration 'we dont know thing' has alot of meaning, our knowledge not reaching yet, perhaps unreachable or even mysteries ? hmmm does mysteries belong in science? Creationist believe human indirectly send by God via Adam & Eve, simple as that because they're people believing magic. I know sounds ridiculous but magic its something science could not explain, no one able explain where is human soul, mind & supernatural thing, these are a real deal. Those pride unbeliever-atheist saying out loud God is ridiculous but when they alone in the dark they would run from a Ghost, DOH
Well, like it or not you're stuck with him for all eternity. Wouldn't that be something?
Guy does all these nasty things and he gets to enjoy eternal paradise just as long as he accepts salvation just in the nick of time. What an awesome concept.
Yeah,i think I like the balance of good deeds idea better...
If my heart is so hard and full of vengeance then yes it would be an issue. Besides, it's not as if I am sinless, who am I to judge.
QUOTE(Archmage Warlic @ May 6 2015, 12:54 AM)
I will try to answer the best I can as my knowledge and understanding of scripture is shallow.
QUOTE
What are you even trying to say? How is "saved", "justified" and "earn grace" different from one another? It seems like plenty of new words have been thrown in and is making everything unclear. Also, while the Bible never explicitly said to NOT do good deeds (I never claimed that anyway), and the Bible never explicitly said that good deeds are pointless, but given how the importance of good deeds and noble, charitable acts has been downplayed, isn't the same thing being implicitly implied? If good deeds are not the ticket to salvation, why bother going out of our way to aid others? Believe that He exists, and believe that He is God - isn't that all you need?
Ephesians 2:8-10 : For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
If I am right, we can't buy (or earn) our way into Heaven but however we should do good to glorify our Father in Heaven and to please God.
Mathew 5:16 : In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
Hebrews 13:16 : And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
QUOTE
Saved... from what? Damnation? Hellfire? Hellfire which he created to shove non-believers into? Compare "U tak suka, u tak ikut cara kami, u pergi India, u balik China" with "You don't follow my ways, you don't believe in me, to Hell you go, in Hell you stay". The God is a feudal lord who creates the world, owns the world and demands everyone to worship him? *jawdrops* "Bow, and kneel to me, or stay in prison, FOREVER!"
Technically Adam brought sin to the world and Jesus was the means to be saved. It's more of a we are already condemned unless we believe in Jesus if I get it right.
Romans 5:17-20 : For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:17-18 : For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
I dislike the whole "Turn or Burn" thing, made me disliked Christians when I was a teenager.
QUOTE
False. Do all people who believe in Him automatically do good to others? If you believe in Him, you will surely do good to others? People do believe in Him, go out of church, break as many commandments as you can think of, do malicious things for personal gain, justify their actions to themselves for a while, go to church, express their remorse and ask for forgiveness, rinse and repeat. At the end of the day, they still think they can hope for a chance to be sent to Heaven - they are believers, after all.
it isn't an automatic thing. it's more of a like "IF YOU really do love Jesus, then you will do good"
John 13:34 : A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 14:15 : If you love me, keep my commands.
I think the above is sufficient with regards to doing good. As for those who continue to sin, I think there are 2 categories, one who has a habitual sinful (one who struggles with it the best he/she cans everyday but still sins) and those who deliberately continuously sin despite knowing not to. As for the former
Romans 7:21-25 : So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
As for the latter, we should not continue to sin. And if I am right, we should do our best to repent and not to continue sinning.
Romans 2:4 : Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Romans 6:1-2 : What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Romans 12:1-2 : Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
QUOTE
I apologize if my replies above are a mess. I'm not in my best state today.
To the theists: I have many classmates/colleagues/teachers/friends/acquaintances/strangers convincing me to believe in their God, and join their brotherhood. Islam, various branches of Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Taoism, you name it. They have shown me countless long, long anti-atheistic arguments, mainly to prove God really exists. However, my concern is not whether God exists or not, but the question which I have asked many of them:
I do agree some just believe for the sake of believing/parents/society/fear of the after life. I believe that Jesus Christ is the real deal due to the prophecies made ages ago before Jesus was born and he fulfilled it. The old testament predicted Jesus's coming (earliest ones are around 500 years before He was born if I am right). That's one of the source (and anchor) of my faith in His existence. YouTube documentary if you are interested.
my apologies for the quotes within a quote. just noticed my error after typing it all out. I do hope the answers are sufficient and are not wrong. If I did make a mistake in my interpretation, I welcome correction from all.
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
QUOTE(Cryptic @ May 6 2015, 09:24 PM)
If my heart is so hard and full of vengeance then yes it would be an issue. Besides, it's not as if I am sinless, who am I to judge.
Easy for you to say, but can you really face up to that such a person for eternity? Think about that for a moment.
Saying that you are not 'sinless' is an excuse. What have you done that is so bad that other people would not want to see you for eternity? People can't help stepping on other's toes in life, but we generally don't go around killing their entire families.
Meanwhile, people who have done far less, like Buddhist nuns for example...living simple pious lives but still going to burn in hell anyway cos whoops...wrong religion.
Which is why I say this concept is all messed up. I'm not saying that there should be no forgiveness, but this catch-all forgive-all sounds like it was something that was crafted for the sake of getting a lot of converts.
And judging people for the sake of not believing is stupidly harsh to the point that I really just can't respect any deity who thought of this dumb concept.
Easy for you to say, but can you really face up to that such a person for eternity? Think about that for a moment.
Saying that you are not 'sinless' is an excuse. What have you done that is so bad that other people would not want to see you for eternity? People can't help stepping on other's toes in life, but we generally don't go around killing their entire families.
Meanwhile, people who have done far less, like Buddhist nuns for example...living simple pious lives but still going to burn in hell anyway cos whoops...wrong religion.
Which is why I say this concept is all messed up. I'm not saying that there should be no forgiveness, but this catch-all forgive-all sounds like it was something that was crafted for the sake of getting a lot of converts.
And judging people for the sake of not believing is stupidly harsh to the point that I really just can't respect any deity who thought of this dumb concept.
Just saying...
like I said, I will be very tempted to punish him.
QUOTE(Cryptic @ May 5 2015, 08:46 PM)
erm no you didn't? If that really happens to me, I pray for the strength to overcome it and forgive him because Lord knows I will be very tempted to not forgive him and to inflict pain in him instead.
But if he were to truly repent, I guess my answer may be different but then I do not know.
IF I am right. It's not about the fact of whether we did more or less, its the mere fact that we did and we have a tendency to sin. we have a tendency to sin from birth; put 3 kids together and a toy in the center and you will see sin. Jesus was sent here not to judge but to save us as mentioned previously.
like i said in the previous post, I'm not too well versed with scripture.
like I said, I will be very tempted to punish him. But if he were to truly repent, I guess my answer may be different but then I do not know.
IF I am right. It's not about the fact of whether we did more or less, its the mere fact that we did and we have a tendency to sin. we have a tendency to sin from birth; put 3 kids together and a toy in the center and you will see sin. Jesus was sent here not to judge but to save us as mentioned previously.
like i said in the previous post, I'm not too well versed with scripture.
It is actually better that no messenger was sent. Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
The problem with the God of religious scripture is He never made a good example of Himself in regards to his own teaching. God has all the power to stop this whole mess of torment yet did nothing. He should take back this verse and swallow it upside down. James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
Just like a bunch of justin beiber fans trying to convince me how awesome beiber is. What should i tell them? It's nice to worship her but pls keep it to yourself. Thanks.
It is actually better that no messenger was sent. Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
The problem with the God of religious scripture is He never made a good example of Himself in regards to his own teaching. God has all the power to stop this whole mess of torment yet did nothing. He should take back this verse and swallow it upside down. James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
1. There is a reason for all these that has happened, I did explained this in our Christian Fellowship thread.
2. If He were to do that, you would have not existed. Neither would your parents, siblings, family. But I need to give a correct perspective about God, He did do SOMETHING and that is the Gospel of the Grace of Christ.
1. There is a reason for all these that has happened, I did explained this in our Christian Fellowship thread.
Link me the page.
QUOTE
2. If He were to do that, you would have not existed. Neither would your parents, siblings, family. But I need to give a correct perspective about God, He did do SOMETHING and that is the Gospel of the Grace of Christ.
I’m perfectly fine with not existing if the probability of me and others going to end up in eternal hell remains open. In analogy, will you bother having children if it was diagnosed that your child will have a high possibility of inheriting some serious genetic disorder leading to hellish abnormality?
I think generally every religion teaches that. To talk kindly with one another, instead of talking maliciously.
Because deacons/deaconesses are people of position in the Church so they have to be accountable to represent who they are.
Nothing to do with “teach or to assume authority over a man”. That as I've mentioned is context to husband and wife.
Your reason says women are not permit to assume authority over a man because they are control freak and manipulative…correct me if i’m wrong. I’ve to admit the arguments bolded earlier failed to hit the point but nonetheless the context is psychologically related. A person who is temperate/worthy of respect/trustworthy is a person who has self-control/knows moderation thus it is not incoherent to assume that such person will not have intolerable inclination to impose selfish desires upon others.
And it is not restricted to household affair if one read the context of 1 Conrinthians 14.
Link me the page. I’m perfectly fine with not existing if the probability of me and others going to end up in eternal hell remains open. In analogy, will you bother having children if it was diagnosed that your child will have a high possibility of inheriting some serious genetic disorder leading to hellish abnormality?
You're not the only one, everyone is together in this, even I'm on the way to hell if I did not accept Christ as my savior. It's bit long winded to explain but here's the short summary of it, my take of it.
I believe there are 2 reasons why God allowed things to move on and not snap his finger as you said;
1. We are given his breath of life which is eternal. What is eternal cannot be destroyed, The essence of our spirit. Even though the body may rot and all that but the spirit lives on. Did God made a mistake? Definitely not. I'm glad to have existed and so many others. Glad to have experience love, pain and all that. Is it worth it? Yes IMO. And there are some so pained in life, they wished they've never existed. My point being, we are responsible for our own actions, not God. God did not create the problem, we did. To pin and blame it on God is just irresponsible and lazy way of excuse, IMO.
2. So that we understand what would happen if anyone is tempted to repeat the same mistake that Adam and Eve did in New Heaven and Earth, is it worth to go through all these crazy cycle again? Definitely not, IMO. Point is, this world will be destroyed and a New one will emerge from God.
QUOTE(loud @ May 7 2015, 01:13 PM)
Your reason says women are not permit to assume authority over a man because they are control freak and manipulative…correct me if i’m wrong. I’ve to admit the arguments bolded earlier failed to hit the point but nonetheless the context is psychologically related. A person who is temperate/worthy of respect/trustworthy is a person who has self-control/knows moderation thus it is not incoherent to assume that such person will not have intolerable inclination to impose selfish desires upon others.
And it is not restricted to household affair if one read the context of 1 Conrinthians 14.
1. No it's not based on that. We all have to learn humility and be submissive one way or another. Just like how we need to learn to submit to authority in hierarchy in corporate organization, same principal in this.
2. No, again, The Greek word, guné 1 Corinthians 14:34 is referring to wife. What is my basis? It's in the following verse.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.g
Do you see the word "OWN husband". The word own emphasize, so it's not referring to woman in general.
This post has been edited by unknown warrior: May 7 2015, 02:24 PM
You're not the only one, everyone is together in this, even I'm on the way to hell if I did not accept Christ as my savior. It's bit long winded to explain but here's the short summary of it, my take of it.
I believe there are 2 reasons why God allowed things to move on and not snap his finger as you said;
1. We are given his breath of life which is eternal. What is eternal cannot be destroyed, The essence of our spirit. Even though the body may rot and all that but the spirit lives on. Did God made a mistake? Definitely not. I'm glad to have existed and so many others. Glad to have experience love, pain and all that. Is it worth it? Yes IMO. And there are some so pained in life, they wished they've never existed. My point being, we are responsible for our own actions, not God. God did not create the problem, we did. To pin and blame it on God is just irresponsible and lazy way of excuse, IMO. 2. So that we understand what would happen if anyone is tempted to repeat the same mistake that Adam and Eve did in New Heaven and Earth, is it worth to go through all these crazy cycle again? Definitely not, IMO. Point is, this world will be destroyed and a New one will emerge from God.
It is clear that it boils down to how one understands “freewill” in relation to good/bad and responsibility. To be frank, good and evil is actually a conventional term. Harmful desires/actions basically arisen upon 2 conditions; 1. The failure to realize/understand its true consequence. 2. The failure to remember/be mindful of what has been learned. And both of these are beyond one’s control. Although one can train oneself to be mindful or pursue more knowledge but that motivation/intention(to train/pursue) has to be supported by some extent of realization to begin with...which has to do with natural selection/exposure thus the argument supporting freewill and absolute individual responsibility actually overlooked the whole context of human behavior.
In summary, God is actually cursing those who have poor understanding and memory to eternal hell.
Furthermore, here’s what the bible implies about freewill;
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
James 4:13-15 13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”
John 15:16 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
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1. No it's not based on that. We all have to learn humility and be submissive one way or another. Just like how we need to learn to submit to authority in hierarchy in corporate organization, same principal in this.
2. No, again, The Greek word, guné 1 Corinthians 14:34 is referring to wife. What is my basis? It's in the following verse.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.g
Do you see the word "OWN husband". The word own emphasize, so it's not referring to woman in general.
But the fact women pastor/deacon preaching men remains as controversial till today.
This post has been edited by loud: May 7 2015, 02:43 PM
It is clear that it boils down to how one understands “freewill” in relation to good/bad and responsibility. To be frank, good and evil is actually a conventional term. Harmful desires/actions basically arisen upon 2 conditions; 1. The failure to realize/understand its true consequence. 2. The failure to remember/be mindful of what has been learned. And both of these are beyond one’s control. Although one can train oneself to be mindful or pursue more knowledge but that motivation/intention(to train/pursue) has to be supported by some extent of realization to begin with...which has to do with natural selection/exposure thus the argument supporting freewill and absolute individual responsibility actually overlooked the whole context of human behavior.
In summary, God is actually cursing those who have poor understanding and memory to eternal hell.
That is not true. Actually you got it wrong, it's not this popular Atheist saying, God created Heaven and Hell and either you (force) believe in me or you go to hell. You have to erase that misconception out of your mind.
All of us have been separated from God by the corruption of sin, pass on from Adam. Satan deceived Eve. God held Eve, Adam and Satan accountable. but more importantly God held Satan responsible and condemn primarily him to eternal hell, whereas God killed an animal in sin atonement for Adam and Eve and also immediately executed a saving plan for all human kind. Does that make God seem like He wants people to go to Hell? Definately not and I have tons of other scripture verse to prove that as well. But why is it that, that there are people who go to hell? The answer is simple, it's because they rejected God and his saving plan, God is a gentleman, He will not force, When anyone rejects Him, Satan will come in and lay claim to that person's spirit and soul. Satan is just innately destructive and evil. And again before you say this, No God did not create Satan. I think I've explained this tons of times, lazy to repeat it.
Another thing is that, Many People have complained this world is messed up. I've seen the comment that the world is so crazy at time, this earth need a reset button. That is evidence the corruption of sin in this world. Well God is going to give us a new heaven and earth. To go there, the corruption of sin have to be removed from us and this is possible only through the blood of Christ, by acknowledging Him as your Saviour and let God change you in his power.
You don't really need rocket scientist mentality to understand this.
God does not hold people like Children and those mentally challenge/Childlike accountable and condemn them to eternal hell.
QUOTE(loud @ May 7 2015, 02:40 PM)
Furthermore, here’s what the bible implies about freewill;
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
James 4:13-15 13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”
John 15:16 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
But the fact women pastor/deacon preaching men remains as controversial till today.
James 4:13-15 is pertaining to future events. The fact that, we don't know what will happen in the future, so God is asking us as Christians, to not boast about the future, saying we will do this or that. This verse is for Christians really. Nothing to do with freewill.
John 15:16 is pertaining to God choosing us to bear fruit. Meaning to exhibit growth spiritually that will manifest his blessing in our lives.
It's controversial when people (sometime Christians even) don't understand the Bible well enough, that is why God appoints teachers to teach, so don't believe blindly what you see on the internet, especially from Anti God sites.
This post has been edited by unknown warrior: May 7 2015, 08:22 PM
That is not true. Actually you got it wrong, it's not this popular Atheist saying, God created Heaven and Hell and either you (force) believe in me or you go to hell. You have to erase that misconception out of your mind.
All of us have been separated from God by the corruption of sin, pass on from Adam. Satan deceived Eve. God held Eve, Adam and Satan accountable. but more importantly God held Satan responsible and condemn primarily him to eternal hell, whereas God killed an animal in sin atonement for Adam and Eve and also immediately executed a saving plan for all human kind. Does that make God seem like He wants people to go to Hell? Definately not and I have tons of other scripture verse to prove that as well. But why is it that, that there are people who go to hell? The answer is simple, it's because they rejected God and his saving plan, God is a gentleman, He will not force, When anyone rejects Him, Satan will come in and lay claim to that person's spirit and soul. Satan is just innately destructive and evil. And again before you say this, No God did not create Satan. I think I've explained this tons of times, lazy to repeat it.
Another thing is that, Many People have complained this world is messed up. I've seen the comment that the world is so crazy at time, this earth need a reset button. That is evidence the corruption of sin in this world. Well God is going to give us a new heaven and earth. To go there, the corruption of sin have to be removed from us and this is possible only through the blood of Christ, by acknowledging Him as your Saviour and let God change you in his power.
You don't really need rocket scientist mentality to understand this.
God does not hold people like Children and those mentally challenge/Childlike accountable and condemn them to eternal hell. ...
I was trying to address this; "My point being, we are responsible for our own actions, not God. God did not create the problem, we did."
You misunderstood my point and take it a few step too far. Let me repeat in another way. Assuming those event spoken in the bible is true and God is real, why do you think Satan choose to do harm? why a person choose to disobey God? Aren't all these fall within the 2 parameters i mentioned; 1. The failure to realize/understand its true consequence. 2. The failure to remember/be mindful of what has been learned.
Please try reflect on your own past experience what is the conditions for any of your harmful action to manifest/persist? I assure you one doesn't need to be mentally challenge to be subjected to those conditions. It has been part of our daily lives.
And don't always blame Satan la, see what James 1:14-15 say:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
It has to do with one's own harmful desire but as i mentioned "harmful desire/action" manifest due to the 2 conditions not because a person senang-senang want to be bad for no reason.
This post has been edited by loud: May 7 2015, 08:48 PM
I was trying to address this; "My point being, we are responsible for our own actions, not God. God did not create the problem, we did."
You misunderstood my point and take it a few step too far. Let me repeat in another way. Assuming those event spoken in the bible is true and God is real, why do you think Satan choose to do harm? why a person choose to reject God? Aren't all these fall within the 2 parameters i mentioned; 1. The failure to realize/understand its true consequence. 2. The failure to remember/be mindful of what has been learned.
Please try reflect on your own past experience what is the conditions for any of your harmful action to manifest/persist? I assure you one doesn't need to be mentally challenge to be subjected to those conditions. It has been part of our daily lives.
And don't always blame Satan la, see what James 1:14-15 say:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
It has to do with one's own harmful desire but as i mentioned "harmful desire/action" manifest due to the 2 conditions not because a person senang-senang want to be bad for no reason.
Yes it's part of our very being because it started from the corruption of sin, passed on from Adam. We are responsible for our own actions.
Why Satan choose to do harm? Because of pride. Why a person choose to reject God? Because of the nature of Sin, Bible term call it the works of the flesh, it is hostile and anti-God.
What I meant was God held Satan accountable and condemn Him to eternal punishment but for Adam and Eve and all man kind, God prepared a Salvation Plan.
Yes it's part of our very being because it started from the corruption of sin, passed on from Adam. We are responsible for our own actions.
Why Satan choose to do harm? Because of pride. Why a person choose to reject God? Because of the nature of Sin, Bible term call it the works of the flesh, it is hostile and anti-God.
What I meant was God held Satan accountable and condemn Him to eternal punishment but for Adam and Eve and all man kind, God prepared a Salvation Plan.
Neither pride nor sin(tendency to do harm) can arise in one's mind if one had truly recognized right/wrong and being mindful of it. In other words, pride and sin is conditioned by ignorance and forgetfulness... is anyone with these 2 underlying tendencies deserved eternal damnation?
Joined: Jan 2015
From: Lowyat.net Saiya Status: Super Saiyan Blue
QUOTE(lshsl @ May 7 2015, 10:02 PM)
What Is A Freethinker? - By Dan Barker
free-think-er n. A person who forms opinions about religion on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief. Freethinkers include atheists, agnostics and rationalists. . . . be tested, discarded or adopted. Freethinkers see no pride in the blind maintenance of ancient superstitions or self-effacing prostration before divine tyrants known only through primitive "revelations." Freethought is respectable. Freethought is truly free.
So, from the conclusion, here, the freethinker only believe in Dan Barker, Clarence Darrow, Barbara Walker and others mentioned.
It seems like you guys are no different with people with religion. we have our reference, you have too.
I thought free thinker become a free thinker himself after he himself live for a hundreds of years, have seen everything, understand everything, able to comprehend the kongcept of the universe to be able to acknowledge yourself as one of the freethinker.
you guys are not atheist, you guys are lost, something happened at some point in your life that made you a disbeliever.
This post has been edited by akhmedisonline: May 7 2015, 10:27 PM
Apr 26 2015, 07:32 PM, updated 11y ago
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